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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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I know that a lot of people believe Jon will come backe, but I don't think even the greatest sorcerers can bring back a burned corpse. From Jon's last chapter in ADWD Jon was stabbed several times,by several different people. There is no way he is alive, and they will have burned his corpse. I know that GRRM built his character up, and there was much speculation about his parentage, but I believe Jon is done. I don't know who GRRM will use to give us the perspective of the wall, perhaps Sam will come back, but I don't think Jon will be alive in any of the further books.

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again the propecies...

" Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. ... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. ...mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. ...mother of dragons, bride of fire..."

whyever she is the daughter of death...?

the blue-eyed king who cast no shadow and has the red sword, maybe this glowing like sunset is referred to the person and not the sword, so we would have a wight (blue eyes and no shadow) at the same time glowing - if this sight is not worth a song aobut ... another hint might be both bloodraves dragon and ghost with their ice appearance but fire eyes.

worse would be if jon is the corpse at the prow of the ship...

was it considered that not just the blue flower and the reference to lyanna is important, but also that`s growing out of a chink? might chink indicate that the wall is breaking?

"Jon tells Sam of a recurring dream he has of Winterfell. He dreams he is walking in a long, empty hall in the castle, his voice echoing around him and no one is answering. He is looking for someone, but he isn't sure who, sometimes it is his father, sometimes Robb, or Arya, or even Benjen. But he never finds anyone, the castle is always empty. Even the ravens are gone, and the stables are full of bones. It scares him, and he runs around looking for someone. Then he finds himself in front of the door to the crypts, and he knows he has to go down there, but he doesn't want to. He's afraid of what is waiting for him. Not the old Kings of Winter, but something else. He screams that he is not a Stark, that it isn't his place, but it is no good and he feels he has to go down, so he starts, with no torch to light his way. It gets darker and darker, until he wants to scream, and then he wakes up."

something`s down in these crypts and it`s not the kings of winter. i don`t think it`s a coincidence that they are called this way at this point. a gift from the kings of summer?

"Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared."

maybe it`s the sword. omnious lightbringer. or maybe the crypts bzw. the hot springs are the place to forge it.

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Will try not to re-state points made many times over, but I do think that in spite of at least two really grievous stab wounds, Jon could legitimately come close to death but still survive. The reasons I think this (please forgive paraphrasing as my book is on loan):

  1. It’s pretty cold up at Castle Black – even dire stab wounds will bleed less quickly in the cold. Bran has a vision of Jon lying on a bed with his skin getting pale and hard as warmth leaves him, and he obviously will be in a fight for his life, but (see number 2) …
  2. Martin has established a precedent for the direwolves helping the Starks heal. In GoT everyone fully expected Bran to die. I am pretty sure that it was stated that Bran seemed markedly better when the windows were open and he could hear Summer outside. He was comatose but it seemed that his ability to leave his body and live within Summer played a big part in his survival and emergence from the coma.
  3. Jon didn’t feel the fourth stab wound because it was getting so cold … this could have just been approaching death, but the terrible cold is also a common sign that Others/wights are near. A couple of threads made the point that the assassins would not leave the job half-done, but I am hoping that his assassins were distracted from completing their goal at the last second ... perhaps the two bodies Jon had stowed in the cells re-animated and started running amok long enough for someone to get to Jon?

Numerous posters have made the great point that if Jon needs to be “reborn” as AA then his death can’t really be a fake … which makes me wonder “how dead is dead?” Does “mostly dead” count? Comatose to the point where your friends think you’re dead, put you on a pile of kindling, and light the match?

I admit that I am hoping for a resolution to this problem that doesn’t involve the Kiss of Fire from Mel. I don’t want to see Jon suffer the same kind of slow deterioration as Dondarrion, although he was resurrected multiple times, and the ill effects are probably incremental.

As for Melisandre, I loved the peek inside her head, and the evidence that her power is limited and her visions potentially flawed. She is definitely guilty of interpreting her visions in a way that conveniently reflects her current needs. My turn to pose a Crackpot Theory … sorry, I can’t resist! What if she used the glamour to assume Jon’s form so that it is her who gets stabbed, not him? (He’s been wounded in previous books, including an arrow to the thigh -- have his wounds ever smoked before?) I can totally imagine the real Jon Snow walking out into the yard and seeing himself on the ground surrounded by crows with daggers!! If she finally figured out what it means that she looks for Stannis in the flames and sees Jon instead, then she would be sacrificing herself to save AA in a very powerful way.

It would be a drastic departure from the POV, and we do hear his memories as he is stabbed, so mine is truly a Crackpot Theory, but I still find it entertaining to contemplate that possibility.

I’m new to these threads, and am having so much fun reading and posting! Sure is a good way to get my fix between books!

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I don't know if it's been said but a Stark has never died while their wolf survives.

Lady - she dies before Sansa

Grey Wind - dies at the same time as Robb

But the prologue of DANCE is meant for SOMETHING. Ghost is alive for a reason. Jon said Ghosts name at the end for a reason.

I'm sorry but Jon's character arc isn't over. Bastard boy, becomes LC then dies after 6 months on the job. After all those POV'S dedicated to him over the course of 4 books. Sorry, not buying it for a second.

Especially since if George wanted him to die he would have slit his throat and not have said, "Oh, you think he's dead do you?" When a reporter asked him why he killed Jon.

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When I read the chapter, I was like: No way... no FUCKING WAY! This is great! What I've been hoping for since the beginning of the series has finally happened!

And I am sorely disappointed to see so many of you believing that Jon will be back and that he should be back. I hope he won't. It would be like reviving Ned. Baby Aegon not being dead was bad enough :angry2:

If Jon is revived, or ends up not dying, it will be a spit in the face of all that's good and original in ASOIAF.

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I agree with the prevailing opinion that he will live through this in some manner. Having said that GRRM has saved so many characters who have been left on a cliffhanger it may be time to change that.

If he is dead I will be upset, I have hoped that he and Arya would meet again at some point, they both need that reconnection.

The nature of service at the wall generally precludes the type of suffering that some want Jon to have went through. The enemy is pretty black and White(before Jon callenges that with the wildings). Before becoming LC he was simply not important enough to create enemies outside of petty squabbles, such as Thorne. All the other characters who have suffered were either people of import, or in situations out of their control. The wall is a life of anonymity for the majority of its members.

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I just had to reread the melisandre chapter after stumbling into this discussion and I just wanted to see what everyone thought about this, it's from her chapter, pg 408.

"limned in tongues of red and orange" -I thought limned was a typo til I looked it up.

1. Depict or describe in painting or words.

2. Suffuse or highlight (something) with a bright color or light.

When I read the chapter were Victarion got his fiery arm, it made me think of this. Except maybe Jon's whole body will be like that. I'll have to find that Victarion chapter and reread it to be sure.

"Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again" -It could just be showing her that he's a warg, not sure if she already knew that about him. OR something else... like his consciousness in ghost while he's "dead" then back to his body if she revives it.

Limned in flames on his face makes him sound like one of the slaves that serve R'hollor in Volantis. That was my first reaction to Mel's vision. Perhaps he becomes a slave or a true servant of the Lord of Light after his revival? Similar to how Victarion's religious beliefs shifted when his hand was saved by a red priest.

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Black ice could be his skin cracked and preserved like the red priests know how to. But I doubt it's real ice - it probably just looks like ice (like scales?) or is a metaphor. (Or he's warged into Drogon. Crazy.)

On another note:

Jon's last chapter, page 912

Then he heard the shouting ... and a roar so loud it seemed to shake the Wall. "That come from Hardin's Tower, m'lord," Horse reported. He might have said more, but the scream cut him off. Val, was Jon's first thought. But it was no woman's scream. That man is in mortal agony.

Could this be the horn of winter? Could the wall be falling and the rest of the events be a consequence of the protection of the wall failing? Because he says "that man", it dilutes my theory. But we don't know what the horn of winter sounds like, and Euron's horn sounded horrific and un-horn like, which might be a trait of all magical horns. It could be Val killing Ser Patrek but I feel like his roar wouldn't be so loud it would shake the wall. (After all he's not a Lannister.)

A couple paragraphs down, Jon thinks "A horn, I need a horn."

Jon had his throat slashed at by Wick, but it barely grazed him and made him bleed a bit. Jon unarmed Wick. Afterward, Wick backed away and put his hands up, as if to say "not me".

Odd, that he would have that body language. If you want to kill the Lord Commander, you don't change your mind. It's kind of an all or nothing thing.

Men are screaming, Marsh comes up, stabs Jon, while crying (another odd body language sign). He whispers Ghost and thinks of Arya, and here's where it gets interesting.

After the third stab, he falls face-first into the snow. Then he says, he never felt the fourth knife, Only the cold...

His face is in the snow so he can't see that he was stabbed a fourth time, he never felt the fourth knife, so how does he know there was a fourth knife? POV is very important and we never see or perceive more than our characters do. The simple explaination is that he warged into someone else and saw his own body getting stabbed a fourth time.

I think these Night's Watch men dislike Jon, but I don't think they would kill him like this. It would be much more convenient to do it while on a ranging or in private, and blame it on a wight or wildling. The fact that wick put his hands up and, and that Marsh was crying, indicates to me that there was sorcery going on. Maybe this is the result of the horn being blown and the wall falling, or a skinchanger somewhere deciding Jon's time is up.

Regardless it is clear that Jon is aware of the fourth stab, yet doesnt see it or feel it, so his awareness must come from another set of eyes.

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Great discussion.

Whatever Jon's fate, I think he deserved the assassination (attempt); the decision to march south, the rousing speech + his clear enjoyment of its reception, and (most amazingly to me) the failure to immediately tell his guest the Queen that her husband is apparently dead (instead re-planning for hours and then going ahead with the shield hall meeting before remembering...!!!)-- it all just seemed like a portrait of an emotional, immature, selfish teenager not quite ready for command--the boy, not the man.

On a speculative note, it does seem pretty clear that Jon's AA and will be reborn (or at least, it's pretty clear that we're meant to *think* he's AA...); if so, I hope he spends a good long time stuck in Ghost's body before rebirth--kid still needs to mature a little bit.

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If Jon is revived, or ends up not dying, it will be a spit in the face of all that's good and original in ASOIAF.

Nah, he has to be reborn so he can go dark side and become the anti-AA with spiffy black-ice armor and battle Dany (the real AA) with badass lightsabersbringers at the top of the shattered Wall. So many people seem to assume that the "song of ice and fire" is a happy song with a happy ending, and that Jon and Dany will end up married and make happy little babies.

Jon Snow for Dark Lord, 2016. It is known.

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Nah, he has to be reborn so he can go dark side and become the anti-AA with spiffy black-ice armor and battle Dany (the real AA) with badass lightsabersbringers at the top of the shattered Wall. So many people seem to assume that the "song of ice and fire" is a happy song with a happy ending, and that Jon and Dany will end up married and make happy little babies.

Jon Snow for Dark Lord, 2016. It is known.

Think that is too dark a twist for even GRRM, Jon's the only POV character who has been fighting the others since the start... come to think of it he is still the only POV character fighting the others.

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I hope he spends a good long time stuck in Ghost's body before rebirth--kid still needs to mature a little bit.

Jon tried to kill a boy from the first Jon's chapter. Bowen Marsh simply helped him a little bit. Don't blame stewards.

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Think that is too dark a twist for even GRRM, Jon's the only POV character who has been fighting the others since the start... come to think of it he is still the only POV character fighting the others.

Well, he was until he snapped and decided he should lead a wildling host to Winterfell instead, presumably to save the "sister" who the letter made clear wasn't actually at Winterfell... At the end of aDwD, the only one we could have expected to still be fighting the Others is Tormund Giantsbane, who has to lead the ranging to Hardhome. No, Jon has gone insane by the end of the book, and that's even before he gets murdered by his sworn brothers. A little quality undead time in the ice cells and he'll be all ready to rise again as the dark lord.

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Well, he was until he snapped and decided he should lead a wildling host to Winterfell instead, presumably to save the "sister" who the letter made clear wasn't actually at Winterfell... At the end of aDwD, the only one we could have expected to still be fighting the Others is Tormund Giantsbane, who has to lead the ranging to Hardhome. No, Jon has gone insane by the end of the book, and that's even before he gets murdered by his sworn brothers. A little quality undead time in the ice cells and he'll be all ready to rise again as the dark lord.

I can't tell if your joking or not, but i'm pretty sure its shown that the undead don't rise in the ice cells due to the magic of the wall so....

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If Jon lives and becomes AA or whatever it would in my eyes mean that the whole thing about ASoIaF being unique was a lie.

I think you can rest easy. I don't see Jon becoming AA or even tPtwP. I do think he's a Targaryen bastard. The ADWD bits about Eddard and a fisherman's daughter don't dissuade me.

If he has any part of the AA/PtwP, then it's linked to the three-headed dragon motto/belief/prophecy of House Targaryen. Rhaegar and Aemon seem to have been in contact on this score. If that's correct, then the emergence of Aegon means, imo, the three-headed dragon is Danaerys, Aegon, and one other. That other might be Jon, child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

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I can't tell if your joking or not, but i'm pretty sure its shown that the undead don't rise in the ice cells due to the magic of the wall so....

True, only the dark lord would be able to rise in the ice cells, so...

Anyway, I'm joking. I don't really believe Martin will turn Jon into Darth Vader. ;)

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If that's correct, then the emergence of Aegon means, imo, the three-headed dragon is Danaerys, Aegon, and one other. That other might be Jon, child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Dany is the Slavers Bay, Aegon is in Westeros fighting for his throne, Jon at the Wall. How can Dany deliver her dragons to the Wall if she can't control and ride all of them. I think Tyrion would be rather a dragon rider than Jon. He closer to the dragons than Snow.

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