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[ADWD spoilers] Jon Snow's Fate


Ahmrogar

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Whatever Jon's fate, I think he deserved the assassination (attempt)

Just curious if this is a popular view or if most people think otherwise. Seems like everyone else is focused on his resurrection and less on whether or not he deserved to die.

I've always had a feeling of dread about Jon, all the way back in GoT when he wanted to join the NW after he witnessed the ranger's beheading. It struck me as odd to want to be part of something that enforces its codes with executions. Throughout the novels I feared the same would happen to Jon, and he would be beheaded for desertion in the same place as Gared. Can anyone back me up on clues that Martin gave us throughout the novels about Jon's death?

For the record I don't think Gared deserved to die. Same as Jon. The NW as it stands, however, needs to kick the fucking bucket.

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Dany is the Slavers Bay, Aegon is in Westeros fighting for his throne, Jon at the Wall. How can Dany deliver her dragons to the Wall if she can't control and ride all of them. I think Tyrion would be rather a dragon rider than Jon. He closer to the dragons than Snow.

We've at least one more book before he has to get them all together. Tyrion went from Westeros to Slaver's Bay. I don't know why Dany, Tyrion, and the rest can't make the return trip.

I also don't know that who wants to be a dragon rider matters at all. Danaerys is able to ride Drogon. Whether she's also able to ride the others, we don't know. She obviously has some control over them, or she'd have suffered a similar fate to Quentyn when he tried to free Viserion and Rhaegal. But whether that ability is because of some Targaryen heritage (as she seems to believe, I think) or not is something we'll have to see. Perhaps the dragons are intelligent to some degree and choose their own riders.

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Danaerys is able to ride Drogon. Whether she's also able to ride the others, we don't know. She obviously has some control over them, or she'd have suffered a similar fate to Quentyn when he tried to free Viserion and Rhaegal.

We know that Dany said that no one in the history of Targaryen reign ever could ride two dragons. Not even Aegon I. He only rode the one, and his sisters rode the other two.
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Great discussion.

Whatever Jon's fate, I think he deserved the assassination (attempt); the decision to march south, the rousing speech + his clear enjoyment of its reception, and (most amazingly to me) the failure to immediately tell his guest the Queen that her husband is apparently dead (instead re-planning for hours and then going ahead with the shield hall meeting before remembering...!!!)-- it all just seemed like a portrait of an emotional, immature, selfish teenager not quite ready for command--the boy, not the man.

On a speculative note, it does seem pretty clear that Jon's AA and will be reborn (or at least, it's pretty clear that we're meant to *think* he's AA...); if so, I hope he spends a good long time stuck in Ghost's body before rebirth--kid still needs to mature a little bit.

Well, milage varies I guess. Jon has shown a remarkable maturity at times, far more than his years. But, yes, he's still 17 and certain things set him off especially when he's feeling guilty for not being able to save - or avenge his father and brother and wants to rescue "Arya" from a fate worse than death. Ramsay gave him an excuse, flimsy as it was, and he went for it. He's not perfect, that's for sure. I think it's more a matter of Stark Honor blinding him to what was pragmatic rather than his age, however. If immaturity is a reason to assassinate the LC, what display of immaturity lead to LC Mormont's death by his own men?

I think Jon's a visionary who tried to make too many changes too quickly and the old guard didn't understand it or was unable to adjust. Maybe it's a case of his attackers being too and set in their ways, or too envious, rather than Jon being too young.

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I've always had a feeling of dread about Jon, all the way back in GoT when he wanted to join the NW after he witnessed the ranger's beheading. It struck me as odd to want to be part of something that enforces its codes with executions. Throughout the novels I feared the same would happen to Jon, and he would be beheaded for desertion in the same place as Gared. Can anyone back me up on clues that Martin gave us throughout the novels about Jon's death?

For the record I don't think Gared deserved to die. Same as Jon. The NW as it stands, however, needs to kick the fucking bucket.

I always assumed that he joined the Night's Watch as he felt that he didn't really have a place at Winterfell as a bastard. His talks with Tyrion and the departure of Ned, Arya and Stansa adds to that.
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There is plenty of evidence that points to Jon warging to Ghost in his last moment. I don't rule out that Jon indeed dies and loses his body, thus spending a chunk of time as his direwolf in search of a body in tWoW. And others have suggested that from Ghost's body he may become a man again ("Now he was a man, now a wolf, and now a man"). The only question would be how he transforms from Ghost to a man and also whether that terminates Jon's link to Rhaegar + Lyanna/Prince who was promised. It sounds like a decent alternative to the predictable resurrection through Melisandre but I doubt it's the way GRRM will go.

When I look at Bran's vision of Jon "in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard" I think this means that after the attack on Jon the wall becomes disorganized as to what should be done to Jon's body that they place him in bed and wait for him to heal/die. Then assuming Jon is warged as Ghost in that time, Jon's body without his soul is most likely doomed until Ghost/Jon finds a way to revive his body/get a new one.

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I think regardless of if he's dead or not, his watch has ended.

Maybe a good way to resolve his torn feelings between duty and hearth/home?

Well said. If he's dead then his watch has ended...if not, he'll be free to lead the wildlings to take back Winterfell. Anyone know when the next book is coming out? :wideeyed:

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We know that Dany said that no one in the history of Targaryen reign ever could ride two dragons. Not even Aegon I. He only rode the one, and his sisters rode the other two.

Aegon wasn't the "Mother of Dragons." He wasn't present at their birth, let alone key in that birth taking place.

Dany's understanding of Targaryen history is also limited pretty much to what Viserys told her.

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I've been reading these forums for a couple of days after I had finished a Dance With Dragons. Paying attention to the what other people have been feeling about the stabbing of Jon Snow. I was doubtful of the Jon demise and what affects it might bring. My immediate reaction was hes not dead. I told myself its clear in the words GRRM used to express Jons stabbing. I knew i didnt actually believe what I was telling myself. I felt this way because i did not and don't want Jon to die. I was having trouble explaining my meaning since death isn't true if someone is brought back. So from this point on a true death is never coming back for an infinite amount of time. This has been bugging me for a while a lot of people are saying oh death its just not what it used to be. You know SHOCKING! death should be shocking right? well the true death is SHOCKING! If Jon were to actually be truly dead it would be SHOCKING! but a damn shame too. Anyhow my point is never did it say Jon Snow is gone and dead. So the idea that you can apply 'death has lost its shocking nature' to this subject. Its a complete and udder fallacy its a cliffhanger not a death. Not yet anyhow...

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I've been reading these forums for a couple of days after I had finished a Dance With Dragons. Paying attention to the what other people have been feeling about the stabbing of Jon Snow. I was doubtful of the Jon demise and what affects it might bring. My immediate reaction was hes not dead. I told myself its clear in the words GRRM used to express Jons stabbing. I knew i didnt actually believe what I was telling myself. I felt this way because i did not and don't want Jon to die. I was having trouble explaining my meaning since death isn't true if someone is brought back. So from this point on a true death is never coming back for an infinite amount of time. This has been bugging me for a while a lot of people are saying oh death its just not what it used to be. You know SHOCKING! death should be shocking right? well the true death is SHOCKING! If Jon were to actually be truly dead it would be SHOCKING! but a damn shame too. Anyhow my point is never did it say Jon Snow is gone and dead. So the idea that you can apply 'death has lost its shocking nature' to this subject. Its a complete and udder fallacy its a cliffhanger not a death. Not yet anyhow...

Alright, I don't mean to be a troll, and I certainly have no opinion on whether Snow is actually dead, but I wanted to offer this: I would prefer that Jon Snow were dead. Maybe martin forgot what he himself said about Gandalf; I like the bloodthirsty martin of old.

Also, too, off-topic, but did Martin leave us hints that maybe Snow's mother is a fisherman's daughter? I mean, wow, Ned was a lady's man--potentially having affairs with both Ashara and a fisherman's daughter and potentially fathering a bastard with each. I knew he was good with his sword, . . . (p.s., loved the reference to Brandon Stark's bloody sword by Lady Dustin).

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Jon had his throat slashed at by Wick, but it barely grazed him and made him bleed a bit. Jon unarmed Wick. Afterward, Wick backed away and put his hands up, as if to say "not me".

Odd, that he would have that body language. If you want to kill the Lord Commander, you don't change your mind. It's kind of an all or nothing thing.

Men are screaming, Marsh comes up, stabs Jon, while crying (another odd body language sign). He whispers Ghost and thinks of Arya, and here's where it gets interesting.

After the third stab, he falls face-first into the snow. Then he says, he never felt the fourth knife, Only the cold...

Is there anyone who's on board with me thinking Borroq reached into the brothers and had them stab Jon? Marsh is crying(straining), wick is in denial, Jon can't pull out his sword. C'mon there's a skinchanger in all this. Tormund betrayed Jon, an answer to Jon's betrayal. Think Red Wedding. And in no way do I think Jon stays dead from this, Mel told him of the fires. The fires in this prophecy are pretty clear and unavoidable, which makes her AA vision unavoidable too. Jon and Mel are married characters now, he won't have the Davos struggle with her Rhollor either, goodbye old gods, Jon.

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Don't know if this has been discussed, and i won't read through 21 pages, I just won't.

Mel said from the beginning that she saw in her fires that Jon would get stabbed, so that didn't come as a big surprise. But she said he would be betrayed by the people that "smiled at his face" (paraphrasing here). Marsh as well as Yarwick never "smiled" at him, something Jon himself reflected on in their last meeting, they gave him their honest opinions and didn't suck up to him.

At first I thought it would be one of his (former) friends, but he sent them all away. The only one that smiled towards Jon was Tormund with his "gap-toothed smile"... When that dawned on me i was sure it would be him, yet it wasn't? Doesn't really make sense imo.

Anyway there is no way Jon is dead/will stay dead. GRRM can try i guess, but we know him by now.

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I don't like to immediately jump to the magical/mystical when these things happen. We only know for a fact Jon was stabbed three times (the first one was the one he avoided). People have been known to survive a lot more than three stab wounds from daggers, it will depend where they hit - the stomach and the back are the only definite wounds. Mel's men or even the wildlings may have intervened to prevent more people adding to those three wounds. I would prefer to see Jon survive and recover as a person might from such injuries rather than have another "dead" person walking around. Extraordinary strength and will to live are more appealing than resurrection by magic or alchemy.

I also think Jon deserved the attempted execution. He had become vain and arrogant as Lord Commander. He assembled councils only to confirm his belief that what he was doing was correct. When people disagreed he dismissed their views. He also stated his intention to desert. He knows the penalty for desertion. Don't get me wrong, Jon's my favourite character, but he wielded power like everyone else in the series (badly) with the exception, strangely, of Robert who was at least smart enough to delegate decision-making to wiser people.

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Jon's death was forshadowed since the first book, with his dream about Winterfell crypts and Bran's dream about his body becoming cold. Not to mention Melisandre's vision in the flames. So, having read ADwD after a complete re-read of the series, it has not come to me as a big surprise (when he closed Ghost in his room, he was doomed). I was not shocked, not like Ned's death, the RW, Tywin's death or even the purple wedding.

I guess that he will return in some way, probably in the second half of TWoW, because his storyarch is far from finished and has still a lot to give to the story (I think that the various resurrection in the books were planned to estabilish that it was possibile to bring people back from death, with Jon's resurrection in mind). If he does not return, it's a complete waste and not as compelling as the other major deaths in the series. I read a lot of people who thinks that Jon resurrection is lame: I don't believo so, if it's played well, it could be almost as tragic and sad, just like Bran becoming the greenseer and Arya's training in the FM. It all depends on the price of his return from the death.

Having said that, I'm curios: in your opinion who has stabbed Jon in the back? Who gave the third blow?

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