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Seconis

[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

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I'm somewhat baffled by how many people seem to think that Jon is Azor Ahai. I understand that when Melisandre looked into the flames and wanted to see Azor Ahai she kept seeing Jon, but isn't there a much better candidate? You know, Daenerys?

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

That's the prophecy for Azor Ahai, correct?

Daenerys woke dragons from the stone eggs that she placed in the funeral pyre of her husband at night while the red comet was in the sky. From what I remember about fires, they tend to give off smoke. From what I remember about funerals, people tend to cry at them and tears have quite a bit of salt in them. She was, figuratively, reborn when she walked into the fire and became the Mother of Dragons. Further, Melisandre and her religion tend to view fire as a fantastic thing, so wouldn't a woman who is impervious to flame make a good candidate for a Messiah?

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Price that was Promised and Azor Ahai likely will turn out to be too different people, likely Jon and Dany. Dany is likely to be PTWP (as Aemon noted in book 4 that in the original Valyrian Prince didn't necesssarily imply a male).

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Everyone thought it was Dany after hearing the prophecy. However, the Melisandre chapter as well as the details of Jon's assassination makes that much less clear. Martin's MO is to make the fulfillment of prophecy from every day mundane circumstances.. which is what the last Jon chapter was. Also, the solution to the Dany prophecy (Mirri) was more symbolic than literal (Quentyn dying, the pyramids falling, and the Dothraki sea crumbling).

The probable solution is that both Dany and Jon have claim to the prophetic title and we might never find out who is the actual Azor Ahai.

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I think GRRM is doing a reversal on a fantasy trope. Instead of all the different prophecies that people believe to be about different people end up being about the same person, we have all these prophecies that people believe to be about the same person to actually be about different people.

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I may be wrong here, but when Mel was looking for AA, wasn't she actually looking for Stannis? Seeing only snow?

While Stannis was marching his army through a blizzard, I would think maybe all she would see is snow...

She did see Jon a lot in the fires, usually surrounded by skulls, thus the "death" at the end..

Just my 2 cents.

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Also, the solution to the Dany prophecy (Mirri) was more symbolic than literal (Quentyn dying, the pyramids falling, and the Dothraki sea crumbling).

Could you explain what this means? Are you referring to Qaith's prophecy? Or Mirri's thing about Dany never having babies again? I'm baffled.

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1. GRRM confirmed that Azor Ahai reborn IS the Prince Who Was Promised, just in a different cultural interpretation.

2. Jon got three signs of the prophecy right at the end, but not the critical final one, the "waking dragons out of stone" one.

3. The dragon has three heads, so Dany and Jon can both be the prince who was promised, plus one more. My guess is that it's connected to the riddle of the sphinx... perhaps the sphinx in question is part dragon, part wolf and part... lion? If the third head really is Tyrion.

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What are the three signs Jon has?

"Smoke" (really condensation in the air) from his wounds.

Salt from Bowen Marsh's tears.

"Under a bleeding star" - Ser Patrek's bloody dead body was being waved around in the air by the giant, and his heraldry is a star.

The last one is too much to be a coincidence, but it could also be GRRM poking fun at us, even if Jon ends up being another of the dragon's heads.

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1. GRRM confirmed that Azor Ahai reborn IS the Prince Who Was Promised, just in a different cultural interpretation.

No, he has not, he supposedly confirmed this but it turns out the person who reported said confirmation was lying, and has since recanted.

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I may be wrong here, but when Mel was looking for AA, wasn't she actually looking for Stannis? Seeing only snow?

No, the quote is "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."

Notice "Snow" is capitalized, meaning a person, not snow, She sees Jon Snow.

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I may be wrong here, but when Mel was looking for AA, wasn't she actually looking for Stannis? Seeing only snow?

While Stannis was marching his army through a blizzard, I would think maybe all she would see is snow...

She did see Jon a lot in the fires, usually surrounded by skulls, thus the "death" at the end..

Just my 2 cents.

In Mel's first POV she is shown firegazing; she says, "Show me Stannis, Lord... show me your king, your instrument." Everything in her POVs suggests that she genuinely believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn, so she refers to him by that title in her prayers.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Snow with a capital S, not the frozen kind. So her response is interesting later, in Jon's POV after Alys' wedding, when he asks Mel about her visions:

"You see fools in your fire, but no hint of Stannis?"

"When I search for him, all I see is snow."

The same useless answer.

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that here too, she's seeing Snow with a capital S. If she simply prayed for a vision of Stannis, then no doubt she'd see plenty of the frozen variety, but Mel has been asking the wrong question.

ETA: re Jon fulfilling the prophecy...

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek with his star sigil and R'hllor-bothering

and darkness gathers, - it's nighttime. Could mean treachery or winter coming either

Azor Ahai shall be born - Mel's totally going to give Jon the kiss of life

amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...

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I just hope Jon wakes up with a new personality.

Overall, loved his POV for the North and Wall, mostly. But Jon was a lifeless personality, bordering on extreme cliche which isn't very Martin like. But it would all make sense if Jon wakes up a new man (loses the boy).

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I'm somewhat baffled by how many people seem to think that Jon is Azor Ahai. I understand that when Melisandre looked into the flames and wanted to see Azor Ahai she kept seeing Jon, but isn't there a much better candidate? You know, Daenerys?

"when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

That's the prophecy for Azor Ahai, correct?

Daenerys woke dragons from the stone eggs that she placed in the funeral pyre of her husband at night while the red comet was in the sky. From what I remember about fires, they tend to give off smoke. From what I remember about funerals, people tend to cry at them and tears have quite a bit of salt in them. She was, figuratively, reborn when she walked into the fire and became the Mother of Dragons. Further, Melisandre and her religion tend to view fire as a fantastic thing, so wouldn't a woman who is impervious to flame make a good candidate for a Messiah?

You suffer from the same problem as Rhygaer impatience and belief in convictions.

Ok. Jon is dead.

I'm telling you he ain't staying that way.

Did dany real die. Figuratively dead and dead not the same thing.

He s the prince who was promised. That doesn't mean she is not the Dragon.

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I'm somewhat baffled by how many people seem to think that Jon is Azor Ahai. I understand that when Melisandre looked into the flames and wanted to see Azor Ahai she kept seeing Jon, but isn't there a much better candidate? You know, Daenerys?

The problem is lightbringer and the Song of Ice and Fire, from which the series takes its name:

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

We are talking about a warrior and a red sword of heroes. That isn't Daenerys. The only way you get there is by falling back to symbolism in a very significant manner and calling Lightbringer (this time) a dragon. But Lightbringer isn't that. Even Aemon knows that -- and marks the passage in the Jade Compendium for Jon to read.

Then we get to this one in the House of the Undying:

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

No matter how you slice this, Dany's is not the Song of Ice and Fire. Assuming R+L=J, that's Jon, not Dany.

So the prophecies are muddled and it's not clear if Azor Ahai is TPwwP, or not. While it's easy to dismiss Jon for the "wake dragons out of stone" requirement (which might yet happen for all we know), Lightbringer and the Song of Ice and Fire count against Dany, too.

Or it could be that it refers to two people and they each fulfill parts of it. If anything is clear in this series, it's that prophecies will bite your prick off, every time.

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I believe AA and tpwwp are one and the same and that three make up one. Think about it people remember what Aemon said. He realized that him and Rhaeger read the prophecy( Theprophecy about the prince) wrong and that the dragon was genderless and HAD THREE HEADS!!! The three that make up one the last remaining Dragons. Daenerys,possibly Jon and someone else.

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In Mel's first POV she is shown firegazing; she says, "Show me Stannis, Lord... show me your king, your instrument." Everything in her POVs suggests that she genuinely believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai reborn, so she refers to him by that title in her prayers.

Snow with a capital S, not the frozen kind. So her response is interesting later, in Jon's POV after Alys' wedding, when he asks Mel about her visions:

I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that here too, she's seeing Snow with a capital S. If she simply prayed for a vision of Stannis, then no doubt she'd see plenty of the frozen variety, but Mel has been asking the wrong question.

ETA: re Jon fulfilling the prophecy...

When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek with his star sigil and R'hllor-bothering

and darkness gathers, - it's nighttime. Could mean treachery or winter coming either

Azor Ahai shall be born - Mel's totally going to give Jon the kiss of life

amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...----> Crazed theory. R+L=J. Jon is a Targ, and therefore a dragon. Mel's kiss "wakes" Jon, the dragon. The stone could be the condition of his heart (i.e. a stone cold war leader, without the compassion he normally demonstrates) or something else (Castle Black being made of "stone")?

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When the red star bleeds - Ser Patrek with his star sigil and R'hllor-bothering

and darkness gathers, - it's nighttime. Could mean treachery or winter coming either

Azor Ahai shall be born - Mel's totally going to give Jon the kiss of life

amidst smoke and salt - Bowen's tears and Jon's wound

to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...

I mentioned this in another thread but Martin has been known to make utterly mundane things the sign of prophecy before. If you read Martin's third Dunk & Egg short story titled, The Mystery Knight...

Dunk and Egg meet a character that has "prophetic" dreams. He tells Duncan that he had a dream of Duncan garbed all in white (the white of the kings guard and we know Duncan the Tall becomes LC of the Kingsguard under Aegon V), he also tells Duncan that he dreamed of a dragon rising at whitewalls, the castle dunk and egg were staying at. This character (Jon the Fiddler) believed that he would hatch a Dragon from an egg at Whitewalls and start the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Jon the Fiddler's prophecy came true but in a totally mundane way. As GRRM explains in the short story, when Egg shows Lord Butterwell his Tararyen Signet Ring (Dragon Ring) that fulfills the prophecy of a dragon (Egg) rising at Whitewall.

If we analyze Jon Snow as Azor Ahai, waking dragons out of stone could mean coming into the knowledge of his own Dragon blood and becoming reborn as a man. Just as the Dragon rising in the Mystery Knight was Egg revealing himself as Aegon.

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to wake dragons out of stone. - I wonder if that's just the loan coming in from Braavos? :laugh: Dany's got enough dragons to go around...----> Crazed theory. R+L=J. Jon is a Targ, and therefore a dragon. Mel's kiss "wakes" Jon, the dragon. The stone could be the condition of his heart (i.e. a stone cold war leader, without the compassion he normally demonstrates) or something else (Castle Black being made of "stone")?

I do like Jon being AA, but I don't think that Mel "waking" Jon fits the "waking dragons". The way it is written says that AA himself will wake the dragons.

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