[ADwD Spoilers] Winterfell murder mysteries.

[BladeDancer]

Who do people think killed Walder Frey? As in Little Walder Frey? Basically his murders kicks off a massive fight between the Frey's and the Manderley's.

Was it one of the Manderley's? The Frey's think they did it, but are they right? The Manderley's hate the Frey's but murdering one at this time just casts suspicion on them, especially after Lord Manderley's comments.

Or was it Ramsey Bolton? Because he is a sadist mofo and just wanted to kill someone.

Was it Roose Bolton - because he wanted the Manderley's and Frey to fight each other? He has been aching to get at the Manderley's for a while now.

Mance and his girls denied it to Theon, so that rules them out. Theon thinks it might be one of Mance's girls, which means that it was not Theon as he would know if he had done it or not. So who could it be?

Why are people being murdered anyway? Mance and his girls are killing people because they are interrogating people about weak points in the Castle, so they can escape with Arya. But are they responsible for all of them. I think we can rule out the Sons of the Harpy for these murders! :fencing:

[LadySansa]

It seems some people on the board think it might have been the other Walder. Don't know if we will ever find out for sure. I remember his brother had blood all over him but that could have been from finding the body and holding it.

[Été]

Would the Manderly bannermen would kill a little boy, even one as vicious as Little Walder? Even though they Scott Tenorman'd the Freys, he's still just a kid.

I doubt Ramsay killed his little protégé, and Roose seemed very wary indeed of dissent in the ranks, knowing what uneasy bedfellows his bannermen were.

Big Walder seems a likely candidate, but I don't think we have enough information to say for sure.

[starkloyalist]

why would big walder kill his kinsman? i know he seems like a dick but what would his motivation be? just sadism?

[Sherrit]

Big Walder probably got tired of his cousins shit. With all the other Freys dying, he supposed he could get away with it. People would think it was the other killer.

[Datepalm]

Would the Manderly bannermen would kill a little boy, even one as vicious as Little Walder? Even though they Scott Tenorman'd the Freys, he's still just a kid.

I doubt Ramsay killed his little protégé, and Roose seemed very wary indeed of dissent in the ranks, knowing what uneasy bedfellows his bannermen were.

Big Walder seems a likely candidate, but I don't think we have enough information to say for sure.

Wasn't the other Walder the one that clicked more with Ramsay?

My theory at some point was that Theon was actually developing a split personality or at least was the one responsible for the murders and then blacking them out, though it seems far fetched given his development by the end of the book. (Both technically, and thematically, in terms of going back to killing children seemingly not being what GRRM was trying to do with that arc, to put mildly.)

I kind of like the idea its actually Lady Dustin, for some nefarious plot of her own.

[Steel_Wind]

Mance and his girls denied it to Theon, so that rules them out. Theon thinks it might be one of Mance's girls, which means that it was not Theon as he would know if he had done it or not. So who could it be?

His girls denied it. Are we sure that Mance did as well? I'm inclined to accept it wasn't Mance, but I'm not sure we know it.

As for Theon, I'm not sure everything Theon thinks is a reliable POV, but I think he didn't do it.

One thing has been bothering me though. How many swords were missing from the tomb? I thought Osha took one and Hodor took one. But weren't there THREE swords missing from the Stark tomb?

Edit: I'm correct, though the number missing is actually FOUR when Lady Dustin and Theon visit.

When Bran was in the tombs, three swords were taken. Lord Rickard's, Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) with Osha taking the newest one which was intended for Eddard's statue.

But if you read the chapter carefully, the sword which is missing from one of the "kings" is from an older Stark whose name Theon does not recall. It's not from the swords that Bran Meera and Osha took. There is ABSOLUTELY another sword missing.

And the tomb door was SHUT TIGHT. They had to use an axe to break it down and get in. So whoever took that sword had taken it already (or was hiding down there, most likely) and had shut that door. Remember, the tombs are actually pretty warm compared to the winter going on up above. It's the best place to stay, actually, if you happen to be living in Winterfell.

The murders do not begin until AFTER Lady Dustin and Theon visit the crypts. The murderer was down in the crypts -- and had probably retreated to a lower level as Dustin and Theon & Co come down the stairs.

And as for stealing a sword -- why would you do that if you had access to Bolton's military equipment, or were otherwise a soldier? You wouldn't need to steal a sword. The person who took it was otherwise unarmed, and have been down there since the snow started falling.

GRRM takes us down there for a reason. There's no real plot point reason for Lady Dustin to visit tjhe crypt. No, the reason we were brought down there was to notice that an extra sword was missing. Lady Dustin's claim to be there to be checking for Eddard's bones is misdirection. GRRM may come back to that in a later book -- but the real reason we are shown all of this is to see the missing sword and to be reminded that the crypts are cool, but not cold.

So somebody took one from the tomb. I think the thief is the one who killed Little Walder. Why would you kill Little Walder?

Because you were afraid you were going to be recognized, or you HAD been recognized, that's why.

Who's supposed to be dead in Winterfell -- but is somebody we never saw die? Who knows the tombs? Who would be recognized by Little Walder and could be betrayed by him?

Is Maester Luwin still alive?

[Puck6275]

why would big walder kill his kinsman? i know he seems like a dick but what would his motivation be? just sadism?

Wasn't Little Walder ahead of Big Walder in inheritence? What with all the death going on in the castle, and to Freys in general, it's possible he thought his killing would be blamed on someone else, and move him up the list to become lord of the crossing.

[Millardkillmoore]

Little Walder was engaged to Wylla Manderly. My guess is that Wyman killed him to prevent his granddaughter from marrying a Frey.

[starkloyalist]

I have a feeling we are supposed to take note of the fact in winterfell's crypts that the lower levels are rarely visited and partly collapsed. theon mentions it to lady barbrey and i think this is the most interesting tidbit from that odd trip to the tombs. i have a sneaking suspicion we are going to go into the ancient lower levels at some point in the future.

[Sherrit]

@ Starkloyalist,

That would be so cool.

[theblueviper]

His girls denied it. Are we sure that Mance did as well? I'm inclined to accept it wasn't Mance, but I'm not sure we know it.

As for Theon, I'm not sure everything Theon thinks is a reliable POV, but I think he didn't do it.

One thing has been bothering me though. How many swords were missing from the tomb? I thought Osha took one and Hodor took one. But weren't there THREE swords missing from the Stark tomb?

And the tomb door was SHUT TIGHT. They had to use an axe to break it down and get in. So whoever took that sword had taken it already (or was hiding down there, most likely) and had shut that door. Remember, the tombs are actually pretty warm compared to the winter going on up above. It's the best place to stay, actually, if you happen to be living in Winterfell.

And as for stealing a sword -- why would you do that if you had access to Bolton's military equipment, or were otherwise a soldier? You wouldn't need to steal a sword. The person who took it was otherwise unarmed, and have been down there since the snow started falling.

GRRM takes us down there for a reason. There's no real plot point reason for Lady Barbrey to visit. No, the reason we were brought down there was to notice that an extra sword was missing.

So somebody took one from the tomb. I think the thief is the one who killed Little Walder. Why would you kill Little Walder?

Because you were afraid you were going to be recognized, or you HAD been recognized, that's why.

Who's supposed to be dead in Winterfell -- but is somebody we never saw die? Who knows the tombs? Who would be recognized by Little Walder and could be betrayed by him?

Is Maester Luwin still alive?

I recall Bran taking one as well.

[AryaHorseface]

Who's supposed to be dead in Winterfell -- but is somebody we never saw die? Who knows the tombs? Who would be recognized by Little Walder and could be betrayed by him?

Is Maester Luwin still alive?

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure that Luwin is dead, BUT we never saw Old Nan die that I can recall. Maybe the old lady was a lot tougher than she looked.

[Steel_Wind]

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure that Luwin is dead, BUT we never saw Old Nan die that I can recall. Maybe the old lady was a lot tougher than she looked.

Luwin was left alive. Osha stays with him by the heart-tree and tarries -- the implication at the time is that she stayed behind to give him the gift of mercy. But we absolutely 100% do NOT see him die.

I think Luwin is still alive and he's the killer. I am going to go back and check, but I am almost certain that this best explains Little Walder's death -- and why GRRM takes us back down into the crypts.

[The Mountain That Glides]

Are you really suggesting that a maester of the citadel would kill a child? Are you really suggesting that Maester Luwin would kill a child?

Man, that is seven kinds of crazy. There are conspiracy theories, and then there are conspiracy theories. Best put this one to rest.

[Steel_Wind]

Alright, I've checked the text more clearly, and now I'm damned sure.

Little Walder is found at the base of the ruined tower, the one with the gargoyles that is right beside the entrance to the crypt.

We know that somebody closed the door to the crypt since Bran & Co left it -- because they leave the door open.

We know that a fourth sword is missing from the crypts, because the three that Bran, Osha, and Meera take are described in the last chapter of ACoK -- and they didn't take the sword Theon notices is missing. And that missing sword is why GRRM bothers to show us that scene in the crypts. There no other possible reason.

I conclude that whoever it is killed Little Walder as he was entering into or leaving the crypts at night. Little Walder was a boy of nine and would not ordinarily have been killed -- except if he recognized the man leaving the crypts.

And Little Walder Frey would most certainly have recognized Maester Luwin.

"The Ghost in Winterfell" is the chapter's name -- and there is even a reference to the "ghostly voice of Measter Luwin" by Theon as he is walking down the crypts by the statues. So who is our ghost?

Who is the Ghost in Winterfell?

I say that the man who took the sword from the crypts, who has been living down in the crypts of Winterfell all this time and who killed Little Walder is, all probability, Maester Luwin.

[Steel_Wind]

Are you really suggesting that a maester of the citadel would kill a child? Are you really suggesting that Maester Luwin would kill a child?

Man, that is seven kinds of crazy. There are conspiracy theories, and then there are conspiracy theories. Best put this one to rest.

Absolutely.

[Ned Dayne]

If it was indeed Maester Luwin, that would be 7 kinds of badass.

[estrellas]

It just seems so out-of-character for Maester Luwin to kill a little boy...however, Luwin was highly loyal to the Starks, and if he is still alive then he knows everything about what happened at Winterfell and he would NOT want to be discovered. He may have thought that his continued survival was more important than the life of the sadistic Frey -- which it is. The Frey boy that died was the one who was like Ramsay, and the Frey who survived was the one that Theon thought was much nicer, if I recall correctly.

I definitely think you're onto something about the crypts, though. It may not be Maester Luwin, but I am sure you're correct about someone living down there.

Here's another crazy theory: What if Osha and Rickon never left? What if they're NOT on Skagos? What if when Osha stayed behind to talk to Luwin he told her of the secret levels of the crypt and she decided to stay?

Is there anyone else besides Luwin or Osha it could be? And Old Nan, I guess...but uh, I'm pretty sure it's not Old Nan :laugh: I'm sure there's a bunch of Winterfell folks whose names we have forgotten from the earlier books that were not specifically listed as dead.

[StarkBlack21]

You know you're right. We never saw Maester Luwin die. Also remember the guy with the Cloak, Theon talks to briefly. Could that be Maester Luwin? The guy in the Cloak was never explained, and it didn't seem like Mance. I mean why would Mance care that Theon is a turncloak? The guy in the Cloak seemed like he knew Theon from the past, and had a personal spite against him.

It would make sense Maester Luwin killed Walder Frey. Remember Luwin scolded Little Walder Frey, when he was playing with Rickon and Bran, and Little Walder Frey def didn't like Maester Luwin and would recognize him.