[ADwD Spoilers] Winterfell murder mysteries.

[Carlucio]

Mance group killed most of them, except the little walther.

[Frisco]

That's not to say someone wasn't hiding down there. Though the door may have closed on its own, since it's on an incline. If nothing else, the scene showed us that Lady Dustin is not as Pro-Bolton as she seems. And might serve to alert someone else that Bran and Rickon are alive, if someone does a deeper investigation.

[Ser Hippie]

It was Syrio pretending to be Master Luwin. :smoking:

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

In ACoK, they claim to take 3 swords. Osha takes Ned's, Meera takes Rickard's, and Bran takes Brandon's.

In ASoS, we find that Hodor took one of the older swords.

Making 4.

They say they took 3 in ASoS, so I can see where it may be unclear--but I don't think they were counting Osha's sword since she wasn't there with them.

Yes and the one Hodor took was one of the old ones from an old king because it was one of the biggest ones

[Steel_Wind]

In ACoK, they claim to take 3 swords. Osha takes Ned's, Meera takes Rickard's, and Bran takes Brandon's.

In ASoS, we find that Hodor took one of the older swords.

Making 4.

They say they took 3 in ASoS, so I can see where it may be unclear--but I don't think they were counting Osha's sword since she wasn't there with them.

I think you are right. George seems to have retconned that from the swords he describes were taken in ACoK -- and Hodor's larger blade that would be the older sword which Theon notices is missing from the dead King whose name he cannot remember.

"The stableboy had forgotten about his sword, but now he remembered. “Hodor!” he burped. He went for his blade. They had three tomb swords taken from the crypts of Winterfell where Bran and his brother Rickon had hidden from Theon Greyjoy’s ironmen. Bran claimed his uncle Brandon’s sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his grandfather Lord Rickard. Hodor’s blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust. He could swing it for hours at a time. There was a rotted tree near the tumbled stones that he had hacked half to pieces."

I still think it likely that the Ghost of Winterfell was in the crypts, but the missing swords are now accounted for. At least, to the extent noticed in ADwD.

I think the rest of it still hangs together and makes sense. Luwin certainly did appear near death, and does appear to be asking for mercy at the end of ACoK, but...

One other possibility are those who were tasked to bring back Lady's bones to the Crypts. Does anyone remember if Lady's bones had arrived at Winterfell before it was sacked?

Those might be good candidates as well.

I still like the idea of Little Walder noticing Luwin though :)

Whoever the ghost is, I'm damned sure he was in the crypts.

[Lord Damian]

There must always be a Stark at Winterfell. What does that mean? One of the dead lords in the crypt had a sword missing that was not the same as the one carried by Hodor. Could there be a ghost? Maester Luwin is mentioned. Benjen? Could Rickkon and Osha backtracked and head back to go deeper into the crypts to hide? A wythe?

[MindLikeWarp]

I think it was Theon. All the rest of the chapter titles have to do with the person whose POV it is. I think Theon, who is showing signs of multiple personalities, has a Tyler Durden inside of him that is "The Ghost of Winterfell".

[Ser Frank Haven]

It could be coldhands!

[Ser Frank Haven]

It could be coldhands!

[Steve Moss]

These deaths resemble the murders that Jaqen H'gar did at Harrenhal at Arya's bidding. We know he can take on any appearance that he likes. For whatever reason, he is my guess simply because that would be badass.

If we are going this route, I vote it's Syrio Florel. While looking for Arya he stopped off at Winterfell, encountered Little Walder, gave him a dancing lesson and, in a disgusted rage because of his ineptitude, killed him.

It was Syrio pretending to be Master Luwin. :smoking:

Darn it! Beat me to it. :)

I think it was Theon. All the rest of the chapter titles have to do with the person whose POV it is. I think Theon, who is showing signs of multiple personalities, has a Tyler Durden inside of him that is "The Ghost of Winterfell".

The first rule of Fight Club, . . ..

[Ellroy]

Thanks Steel Wind. If Maester Luwin is still alive it would be so cool! Thanks for giving me hope!

[Steel_Wind]

Thanks Steel Wind. If Maester Luwin is still alive it would be so cool! Thanks for giving me hope!

I don't know.

The whole lack of a missing sword in the crypts is making me think that maybe the murderer really is Theon with a multiple personality disorder.

With the missing sword it seemed like a neat puzzle. Without one? I'm not so sure of this Luwin thing. 24 hours later I'm thinking it might be a crackpot theory and Theon might make a lot more sense.

[cteresa]

The Big Walder suggestion seems spot on to me.

[Ser Pistus]

When we last saw Maester Luwin, he was dying from a mortal wound, asked Osha to finish him quickly, and Osha said yes.

So it is absolutely logical that Osha did not do what Luwin asked, Luwin recovered from the mortal wound, survived in the crypts for 2 years, eating snow, and now he, a maester of the Citadel, starts killing armed soldiers using his ninja skills.

[Reyne]

When we last saw Maester Luwin, he was dying from a mortal wound, asked Osha to finish him quickly, and Osha said yes.

So it is absolutely logical that Osha did not do what Luwin asked, Luwin recovered from the mortal wound, survived in the crypts for 2 years, eating snow, and now he, a maester of the Citadel, starts killing armed soldiers using his ninja skills.

I think this is my favorite crackpot theory now (even more so than Sandor and Gregor are brothers)

[Markus]

One other possibility are those who were tasked to bring back Lady's bones to the Crypts. Does anyone remember if Lady's bones had arrived at Winterfell before it was sacked? Those might be good candidates as well.

Lady's bones arrived in AGoT and were buried in an ancient lichyard. The guardsmen who brought them would probably have been among those killed at Winterfell later.

As to the killings in Winterfell, I thought it was clearly suggested that all but Little Walder were done by the spearwives.

As for Little Walder, Manderly would have had the strongest motive. He hates the Freys in general and Little Walder was even supposed to marry his grand-daughter. A guy who serves up his enemies in a pie would also be able to order the killing of a child, I suppose.

I suppose Big Walder could have had a falling out with his cousin and decided to take advantage of the situation and blame it on Manderly. But he wasn't the cruel one among the two and smaller besides.

[jxd]

I think it was Theon. All the rest of the chapter titles have to do with the person whose POV it is. I think Theon, who is showing signs of multiple personalities, has a Tyler Durden inside of him that is "The Ghost of Winterfell".

I think it is Theon too, and I also get the Fight Club vibe from those chapters.

1. he couldn't sleep

2. he wanders about the castle.

3. he met the hooded man, wonders if he's the killer, but "somehow, he was not afraid".

4. the scene with Roose, Lady Dustin etc just seems way too obvious to rule him out because he's too weak, yet...

5. he had enough strength to carry Jeyne around.

6. Yellow Dick had his dick cut off, he was Ramsay's, and if Theon was really mutilated in that area...

[Lord Damian]

Theon would be interesting. After all of the crap they put him through, he has a deep remorse for betraying the Starks. He might have some part of him giving payback while the other part is petrified of Bolton and his Frey stooges.

[Ipse Dixit 000]

When we last saw Maester Luwin, he was dying from a mortal wound, asked Osha to finish him quickly, and Osha said yes.

So it is absolutely logical that Osha did not do what Luwin asked, Luwin recovered from the mortal wound, survived in the crypts for 2 years, eating snow, and now he, a maester of the Citadel, starts killing armed soldiers using his ninja skills.

While I lean toward the spearwives/manderly explanation, it is worth noting that Luwin is among the small group of maesters with a valyrian steel link in his chain. Now, magic didn't work too well when he forged it, but as we know, that has changed. We also know melisandre doesn't need food (she claims), moquorro (sp?) can heal people (presumably himself too), and mel can kill with her shadows.

Luwin's not a red wizard or anything, but we don't know what he's capable of. It's likely that he was in the loop though, in terms of magical developments, at least with Marwyn. So there's a potential explanation for Luwin transforming into a vengeful badass.

[delete this account pls]

In ACoK, they claim to take 3 swords. Osha takes Ned's, Meera takes Rickard's, and Bran takes Brandon's.

In ASoS, we find that Hodor took one of the older swords.

Making 4.

They say they took 3 in ASoS, so I can see where it may be unclear--but I don't think they were counting Osha's sword since she wasn't there with them.

No, they definitely only took three - the sword Hodor is using is the one Bran took. He lets Hodor use it from Storm onwards.

ETA; Not sold on this theory, but I will add, when Maetser Luwin was dying, he was proped up beneath the heart tree in the godswood. And we now know that when you give the heart tree blood, it gives it power.

Also, I agree the Maester Luwin we used to know wouldnt kill Little Walder Frey. Being nearly murdered and watching your home get burned down around you can kind of change a man's perspective though.