[ADwD Spoilers] Winterfell murder mysteries.

[The Human Abstract]

I'm glad someone finally asked this question. I was wondering myself about the swords, but the board was going down so often I never had a chance to post.

[Été]

Utterly loathsome as Little Walder was, I have some trouble believing Maester Luwin would murder one of his old charges but it's not impossible.

If he's been living in Winterfell all this time, what's he been eating? And how can he have been coming and going from the crypts if they were frozen shut and needed to be broken into?

(Honestly, it's nothing personal Steel_Wind! :P Just questions.)

[kingkiller]

These deaths resemble the murders that Jaqen H'gar did at Harrenhal at Arya's bidding. We know he can take on any appearance that he likes. For whatever reason, he is my guess simply because that would be badass.

[Steel_Wind]

I'm not saying that Little Walder was targeted for vengeance or to sow dissent as the others deaths were meant to accomplish.

I'm saying that Big Walder explains why Little Walder was right by the entrance to the crypts and that Little Walder saw the man come out of the crypts. Luwin could not pretend to be someone else, down there for some reason. By that time, the murders were in full swing and the "snow" had collapsed the stables.

So as soon as Little Walder saw him, Luwin's goose was cooked. It was kill or be killed. Remember that Little Walder was there as an armed companion of those who had burned Winterfell and were now occupying it.

Yes. Maester Luwin killed them all -- including Little Walder. A healer knows how to kill.

[Emerson]

I like the idea that Maester Luwin is still alive and was the guy in the cloak, but that doesn't make it make sense that he'd kill a kid.

[jurble]

Well, clearly we know that Jon has to visit the Crypts of Winterfell at some point. Presumably the lower levels of the Crypt. Now, if the Ghost in Winterfell (THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA) lives deep under Winterfell, who is he? Obviously, the vision of the crypts have to do with Jon learning his identity. Therefore:

RHAEGAR TARGARYEN IS THE GHOST IN WINTERFELL

[StarkBlack21]

Do you think Maester Luwin is the guy in the Dark Cloak, Theon talks to briefly? Also it wouldn't shock me if Lady Dustin was helping with murdering Freys. Remember she says to that one Frey "The North Remembers." That;s like the catch phrase in this book, almost seems like the code for vengeance.

Lady Dustin has removed herself from suspicion because she is so close to Roose. So it would be easy for her to act. Plus, isn't strange how openly disrespectful Lady Dustin is of Ramsay in front of Roose? It's like she is hiding in plain sight. She might've wanted to go down to the crypts to show one of her assassins where to hide.

[kingkiller]

Well, clearly we know that Jon has to visit the Crypts of Winterfell at some point. Presumably the lower levels of the Crypt. Now, if the Ghost in Winterfell (THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA) lives deep under Winterfell, who is he? Obviously, the vision of the crypts have to do with Jon learning his identity. Therefore:

RHAEGAR TARGARYEN IS THE GHOST IN WINTERFELL

are you implying that Rheagar somehow is buried at Winterfell, and that was a 2nd part of the promise Lyanna made Ned swear?

Because that would be AWESOME. Great thought.

It would also fulfill the part of the prophecy about waking dragons out of stone. Jon could go into the crypt as Jon Snow and leave as a Targaryen, and one of the dragon heads.

[Emerson]

Also, why would The Ghost In Winterfell refer to anyone besides Theon? We have no reason to believe that, as every single chapter so far in the series has referred to the point of view character thereof.

[kingkiller]

already covered, deleted this post. sorry.

[estrellas]

Also, why would The Ghost In Winterfell refer to anyone besides Theon? We have no reason to believe that, as every single chapter so far in the series has referred to the point of view character thereof.

What about Asha's chapter The Sacrifice? She has yet to be sacrificed, after all...as far as we know. Rather, the chapter was about others being sacrificed to R'hllor.

[Emerson]

What about Asha's chapter The Sacrifice? She has yet to be sacrificed, after all...as far as we know. Rather, the chapter was about others being sacrificed to R'hllor.

OK, you got me there. Totally forgot about that one.

[Steel_Wind]

If he's been living in Winterfell all this time, what's he been eating? And how can he have been coming and going from the crypts if they were frozen shut and needed to be broken into?

Winterfell was a castle, after all. There were fields and there was food to be reclaimed from the stores and granaries that might not all have been burned. Winterfell stores a LOT of grain and food for winter, that's why the Winter Town is there. Most of that food would have been below ground and the Maester is the Bowen Marsh of Winterfell's food stores. He'd know where it all was and it couldn't all have been burned. Osha Bran and Rickon find bread and fruit to sustain them which they gather before they leave Winterfell, too. Hell - they gather up and take fresh bread from the kitchens as I recall (a little toasted, but my point is made).

It's hardly stretching it to say that a concerted amount of gathering could have yielded enough food to sustain the life of one man. My guess is he found a lot more than that.

With his food all well below ground and stored cool, there would have been little reason for him to leave the crypts at all. There may even be water down there so he would not have to leave for that. It's underground, after all.

Luwin probably only noticed that someone was back in Winterfell when the door to the crypt, which had been frozen shut, is forced open. He then sneaks about the castle, skulking and listening and soon understands what has happened. Luwin, the last servant of House Stark in Winterfell -- decides he is going to defend his castle from the beast who burned it (and who tried to kill him) and, in fact, killed hundreds of Winterfell men.

And so he does. And in the midst of that skulking, he is seen leaving his spider hole from one of the few people in the keep who would recognize him on sight. He has a few heartbeats, at most, to decide what to do. It's kill or be killed.

And so it is that Little Walder dies, too.

[Branstheman]

lmao! I love how at some point in all discussions about mysteries in a song of ice and fire, someone will eventually blame it all on Rhaegar Targaryen. That guy is badass. Or maybe a Timelord. Probably both.

[Ariadne Snow]

While reading the chapter, I presumed Big Walder killed him, but the idea that there is a 'ghost' in Winterfell is a great one. I don't know that I believe it's Maester Luwin, but it's possible.

[GreenMonkey]

I think the Master Luwin theory is far fetched. I think it's pretty clear that he was dying and given mercy. It's doubtful he was in good enough health to even survive on his own enough to heal up and recuperate.

I don't know what the answer would be though.

[Datepalm]

hm, I totally forgot about the cloaked guy. The Ghost in Winterfell also has a very strong parallel to The Ghost in Harrenhall - Ie, someone who is committing murders in the castle. I don't think its Mance and his dance crew, and its not Theon.

I'd have said Luwin was a ridiculous option, but then theres that ominous speech from Barbrey about Maesters and what the fuck are they up to anyway, so now I wonder.

[Ecwhite]

It's obviously Benjen. He got drunk during Robert's feast, wandered down to the crypts and got lost. Now he's back for blood.

There should always be a Stark in Winterfell!!!

[jurble]

Nah, it has to be a Phantom of the Opera reference. The hidden lair under the opera house = the deeper levels of the Crypt.

That's all I got.

I don't think it's Rhaegar. And assuming it's the guy that walks past Theon, he's not interested in killing Theon - HE KNOWS BRAN AND RICKON ARE ALIVE. So who could it be? Someone who knows they're alive, and knows Winterfell well enough to navigate the Crypts. Now, Luwin just seems absurd. Benjen would be possible in terms of skill and knowledge of the crypts? But the where/when/how/what doesn't really make sense.

No no,

RODERICK CASSEL IS ALIVE. Or maybe not.

I dunno. But I think it has to be linked to Jon's forthcoming journey to the crypts.

[Frisco]

His girls denied it. Are we sure that Mance did as well? I'm inclined to accept it wasn't Mance, but I'm not sure we know it.

As for Theon, I'm not sure everything Theon thinks is a reliable POV, but I think he didn't do it.

One thing has been bothering me though. How many swords were missing from the tomb? I thought Osha took one and Hodor took one. But weren't there THREE swords missing from the Stark tomb?

Edit: I'm correct, though the number missing is actually FOUR when Lady Dustin and Theon visit.

When Bran was in the tombs, three swords were taken. Lord Rickard's, Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) with Osha taking the newest one which was intended for Eddard's statue.

But if you read the chapter carefully, the sword which is missing from one of the "kings" is from an older Stark whose name Theon does not recall. It's not from the swords that Bran Meera and Osha took. There is ABSOLUTELY another sword missing.

And the tomb door was SHUT TIGHT. They had to use an axe to break it down and get in. So whoever took that sword had taken it already (or was hiding down there, most likely) and had shut that door. Remember, the tombs are actually pretty warm compared to the winter going on up above. It's the best place to stay, actually, if you happen to be living in Winterfell.

The murders do not begin until AFTER Lady Dustin and Theon visit the crypts. The murderer was down in the crypts -- and had probably retreated to a lower level as Dustin and Theon & Co come down the stairs.

And as for stealing a sword -- why would you do that if you had access to Bolton's military equipment, or were otherwise a soldier? You wouldn't need to steal a sword. The person who took it was otherwise unarmed, and have been down there since the snow started falling.

GRRM takes us down there for a reason. There's no real plot point reason for Lady Dustin to visit tjhe crypt. No, the reason we were brought down there was to notice that an extra sword was missing. Lady Dustin's claim to be there to be checking for Eddard's bones is misdirection. GRRM may come back to that in a later book -- but the real reason we are shown all of this is to see the missing sword and to be reminded that the crypts are cool, but not cold.

So somebody took one from the tomb. I think the thief is the one who killed Little Walder. Why would you kill Little Walder?

Because you were afraid you were going to be recognized, or you HAD been recognized, that's why.

Who's supposed to be dead in Winterfell -- but is somebody we never saw die? Who knows the tombs? Who would be recognized by Little Walder and could be betrayed by him?

Is Maester Luwin still alive?

In ACoK, they claim to take 3 swords. Osha takes Ned's, Meera takes Rickard's, and Bran takes Brandon's.

In ASoS, we find that Hodor took one of the older swords.

Making 4.

They say they took 3 in ASoS, so I can see where it may be unclear--but I don't think they were counting Osha's sword since she wasn't there with them.