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Beagle

A map of the world

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Yeah I know, 21MB ;) nice map too, too bad we cant do with it anything, other than use it for personal use. Thanks for uploading a nice big scale map for the rest.

Btw, nice to know that Imageshack dont downscale your images like tinypic do, always had a problem with it.

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A new speculative map. I've marked the limits of canon knowledge and where things start getting speculative.

I also added an equator. This is based on 1) the planet being the same size as Earth and 2) the Wall being on the Arctic Circle. Neither of which may be accurate (GRRM's recent comments about his world being a sort-of alternative reality replacement for Earth may suggest he's backed off from his idea of the planet being larger than Earth, but who knows?).

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A new speculative map. I've marked the limits of canon knowledge and where things start getting speculative.

I also added an equator. This is based on 1) the planet being the same size as Earth and 2) the Wall being on the Arctic Circle. Neither of which may be accurate (GRRM's recent comments about his world being a sort-of alternative reality replacement for Earth may suggest he's backed off from his idea of the planet being larger than Earth, but who knows?).

Werthead. I've submitted a detailed post before explaining why the Wall is not as far north as the Arctic circle.

In brief, it relates to the arctic treeline (the area where the treeline stops and gives way to arctic tundra). In the real world, this is typically about 66 degrees North, with 70 degrees North being achieved where a warm sea current allows it to extend further North.

Even if we take the extreme of 70 degrees North as being the case in Westeros, then the Northenmost edge of the Haunted Forest has to fall on this latitude.

And based on the map, it would appear that this northern edge of the Haunted Forest is approximately 600-800 miles North of the Wall.

Since a degree of latitude is 69 miles in length in the real world, this means that the Wall lies at approximately 60 degrees North, which is about 400 miles South of the Arctic circle.

In the real world, the Wall therefore would therefore pass just north of Oslo and St. Petersburg.

60 degrees North is also the latitude that is exactly twice as far from the equator as from the North pole, theoretically.

Using the 69 miles per degree of latitude measurement, this would mean that the equator is 60 x 69 miles = 4100 miles south of the Wall.

Using the Wall as a measuring stick, we can further estimate that Moat Cailin is approximately 1000 miles south of the Wall, which translates to 15 degrees of latitude, if you divide it by 69 miles. That puts Moat Cailin at 45 degrees North.

In our world, that puts Moat Cailin at the same latitude as parts of Northern France, Belgrade in Serbia, Croatia, Kazakstan, Mongolia,and South Dakota. Interestingly, the entire Germany falls above this latitude, meaning that the southern parts of the North could easily have a climate comparable to Germany.

Moving on, this means that Moat Cailin lies halfway between the North Pole and the equator. It therefore means that Moat Cailin lies 45 x 69 = 3100 miles north of the Equator.

If it is then a further 1500 miles to the south coast of Dorne, it would put Sunspear at 21 degrees North. In our world, that latitude runs through Algeria, Chad, Libya, Mali and Mexico - all desertlike countries with a comparable climate to Dorne.

It would also mean that Dorne is approximately 1500 miles north of the equator, meaning that the equator would run roughly through Sothoryos, about 300 miles south of Naath.

Very similar to your calculation, just with the Wall being 6 degrees further south than your estimate.

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Werthead. I've submitted a detailed post before explaining why the Wall is not as far north as the Arctic circle.

In brief, it relates to the arctic treeline (the area where the treeline stops and gives way to arctic tundra). In the real world, this is typically about 66 degrees North, with 70 degrees North being achieved where a warm sea current allows it to extend further North.

Even if we take the extreme of 70 degrees North as being the case in Westeros, then the Northenmost edge of the Haunted Forest has to fall on this latitude.

And based on the map, it would appear that this northern edge of the Haunted Forest is approximately 600-800 miles North of the Wall.

Since a degree of latitude is 69 miles in length in the real world, this means that the Wall lies at approximately 60 degrees North, which is about 400 miles South of the Arctic circle.

In the real world, the Wall therefore would therefore pass just north of Oslo and St. Petersburg.

60 degrees North is also the latitude that is exactly twice as far from the equator as from the North pole, theoretically.

Using the 69 miles per degree of latitude measurement, this would mean that the equator is 60 x 69 miles = 4100 miles south of the Wall.

Using the Wall as a measuring stick, we can further estimate that Moat Cailin is approximately 1000 miles south of the Wall, which translates to 15 degrees of latitude, if you divide it by 69 miles. That puts Moat Cailin at 45 degrees North.

In our world, that puts Moat Cailin at the same latitude as parts of Northern France, Belgrade in Serbia, Croatia, Kazakstan, Mongolia,and South Dakota. Interestingly, the entire Germany falls above this latitude, meaning that the southern parts of the North could easily have a climate comparable to Germany.

Moving on, this means that Moat Cailin lies halfway between the North Pole and the equator. It therefore means that Moat Cailin lies 45 x 69 = 3100 miles north of the Equator.

If it is then a further 1500 miles to the south coast of Dorne, it would put Sunspear at 21 degrees North. In our world, that latitude runs through Algeria, Chad, Libya, Mali and Mexico - all desertlike countries with a comparable climate to Dorne.

It would also mean that Dorne is approximately 1500 miles north of the equator, meaning that the equator would run roughly through Sothoryos, about 300 miles south of Naath.

Very similar to your calculation, just with the Wall being 6 degrees further south than your estimate.

To summarise, a lot of my estimates were done by glancing at the map onscreen, so the exact distance between the Wall and Moat Cailin, and between Moat Cailin and Sunspear may need refinement, based on printing out the map and measuring the Wall with a ruler and then measuring the distances between the Wall, Moat Cailin and Sunspear.

But my general contention is that based on the arctic Treeline, the Wall is about 600 to 800 miles south of the Arctic treeline, putting it at around 60 degrees North.

Moat Cailin is at about 45 degrees North, and Sunspear at around 25 degrees North.

This puts the Equator approximately 1800 miles South of Dorne, and probably about 600 miles South of Naath, based on a rough glance at the map.

In other words, just shift the Arctic circle and the equator about 6 degrees south on your map.

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Free Northmen: I really respect what you've done there. You've clearly put a lot of thought into that, and as far as I can tell, you are probably right. I would just ask you why you assume Martinworld is so much like the real world. That is, you assume the arctic cricle treeline will be the same, and the a degree of latitue is the same length (I thought Martin claimed Martinworld is bigger than Earth?). Not being rude, just asking.

[quote name=Werthead' timestamp='1334564130' post='3128222'

A new speculative map. I've marked the limits of canon knowledge and where things start getting speculative.

I also added an equator. This is based on 1) the planet being the same size as Earth and 2) the Wall being on the Arctic Circle. Neither of which may be accurate (GRRM's recent comments about his world being a sort-of alternative reality replacement for Earth may suggest he's backed off from his idea of the planet being larger than Earth, but who knows?).

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A new speculative map. I've marked the limits of canon knowledge and where things start getting speculative.

I also added an equator. This is based on 1) the planet being the same size as Earth and 2) the Wall being on the Arctic Circle. Neither of which may be accurate (GRRM's recent comments about his world being a sort-of alternative reality replacement for Earth may suggest he's backed off from his idea of the planet being larger than Earth, but who knows?).

I think that GRRM Languges rule applies here, he simple dont give... and to be honest, there is no reason why he should. I would love to see a full world map that make sense, but I'd rather see him spend more time on the book and less time on everything else.

I mean come on! according to one of his latest interviews, he still overdue for 2 short stories(unrealted to ASOAIF), his help needed on the maps book, he probably still needed for season 2 of AGOT and soon there is Season 3, where he writes a chapter as well and where do it stop? I just want him to finish the books without 6 years gap.

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Is there a reason we're going off topic? No? Then let's stick to the topic of maps.

Re: George's "alternate earth" remark, I believe he might well include "bigger" as part of "alternate".

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Free Northmen: I really respect what you've done there. You've clearly put a lot of thought into that, and as far as I can tell, you are probably right. I would just ask you why you assume Martinworld is so much like the real world. That is, you assume the arctic cricle treeline will be the same, and the a degree of latitue is the same length (I thought Martin claimed Martinworld is bigger than Earth?). Not being rude, just asking.

That is a valid point and one on which I have pondered a great deal. I was working on Werthead's assumption that the planet is more or less equal to ours in size.

I am aware that Martin has stated that is it slightly bigger than Earth. But since we don't know how much bigger, it is really difficult to bring that into any equation.

The methodology of calculating degrees of latitude in a bigger world would remain exactly the same though. All we need to know is how much bigger. If it has a 10% greater circumference, you would simply make each degree of latitude about 77 miles instead of 69, and do the calculation from there.

All I can say, however, is that forests as dense, and as far reaching as the Haunted Forest don't occur above the arctic circle in the real world, except in a few isolated very unique situations, and then they tend to be far sparser than what the Haunted Forest has been desrcibed as.

In fact, in the vast majority of cases, the arctic circle pretty much IS the arctic treeline, meaning that the northern edge of the Haunted Forest could very easily lie exactly on the arctic cricle. I have chosen to allow for a treeline that extends higher than the arctic circle, as it does in a few rare instances on earth, in order to place the arctic circle as far North as can logically be accommodated, based on the above.

But even so, the Wall would have to lie hundreds of miles below the arctic circle, based on said treeline.

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The type of boreal forest that the Haunted Forest comprises of is referred to as the Taiga. Here is an excerpt describing it and its location:

The taiga is the largest biome. The taiga is primarily a coniferous forest (evergreen trees with needles) like the temperate rainforest, but the taiga is located between 50 degrees latitude north and the Arctic circle. Many coniferous trees (evergreens with needles) grow in the taiga. The taiga has fewer animal species than the tropical or temperate deciduous forests.

The taiga is very, very cold in the winter. But when the warm summer comes, the ice and snow melt. The sun shines for days in the summer, because the taiga is near the top of the world.

As you can see from the above, in general, the Taiga ends at the Arctic circle, which would indicate that the Wall has to be significantly south of the arctic circle.

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That is a valid point and one on which I have pondered a great deal. I was working on Werthead's assumption that the planet is more or less equal to ours in size.

I am aware that Martin has stated that is it slightly bigger than Earth. But since we don't know how much bigger, it is really difficult to bring that into any equation.

The methodology of calculating degrees of latitude in a bigger world would remain exactly the same though. All we need to know is how much bigger. If it has a 10% greater circumference, you would simply make each degree of latitude about 77 miles instead of 69, and do the calculation from there.

All I can say, however, is that forests as dense, and as far reaching as the Haunted Forest don't occur above the arctic circle in the real world, except in a few isolated very unique situations, and then they tend to be far sparser than what the Haunted Forest has been desrcibed as.

In fact, in the vast majority of cases, the arctic circle pretty much IS the arctic treeline, meaning that the northern edge of the Haunted Forest could very easily lie exactly on the arctic cricle. I have chosen to allow for a treeline that extends higher than the arctic circle, as it does in a few rare instances on earth, in order to place the arctic circle as far North as can logically be accommodated, based on the above.

But even so, the Wall would have to lie hundreds of miles below the arctic circle, based on said treeline.

I guess it does make sense for the Haunted Forest to end at the arctic circle, and not just because it alligns with reality (although that is a nice touch). People often say dragons/magic/Others don't exist in real life, so why should the treeline/arctic cricle thing exist in Martinworld. But to that I would say that males/females exist in Martinworld and have the exact same biology as in real life, and lots of things about Martinworld are similar to the real world (Bronze age preceding "medieval age", swords existing, knighthood, lordship, and other things). So going with that makes sense. Also that means The Land of Always Winter which exists right above the Haunted Forest (I believe?) is in the arctic circle exactly, which I like.

Personally, I would rather Martinworld be flat rather than round, but that's neither here nor there.

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I guess it does make sense for the Haunted Forest to end at the arctic circle, and not just because it alligns with reality (although that is a nice touch). People often say dragons/magic/Others don't exist in real life, so why should the treeline/arctic cricle thing exist in Martinworld. But to that I would say that males/females exist in Martinworld and have the exact same biology as in real life, and lots of things about Martinworld are similar to the real world (Bronze age preceding "medieval age", swords existing, knighthood, lordship, and other things). So going with that makes sense. Also that means The Land of Always Winter which exists right above the Haunted Forest (I believe?) is in the arctic circle exactly, which I like.

Personally, I would rather Martinworld be flat rather than round, but that's neither here nor there.

The world is definitely not flat. I hope someone gets to the west of westeros from the east, by asshai or something.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/..._and_the_Globe/

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Out of curiosity, why on your map (and every other one I see) is Yi Ti northeast of Asshai?

You're right, it should be more to the south, especially as it has jungles (as per AGoT). The problem is that east of Asshai are the Shadow Lands, and essentially all knowledge of the world ends there. Yi Ti is usually placed north of it for no real reason other than that's a big empty space where it can fit in. But we could implement the change suggested earlier, by moving Asshai and the Shadow much further south. Yi Ti could still be to the north of Asshai and on a latitude where jungles are possible. I suppose it could also be to the south (maybe even on Sothoryos) and Asshai much further east? That could also work.

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The world is definitely not flat. I hope someone gets to the west of westeros from the east, by asshai or something.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/..._and_the_Globe/

Oh I know Martin has confirmed it is round, I was just saying I wish he didn't. Unless someone does goes around the world, that'd be kind of cool actually.

You're right, it should be more to the south, especially as it has jungles (as per AGoT). The problem is that east of Asshai are the Shadow Lands, and essentially all knowledge of the world ends there. Yi Ti is usually placed north of it for no real reason other than that's a big empty space where it can fit in. But we could implement the change suggested earlier, by moving Asshai and the Shadow much further south. Yi Ti could still be to the north of Asshai and on a latitude where jungles are possible. I suppose it could also be to the south (maybe even on Sothoryos) and Asshai much further east? That could also work.

Fair enough. I never know either, but I guess I might assume it is something like this (forgive the crudity):

'''''Asshai\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

'''''''|||||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

'''''''|||||||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

'''''''''|||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

''''''''''||||||||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

'''''''''''|||||||||||||||||||\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

''''''''''''|||||||||||||||||Yi Ti\\\\\\\\\\

Where the ' 's are just normal Essos, the \'s are the Shadow Lands, and the |'s are either the Jade Sea or more normal Essos.

Again, sorry for the extremely crude map, I see everyone hear working hard to make awesome maps, and mine is just a joke compared to them

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This is more of the idea I had, although now I think Asshai might be too far north. Part of the problem is that we are told that Yi Ti is south-east of Qarth, on the Jade Sea, but also that Asshai is in the far south-east. Since I'm also trying to honour the 'Qarth is halfway between Valyria and Asshai' idea (which is not strictly canon, as it wasn't in the final version of ADWD), that's creating problems.

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This is more of the idea I had, although now I think Asshai might be too far north. Part of the problem is that we are told that Yi Ti is south-east of Qarth, on the Jade Sea, but also that Asshai is in the far south-east. Since I'm also trying to honour the 'Qarth is halfway between Valyria and Asshai' idea (which is not strictly canon, as it wasn't in the final version of ADWD), that's creating problems.

Oh, Yi Ti is southeast of QARTH, not Asshai. I thought it was southeast of Asshai. Then you can put it pretty much whereever you want. Pretty good map by the way.

Also, this may be a horrible question, but what exactly is "The Jhogos Nai." I can't find any reference to it on the wiki, and don't recall reading of it in canon.

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Oh, Yi Ti is southeast of QARTH, not Asshai. I thought it was southeast of Asshai. Then you can put it pretty much whereever you want. Pretty good map by the way.

Also, this may be a horrible question, but what exactly is "The Jhogos Nai." I can't find any reference to it on the wiki, and don't recall reading of it in canon.

The Jogos Nhai (I spelt it wrong) are a race of people mentioned several times in the novels. I always thought it sounded like the name of their homeland as well, although that's probably not the case. IIRC, the people are mentioned in Vaes Dothrak as attending the market there, and there are one or two mentions elsewhere. Apparently they like zorses.

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This is more of the idea I had, although now I think Asshai might be too far north. Part of the problem is that we are told that Yi Ti is south-east of Qarth, on the Jade Sea, but also that Asshai is in the far south-east. Since I'm also trying to honour the 'Qarth is halfway between Valyria and Asshai' idea (which is not strictly canon, as it wasn't in the final version of ADWD), that's creating problems.

Maybe you need to curve the eastern part of the continent more but, even then, "far south-east" sounds to me as if Asshai is below Yi Ti or, at the very least, far south of where you put it. Perhaps the continent of Sothoros ends a lot more abruptly then you have it and the coastline curves sharply west. That would at least give you more room to deal with the south-east location of both Asshai and Yi Ti.

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