[ADwD Spoilers] Young Griff 2

[fuelpagan]

There is no reason at all to think Connington was involved in the rescue. If he was we would almost surely have learned of it.

And yes Varys isn't trustworthy, which is why they brought Jon Connington into it in the first place. People in Westeros will believe that a silver haired purple eyed boy presented to them by Rhaeghar's best friend, is Rhaeghar's son. They wouldn't trust Varys like they will Connington. Connington gives them credibility - that's his role.

So what story does honorable Jon Connington tell people how he knows beyond a doubt Aegon didn't die in the sack at King's Landing. I don't see him lying. Secrets are one thing, outright lying is another. If Connington is relying on Varys word, the moment he tells someone else that, that credibility means zilch.

[Dragonfish]

Double post.

[Dragonfish]

We know GRRM uses unreliable narrator.

My quote was all dialogue. No narrator.

That is what Tyrion deduces happened, not what actually happened. Therefore proves nothing. It's like using a Cersei chapter to deduce Davos is dead.

*Sigh* I knew you were going to say something like this. Rest assured, it's important to look at the context. Here, I'll help by providing a bigger quote for you (this is a conversation between Tyrion and YG):

"A true friend, our Lord Connington. He must be, to remain so fiercely loyal to the grandson of the king who took his lands and titles and sent him into exile. A pity about that. Elsewise Prince Rhaegar's friend might have been on hand when my father sacked King's Landing, to save Prince Rhaegar's precious little son from getting his royal brains dashed out against the wall."

The lad flushed. "That was not me. I told you. That was some tanner's son from Pisswater Bend whose mother died birthing him. His father sold him to Lord Varys for a jug of Arbor gold. He had other sons but had never tasted Arbor gold. Varys gave the Pisswater boy to my lady mother and carried me away."

"Aye." Tyrion moved his elephants. "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne...assuming that our fair Daenerys takes you for her consort."

"She will. She must."

The important points that can be drawn from this quotation:

1. Aegon is the first person to begin explaining the switch, and he prefaces this by saying, "I told you." Tyrion then continues the explanation of the switch with a fairly insightful amount of detail involved (he knows that Illyrio hid Aegon on a poleboat instead of, say, at his own manse). He then ends it by saying "it does make for a splendid story." I think it's pretty clear from context that Tyrion is merely repeating what he has already been told by YG during their cyvasse game (with perhaps some info drawn from his previous cyvasse game with Haldon).

2. Even if you don't accept the above interpretation, which I think is very difficult to do, there is still the fact that Aegon never corrects Tyrion's "guesses." He's very quick to correct him when Tyrion suggests it was really Aegon who died in King's Landing, but then doesn't correct him when Tyrion apparently continues his own conjecture as to the details of the switch. If Tyrion got something wrong, it's odd that Aegon doesn't bother correcting him, especially given how skeptical his tone is (more on that below).

3. As mentioned in the very last point, Tyrion seems to be skeptical of the whole story. He says it's a pity Jon Connington wasn't there to protect baby Aegon, implying that it's rather convenient that none of the people currently on the boat were actually personally involved in the switch at King's Landing. He then ends his summation of events by saying, "It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne..." Tyrion's tone seems to be somewhat mocking of the whole idea, as if it's all too good to be true. Given how much the "songs and stories" are shown to be exaggerated and sometimes outright false, I'm inclined to agree with Tyrion.

[fuelpagan]

My quote was all dialogue. No narrator.

There was dialogue that says Bran and Rickon are dead. There is dialogue saying Davos is dead. Dialogue from a person who wasn't there, or was a child and heard stories, doesn't prove the actual event. It hints at it giving you a taste of what happened without divulging all the details the author wants to keep hidden. That is unreliable narrative. If Jon Connington says he was at location X during the sack, or some other character says I was with Jon at location X during the KL sack, then you can be sure he wasn't there.

*Sigh* I knew you were going to say something like this. Rest assured, it's important to look at the context. Here, I'll help by providing a bigger quote for you (this is a conversation between Tyrion and YG):

The important points that can be drawn from this quotation:

1. Aegon is the first person to begin explaining the switch, and he prefaces this by saying, "I told you." Tyrion then continues the explanation of the switch with a fairly insightful amount of detail involved (he knows that Illyrio hid Aegon on a poleboat instead of, say, at his own manse). He then ends it by saying "it does make for a splendid story." I think it's pretty clear from context that Tyrion is merely repeating what he has already been told by YG during their cyvasse game (with perhaps some info drawn from his previous cyvasse game with Haldon).

2. Even if you don't accept the above interpretation, which I think is very difficult to do, there is still the fact that Aegon never corrects Tyrion's "guesses." He's very quick to correct him when Tyrion suggests it was really Aegon who died in King's Landing, but then doesn't correct him when Tyrion apparently continues his own conjecture as to the details of the switch. If Tyrion got something wrong, it's odd that Aegon doesn't bother correcting him, especially given how skeptical his tone is (more on that below).

3. As mentioned in the very last point, Tyrion seems to be skeptical of the whole story. He says it's a pity Jon Connington wasn't there to protect baby Aegon, implying that it's rather convenient that none of the people currently on the boat were actually personally involved in the switch at King's Landing. He then ends his summation of events by saying, "It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne..." Tyrion's tone seems to be somewhat mocking of the whole idea, as if it's all too good to be true. Given how much the "songs and stories" are shown to be exaggerated and sometimes outright false, I'm inclined to agree with Tyrion.

1. Aegon was a baby and only knows about what he was told of the event. He doesn't know every detail about who and what happened and who else might have been involved. Cersei hears a story about someone seeing Davos head and hands at White harbor. Which there where a head and hands looking like Davos on the wall, that doesn't prove the actual story of what happened.

2. Again you are relying on a child to remember the exact details of the event. He doesn't know anything other than what he has been told, which if thinks he is Aegon and actually isn't, what he has been told amounts to a hill of beans. He knows the basics, which I don't argue with. Varys did orchestrate this I have no doubt.

3. I take it as Tyrion suspects Jon Connington was involved in his mocking sort of way. He knows darn well if Jon Connington was rescuing the boy with Varys his father wouldn't have found them in Varys secret passage ways.

In the end you have one person making guesses and the other was a baby at the time. Neither of them are reliable for the actual story.

This proves nothing on whether Jon Connington was or wasn't part of the rescue.