[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff 2

[cteresa]

To continuing discussion of Young Griff, its paternity and what I&V really mean.

Even still. The point is people are claiming that Young Griff was Illyrio by Serra. Your quote just disproves it. Unless he was into toddlers. Young Griff is looked at as like 15 or so by Tyrion. Danny is what 15 or 16 now? And young griff was supposed to be an infant when she was born. So that sounds about right even if it's a year or two off because as a teen there cam be huge difference in age looks because of puberty is random thing.

Dany is 16-17 I think? Aegon would be 1.5-2 years older than her. Dany was born 9 months after Aegon´s "death" and Aegon was about 1 year when killed right? Making Aegon sort of 18-19. But I would dismiss the apparent age as proof, people can not tell apart 16 and 19 that well, they judge on manners, confidence and other clues. (OTOH we are told he is still growing and looks like he will have a growth spurt still to come). Mind you, if Aegon is an impostor planned from infancy, then they could have gotten the ages right. Connington got him when he was a young child, a 2 or 3 age incongruency would have been noticeable even by a knight.

And I don´t understand the timing thing. Does Illyrio mention when he married Serra? I think Dany came to his house when she was a child, but that does not preclude that he already had a Plan Aegon running along some place else.

[Ran]

Dany and Viserys were relatively recent arrivals to Illyrio's household. She was a young girl when they left Braavos and started wandering among a number of Free Cities before finally ending up on Illyrio's doorstep. I would not be surprised if he takes them in... roughly around the time that he knows Khal Drogo is looking for a bride, and/or Jon Arryn's death.

[Raventhal]

To continuing discussion of Young Griff, its paternity and what I&V really mean.

Even still. The point is people are claiming that Young Griff was Illyrio by Serra. Your quote just disproves it. Unless he was into toddlers. Young Griff is looked at as like 15 or so by Tyrion. Danny is what 15 or 16 now? And young griff was supposed to be an infant when she was born. So that sounds about right even if it's a year or two off because as a teen there cam be huge difference in age looks because of puberty is random thing.

Dany is 16-17 I think? Aegon would be 1.5-2 years older than her. Dany was born 9 months after Aegon´s "death" and Aegon was about 1 year when killed right? Making Aegon sort of 18-19. But I would dismiss the apparent age as proof, people can not tell apart 16 and 19 that well, they judge on manners, confidence and other clues. (OTOH we are told he is still growing and looks like he will have a growth spurt still to come). Mind you, if Aegon is an impostor planned from infancy, then they could have gotten the ages right. Connington got him when he was a young child, a 2 or 3 age incongruency would have been noticeable even by a knight.

And I don´t understand the timing thing. Does Illyrio mention when he married Serra? I think Dany came to his house when she was a child, but that does not preclude that he already had a Plan Aegon running along some place else.

Actually I am wrong. I thought Serra was the woman Illyrio took to satisfy his desire for Dany.

[cteresa]

ah, ok.

I think the coloring precludes (and the psychology!) YG being Illyrio+Serra. Serra had blue eyes (and not quite silver hair. Not that we know the color of YG´s hair!). Does Illyrio´s eye color get mentioned anywhere?

[cteresa]

People have suggested YG as a real Targaryen blyblow. People have suggested Varys as a Targaryen by blow himself and castrated as some sort of dynastic thing. But Illyrio, what about him? What if the Targaryen byblow was Illyrio himself?

[Ran]

Suggested that one too, actually. Illyrio could be the Blackfyre/Targaryen descendant, I suppose, although I tend to believe he is genuinely Pentoshi and I'm not sure we have any sign of that bunch there.

Mind you, regarding the coloring, while Serra's eyes are described as blue, that's a portrait miniature. Consider Daario Nahaeris, with his blue eyes that seem almost purple (or Edric Dayne's blue eyes that seem almost purple, for that matter). And then we have Lyseni with clearly violet or lilac eyes. Who knows what ran around in Serra's bloodlines, or what any offspring of her and Illyrio might look like.

If you even wanted to go ultra-looney... Varys and Serra were siblings (remember, Varys is also Lyseni). Infant Blackfyres during or around the War of the Ninepenny Kings, one castrated as a dynastic "mercy" and bought by mummers, the other sold off to a pleasure house. Or descendants of Aerion Targaryen, I suppose.

But that's just craziness. But the very base, I believe Aegon is Illyrio's son, possibly by Serra, possibly by someone else, set up with the intent of ending up king.

[Claireducky]

But that's just craziness. But the very base, I believe Aegon is Illyrio's son, possibly by Serra, possibly by someone else, set up with the intent of ending up king.

I agree-- Illyrio shows just too much personal attachment to this kid-- seeming so sad when he didn't get to see him, and sending along ginger candy for him.

[cteresa]

:)

I think the arguments about eye color are valid, for real life. Not sure if within book, the same logic applies. I think what we can get from Serra´s looks is that Illyrio is into blondes (Dany and Serra).

YG as Illyrio´s son, I really think it is overreaching. He has no apparent heirs or children, risk his only child to gain it something which might of dubious importance (Littlefinger for example would find the throne not nearly as important as the ones behind it with the real power) and then have to deny it always? He is a far more powerful person than to have to risk his only child on something very likely to get it killed - and even if it works the child is lost to the father, and without guarantees of the safety of a dynasty.

[cteresa]

I agree-- Illyrio shows just too much personal attachment to this kid-- seeming so sad when he didn't get to see him, and sending along ginger candy for him.

strictly speaking, that is not a LOT of personal attachment to a kid whose education he oversaw it. He seems sad (possibly sad about the likely life expectancy of YG now) and sends him some candy. That is it.

[nikkodemus]

Why can't Young Griff be the real thing? WE knew it was coming since the vision with Dany, right?

'We need one more' He wouldn't say that about Jon, unless he was already taking the death of Aegon for granted and was planning to kidnap another girl and have another bastard. They needed one more dragon head after Aegon, so if he's telling Dany that, obviously Dany's one and obviously Aegon's still alive.

Don't know why people putting up reviews saying it's contrived, and cheap. That was the best part of the book, Aegon just popping up on some random boat and just deciding, "hey, let's move for Westeros now. If everyone else is going to be retarded and waste time, let's just pick up the pace and do it. Eff away with Dany and Meereen and that Slaver's shit."

To make YG somebody else's son? (He was already a fake son to Griff). After all of that? And Illyrio's or Varys'? Who the eff would care? The theme of ASOIF is that inheritance is everything, if you're from a good house, you're important. If we love your father/brother/mother, we automatically love you. Even better if that relation is a badass.

Look at the Viper situation, he made the man hugely badass to get the love, killed him for the angst factor, then gave you the host of Sand snakes for you to transfer that love to. Notice all of them are untouched so far and only Quentyn is dead. Nephew who doesn't inherit the cool doesn't count. And if one sand snake dies, your love for the rest just concentrates. That GRRM's general pattern.

He's already built a fanbase for Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells and Targs. Specifically,the supposedly dead/lost across the Narrow Sea Targs - Rhaegar's children, and Dany. We love Rhaegar, even though he's dead, Martin's built that character into a badass with goodly morals.

GRRM's clearly counted on YG being the big bang for this book, (unless there was another big bang that I totally missed cause everything with Dany and Tyrion was mundane to me). I think he especially made it so mundane to make YG more of a big bang. So why would he botch that up deliberately? After laying the ground work to make it so much of a "big bang/omg/Yes! At long last!" ASOIAF development.

Jon's too centered in the wildings plot, Dany's still sorting out her shit after like a thousand chapters. So i think this entire plan with YG and is the kickstart that'll get the whole iceberg moving. A POV with a purpose is exactly what ASOIF needs at this point after running a series of Shaggy Dogs.

For the last three books, Dany is in full Shaggy dog mode, to the point where nothing she does matters unless she stumbles across a vast hoard of dragon eggs somewhere.

Tyrion has to die if Martin wants to maintain that "no one is safe" feeling for the last two books or else it becomes "all underdogs are safe - inc. bastards, naive girls, ugly people/ maimed people/fat people". All princes, fake or otherwise beware.

Another decoy POV, doomed to die? Again? It'll destroy the story. Too much fake children/fake people/fake deaths/ fake prophecy/fake swords already. If Martin does that, in retrospect ADWD becomes and even worse book and a total, unmitigated, unadulterated Shaggy Dog. Almost a Fake Book. How many decoy protagonist are we supposed to care about?

If GRRM gives the slightest shit about his fans, YG has to be the real thing. Otherwise, all other points of view are pointless, and he should have just made the whole thing about Dany and Tyrion, his two favs. Seriously.

Good authors are supposed to know what their fans are willing to take and what they wont. So far GRRMs playing it wild and loose with keeping his fanbase appeased. He's bound to notice the massive frowny face hovering over Dany. Jon could come back with his AA plotline, but Dany? She's lost so much momentum, she can't hold a fanbase for two more books. No way. I thought that while she was missing that she was flying across to Westeros, but she actually went back into the Dothraki Sea. No effing way can she get back that hype after running it into the ground humpin on Daario's leg and wearing tokars and fancy slippers. She has "Shaggy dog/decoy/ waste of mofo-ing time" stamped on her forehead. The best GRRM can do with her now is send her raving, batshit crazy like Aerion. That's the only way at least that i see myself even slightly interested in her again.

YG is the only arc building up some steam. GRRM derails that, and its the pale mare riding through the entire ASOIAF. At least in my most humble opinion.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Inspite of his rapist father, Aegon is one of the most likeable characters to emerge in the last two books. I'd prefer him over Daenerys. I fervently hope he is the real thing.

But you guys please hate him. Seems like Martin kills off the loved ones with a passion.

[seppuku]

You know, if he was the real Aegon why would Illyrio give Dany the dragon eggs and not the rightful heir? Just something to chew on.

[Solid Snake]

I'd be disappointed if Aegon turns out to be a fake, or the son of Illyrio. Even given their many missteps, I've always seen Illyrio and Varys as some of the most intelligent, well-informed people in the realm, and for them to have been scheming this particular plot for almost two decades, and for them to be wrong, either intentionally or inadvertently, would be most disappointing.

Varys especially claims several times to be conducting all of his actions for the good of the realm. If Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, and would be a decent ruler to boot, I think that is for the good of the realm. If this was all a scheme to put his friend's son on the throne by way of a lie, that makes him just as self-serving as every other character. I hope it does not go down that route.

[nikkodemus]

The eggs, I don't think, really count for much. Considering the way GRRM describes them in the Dunk and Egg prequels, every Tom, Dick and Harry Targaryn had one in their cradles. Even Rhaegar probably had an egg, Egg had an egg, so having an egg doesn't reaaly count much for disproving or disproving bloodlines. It just probably that Dany just got the blood sacrificing/voodoo part of it right. Egg burnt down summerhall trying to do it and Aerion burnt down himself. Egg the sixth really wouldn't jump at the chance to play with fire.

[chiffchaff]

Why does YG have to be Aegon in order to rule? Seems to me that Varys and Illyrio have attempted to create an ideal ruler, does it really matter whether or not he is a Targ? It may affect whether or not he is a head of the dragon, but it doesn't mean that his path to the throne is suddenly derailed if Illyrio is his father. I could care less if he isn't the true heir to the throne as long as he turns out to be a good leader. If pretending to be a Targ gets him there, than so be it.

This whole thing reminds of Varys' riddle to Tyrion. All that matters is belief.

[Talleyrand]

You know, if he was the real Aegon why would Illyrio give Dany the dragon eggs and not the rightful heir? Just something to chew on.

Because at this point Dragon's eggs are nothing more than pretty baubles to the majority of people in both Westeros and Essos

[nikkodemus]

Why does YG have to be Aegon in order to rule? Seems to me that Varys and Illyrio have attempted to create an ideal ruler, does it really matter whether or not he is a Targ? It may affect whether or not he is a head of the dragon, but it doesn't mean that his path to the throne is suddenly derailed if Illyrio is his father. I could care less if he isn't the true heir to the throne as long as he turns out to be a good leader. If pretending to be a Targ gets him there, than so be it.

This whole thing reminds of Varys' riddle to Tyrion. All that matters is belief.

Isn't "The truth will be revealed" a major theme in ASOIAF? All secrets come to the light, all prophetic revelations, all bloodlines, all inheritances? Otherwise Dany and Jon become irrelevant. If any jack could come out the box and say, "Hey dudes, I'm gonna do this Aegon thing. It'll work if we all just believe", every single other quest gets insulted. The only way Egg6/YG works is if he's gone through the same exile/hardship/living on a boat eating biscuits hardship as everyone else. Otherwise, why go into secret at all? He could just hang out in Pentos and wait for the right time to make his move.

Five books in, some faker popping out of the blue with some "I was groomed for righteousness" attitude doesn't really cut it when you have Jon freezing his ass of and Dany bouncing from warlord to warlord in the Dothraki Sea.

[Jon Connington's Return]

The eggs were not known to be capable of hatching when given, they were just gifts like jewels. It was Dany's black magic that made them hatch.

[cteresa]

The idea that there might be a "Aegon" (true or false) around has been in speculation since at least ASOS came out - and almost surely before that, but I can only swear personally to the theory being at least 11 years old. And keep in mind we got two prophecies, two things that we have been hit on the head with for a long time:

- three heads has the dragon, 3 dragons, 1 rider for each dragon. And Targaryens having a special connection to dragons. Hence the speculation for a hidden Targaryen. Jon´s cover has been blown right from first book (though seriously, lots, most readers do not get there on their own). Maybe somebody else. AND it does not even have to be Aegon. Or some other interpretation.

- mummer´s dragon associated with Dany´s Slayer of Lies prophecies. There has been speculation for a long time as well that this might be a Aegon-Targaryen impostor. A fake dragon. And now in ADWD we get a Aegon pretender showing up from people with dubious shady motivations, and no convincing evidence yet that he is a Targaryen. Maybe GRRM has just decided to introduce a central, important real-third-head-of-the-dragon on his 5th book and is going to introduce the fake Targaryen dragon later. But I think the odds are that YG is the mummer´s dragon.

[cteresa]

Regarding Dany´s dragon eggs, I am on the field that yes, they are a absolutely meaningful wedding present:

- we have a character whose birth matches that prophecy precisely, salt, smoke.

- she is dreaming of dragons before she receives the eggs.

- she receives not one, but 3, like the prophecy for the 3 dragon eggs. She connects more strongly at once to the black and red egg, Drogon to be, but also the Targaryen colors.

So in a series where so much is a tapestry of clues and intentions and prophecies and magic and hidden forces (citadel, I&V, whoever else), I find it hard to take that the authorial intent is that the 3 dragons ending in the end of the foreseen person is only going to happen by accident. Though I don´t think we can conclude anything decisive because:

- I&V might have been tools themselves. Some associate, some merchant with a hidden intention might have just shown up and convinced Illyrio to give them.

- the other good reason why we can not conclude anything either, is because we can NOT be certain that Illyrio´s intentions are really to help restore Targaryens to anything or help the magic came back.