[ADwD Spoilers] Azor Ahai and Jon

[Aegon VI Blackfyre]

A few thoughts:

In Clash, Daenerys has the following vision:

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

It corresponds very well with Melisandres words:

Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

If I recall correctly, Jon was stabbed inside the tower where Val was living, or at least very close to it. Maybe a dragon wakes from the stone in this tower?

As far as I know, the fate of Queen Alysanne's dragon Silverwing is never described. It's a long shot, but it could be sleeping underneath Castle Black.

Shireen has visions of stone dragons as well, and she has greyscale. Also, she is of Targaryen descent through her Baratheon family. Waking a dragon from stone could be figuratively in that Shireen might be cured of her greyscale or in some way be awakened.

One other thought: Melisandre identifies herself as the best at having prophetic visions in her order, and at the very least she is good. Unfortunately she is terrible at interpreting her visions. Still, she must have seen something leading her to beleive that Stannis is Azor Ahai, even if it is wrong. I could imagine a few visions of Stannis and Jon talking or fighting together where she could have jumped to conclusions about which of them was actually AA. Nothing that is even close to evidence, but it makes sense that she is getting closer to finding out who AA is, and not just chasing a completely wrong vision, but who knows.

[Steel_Wind]

Not that I have any belief in this at all (because I really don't) but...

Were Rickon to die? And a reborn Jon out of the Night's Watch as Lord of Winterfell end up marrying Shirene (ewww) and she bears him children...

Would that be waking dragons (Targs) out of stone (Shirene and her greyscale)?

Not believing this AT ALL - just throwing it out there as a bone to chew on.

[Itkovian]

I'd like to know where the "Song of Ice and Fire" comes from, as seen in Dany's vision dream of Rhaegar in Clash of Kings.

You see, after Bran's own chapters and his encounter with Those Who Sing, I think the whole concept of the "Song of Ice and Fire" has just taken new dimension. It is no longer simply a fancy turn of word for "he'll be awesome", but has the potential for real power, given how the Children of the Forest are all about singing.

And of course, if R+L=J is correct, then Jon fits the bill for the PWWP perfectly, especially given his final moments in Dance.

But where does the "Song of Ice and Fire" come from? Did Aemon explain it in Feast? I think it is much more significant now than it ever was.

Itkovian

[acadia]

1. GRRM confirmed that Azor Ahai reborn IS the Prince Who Was Promised, just in a different cultural interpretation.

2. Jon got three signs of the prophecy right at the end, but not the critical final one, the "waking dragons out of stone" one.

3. The dragon has three heads, so Dany and Jon can both be the prince who was promised, plus one more. My guess is that it's connected to the riddle of the sphinx... perhaps the sphinx in question is part dragon, part wolf and part... lion? If the third head really is Tyrion.

So where would that leave Aegon?

I got a better question, with all these Wargs running around, why the h*ll did none of them warg a dragon? It would seem to me that Targeryan or not, the first thing I'm trying to do is warg one of them dragons if I have the ability to warg.

[Jon AS]

A few thoughts:

In Clash, Daenerys has the following vision:

Note that that is in the "Slayer of lies" section, together with Stannis and the cloth dragon. Could be another attempt by Melisandre to make the prophecy come true.

[Été]

The prophecy says he will be REBORN amidst smoke and salt and everything else, not die. So when he finally returns to being fully human, this is when you will see the smoke and bleeding stars. Or so I hope.

You make a good point, but one presumes that he'll be rezzed pretty quickly after his death, so those conditions will still be very recent history, like half an hour ago.

[Jaime Targaryen]

The fact that you are not privy to his plot merely demonstrates GRRM's fiendish cunning. He is hiding AA where we least suspect and his presence are announced by signs which are otherwise not remarkable.

You're right. Cersei is AA.

[cteresa]

The prophecy is AA born again - but born again might mean his reincarnation so to speak (from Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa)story. The salt and smoke can apply directly to the birth of the person who will be AA. Mind you, even Dany can be told to have been born in salt and smoke and reborn in salt and smoke (Drogo´s pyre).

My point is probably:

- every single thing about the prophecy matches Dany. Several times over sometimes.

- It might apply to other people as well, intentionally or not. Maybe we need 3 AAs for this fight, dragon has 3 heads and all that.

[Jaime Targaryen]

It corresponds very well with Melisandres words:

What corresponds better is that Dany was born in Dragonstone and woke actual dragons out of stone.

[Jaime Targaryen]

The salt and smoke can apply directly to the birth of the person who will be AA. Mind you, even Dany can be told to have been born in salt and smoke and reborn in salt and smoke (Drogo´s pyre).

Not just "can be". Mellisandre's whole interpretation that makes Stannis AA is that Dragonstone is a place of salt and smoke and Dany was actually born on Dragonstone with no need for any metaphorical rebirth. Applying the prophecy to Dany is easily and literally done. Applying it to anyone else requires metaphorical stretches.

[Steve Moss]

LOL, and he gets killed by a giant. LOL Martin.

I didn't catch the dig. Awesome!

What corresponds better is that Dany was born in Dragonstone and woke actual dragons out of stone.

As Marwyn said, you think you have a prophecy figured out and then it bites you severely.

[Été]

What corresponds better is that Dany was born in Dragonstone and woke actual dragons out of stone.

But it does seem odd that Mel asks her fires, "Show me Azor Ahai," and gets visions of Jon.

[Saracen]

We all know even though they don't read prophecies right most of the time most prophecies have truth in them, especially one from a red priest. Mel has never failed us in the visions department so if she asks for AA and sees Jon. Then most likely Jon is AA. Or one of the heads from the trinity. (If that theory is correct)

[Steel_Wind]

Not just "can be". Mellisandre's whole interpretation that makes Stannis AA is that Dragonstone is a place of salt and smoke and Dany was actually born on Dragonstone with no need for any metaphorical rebirth. Applying the prophecy to Dany is easily and literally done. Applying it to anyone else requires metaphorical stretches.

That part of the prophecy fits Dany, yes; however, the part where Azor Ahai is a Warrior with the red sword of Heroes, drawing forth Lightbringer? You can't get there from here. Not unless you start resorting to some very cheesey metaphors yourself.

Nor is Dany "the Song of Ice and Fire". That's R+L=J. You must take into account the bad along with the good, seems to me, when you are deciding who fits a prophecied role and who does not.

Most of all, we need to look directly at what the author clearly shows us in ADwD. GRRM does something VERY odd within ADwD. He lets us inside the head of someone who has "too much information" in his series, namely, Melisandre. GRRM has never let us directly see the world from the POV of someone like Melisandre in ASoIaF. We don't get a chapter from Varys, Littlefinger, Marwyn or Bloodraven. And we get only the ONE chapter from Melisandre. Why is that? I put it to you that GRRM wanted us to see something within that chapter which was important for the reader to see and which could only be appreciated if we saw the truth looking directly with Mel's eyes.

Sort through Mel's chapter with that yardstick in hand and you will quickly see that there is only one reason that GRRM lets us see the world through Melisandre's red eyes: her "frustrated" vision of AA.

Melisandre prays to R'hllor to show her AA "and all she sees is Snow". Melisandre doesn't get it -- but the reader does. If that vision was simply spoken by Melisandre so that Jon hears it in his own POV? He would hear from her "all I see is snow.", without the capital "S". Jon would be mislead and we would be left with something very equivocal as a reader.

In fact, that happens later in the book precisely that way; GRRM is underscoring the critical difference for us. Looking from within her mind? We see the truth even as she does not. That vision was not equivocal; indeed, I would argue that was the entire reason for showing ONE CHAPTER from Melisandre's POV. That one vision -- that one line.

So Jon is Azor Ahai and he can't be Azor Ahai if he's dead. So he isn't dead; or at least, won't remain dead if he is for the moment. There can be no other plausible reason for GRRM giving us just that ONE chapter from Melisandre.

I would also add that prophecies in ASoIaF are just the ravings of people in the past with prophetic visions, people just like Mel or Jojen. While Mel's misinterpretation of the vision of AA is off because she does not understand that Jon is a Targ and the true King -- the reader knows what it really means because we have the necessary information to interpret the visions properly.

It all comes down to this: Dany seems to fulfill the first part of the prophecy clearly and directly, but if Dany were AA, why would the vision show Melisandre Jon Snow and not one whiff of Daenerys? So it can't be Dany.

I think it likely that we are missing parts of the prophecies and they have become muddled over the millenia. So while Dany is clearly a part of it, Jon is the warrior who draws the red sword of heroes from the fire and becomes Azor Ahai reborn, to drive back the darkness.

"I am the sword in the darkness."

[Sun]

I am so depressed now... I fear that Jon is dead and he was one of my favorite characters! :(

I know a lot of people dislike him and bring up 'cliche' personally I think that word seems to be overly used to the point I have to grind my teeth. I still like Jon and now he's dead...

I suspect that the scene where Morroqo heals Victarion's hand is significant, and was not simply included by Martin simply as a reason for the red priest to be accepted on the iron captain's ship. Martin introduced a new facet of the red priests arsenal of skills of which we were, or I was, previously unaware, namely that of healing. Until that scene, I knew they could raise the dead as zombies but not heal grievous wounds with their ER fire spells.

I'm willing to bet 5 pennies that Jon has not breathed his last breath, not yet. And that he will return probably healed by the Milisander.

ETA:

Until he is healed/returned, I think his body will end up in an ice cell (ice preserves) and his consciousness in Ghost. I believe both Val and Milisander will be instrumental in his return.

[kg1982]

Melisandre prays to R'hllor to show her AA "and all she sees is Snow". Melisandre doesn't get it -- but the reader does. If that vision was simply spoken by Melisandre so that Jon hears it in his own POV? He would hear from her "all I see is snow.", without the capital "S". Jon would be mislead and we would be left with something very equivocal as a reader.

That is how Jon interprets it when he and Melisandre talk at Alys' wedding. When Mel's talking about seeing snow, Jon thinks about how there is a blizzard and late autumn snows. Mel, as we know from her POV, is actually referring to him. She sees Jon in her flames. I ask for the Azor Ahai and all I see is Snow. It is a fun way to play with the meaning of prophecy.

Mel interprets the vision to mean that R'hllor is being cranky and not showing her what she wants rather than admitting that she got the Azor Ahai's identity wrong. And Jon is even further misinterpreting her prophecy, thinking that she is seeing snow drifts when she is really seeing him.

[cteresa]

Not just "can be". Mellisandre's whole interpretation that makes Stannis AA is that Dragonstone is a place of salt and smoke and Dany was actually born on Dragonstone with no need for any metaphorical rebirth. Applying the prophecy to Dany is easily and literally done. Applying it to anyone else requires metaphorical stretches.

The "can be said to have been born and reborn", the "can" applies to the reborn part. Dany was born in salt and smoke, it is known beyond discussion. I was pointing out that it can be said she was also reborn in salt and smoke, in Drogo´s pyre. Anything about Jon being *reborn* can apply as well to Dany.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Not just "can be". Mellisandre's whole interpretation that makes Stannis AA is that Dragonstone is a place of salt and smoke and Dany was actually born on Dragonstone with no need for any metaphorical rebirth. Applying the prophecy to Dany is easily and literally done. Applying it to anyone else requires metaphorical stretches.

Yes, but interpreting dragons as Lightbringer the red sword of heroes does not require any metaphorical stretches.

[Ipse Dixit 000]

Isn't AA the one reborn? I never read that to require a resurrection. Just a second coming. AA beat the others, lived, died, whatever. Is reborn as someone new. Or is there something I'm forgetting that indicates someone has to have a mid-life rebirth to be AA?

[rhaze]

Didnt Mel also make some comment about "she could tell them what she sees but she would rather just mislead them." Mance came into the room while she was looking at the fires and asked her what she saw, if I am not mistaken.