Ran Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Not to put a fine point on it, but I couldn't tell you what a 6-year-old looked like like a baby, and it's hard to tell what features come from a parent or not. Rhaegar was beautiful, and... that's about it.Illyrio and Serra were beautiful too, it seems. Hrm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Illyrio and Serra were beautiful too, it seems. Hrm...and they are the only people beautiful enough in their world to have given birth to YG 18orso years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 No. In that case the image would be a real dragon on a stage or a mummer´s dragon turning into a real dragon, or something else. I am sure GRRM could came up with an image for that.I'm unconvinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Targaryen Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Before the epilogue, I thought he was fake.After the epilogue, he seems very real. Varys clearly believes he's real (no reason to lie to a dead man) and he would be the one who made it all happen.Aegon is Aegon. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 A dragon puppet dancing for a cheering crowd could merely imply a dragon whose strings are being manipulated and controlled by others -- which we already know Young Griff is.But combined with the "slayer of lies" part of the prophecy, the implication is definitely one of fraudulence. YG could have a dragon shaped birthmark on his ass for all we know, and that's how Connington would know....I'm really not sure what your point is here. Sure, Aegon could have a birthmark, but we're never told he does, so speculating that he does is just useless.No but he definitely spent a lot of time looking at Elia, and especially Rhaegar ;) I think Griff would be able to tell if the kid was a fake better than anyone. If YG ends up not being Aegon I will be extremely upset, why get us all excited about Aegon not being dead only for him to turn out to have been dead all along.The idea that Griff would be able to tell if YG was really Aegon is just ridiculous. People see what they want to see. Griff wants to redeem himself for the fall of House Targaryen, which he largely blames on himself. When YG is presented to him, and he is told that this child is the son of the prince he failed, then it is only natural that he would insist on believing it. Especially since the child has all the classic Targ features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Before the epilogue, I thought he was fake.After the epilogue, he seems very real. Varys clearly believes he's real (no reason to lie to a dead man) and he would be the one who made it all happen.Aegon is Aegon. Deal with it.1. Please point to the part where Varys says that Aegon is the same Aegon that was born to Rhaegar.2. By your logic, Sansa must really be named Alayne, because she never calls herself Sansa even when she thinks no one but Littlefinger is around.3. Varys' little birds are within earshot, and there could be others (say, Qyburn's spies) in the walls listening in. No way is he going to reveal that Aegon is fake when others are around to hear. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiffchaff Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I can't recall the supposed movements of baby Aegon. Varys ferries him across the narrow see to where? When does Griff connect with YG/Aegon? Where was Griff during his exile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 I'm unconvinced.Good. If we all thought the same it would be very boring. And if we all could guess where GRRM is going with his plot, I am sure it would be very dispiriting for an author. So we shall see.Nothing is clear-cut yet if YG is Aegon. The doubt was planted, the confusion. I think readers are supposed to take it at face value, just like Jon being Ned´s son. The rest is subtext. But the subtext looks, for many of us, that YG is a fake. The only way to be sure, of course is on later books.(but there is no way he is going to turn out to be the true Aegon. No way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solid Snake Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I can't recall the supposed movements of baby Aegon. Varys ferries him across the narrow see to where? When does Griff connect with YG/Aegon? Where was Griff during his exile?After his exile, Jon Connington was working with the Golden Company. Aegon, I imagine, spent some time with Illyrio, but according to Varys at the end he had spent the past several years living a meager, working life, learning how to be a humble and just ruler. I don't think it's been explained when Connington and Aegon met up again, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikkodemus Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 "Slayer of Lies" could be more literal. Fake dragon could be an actual fake dragon created by the Other who lies. All Rhollor are flocking to Dany. There's obviously some dragon magic about to take place at the wall with all the dragon talk up there.Stannis is practically a zombie and seems to be going the opposite way instead of into the fire. He needs to be slain anyway you look at it. And he was totally occupied with dragons to the point where he wanted to sacrifice his nephew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 I can't recall the supposed movements of baby Aegon. Varys ferries him across the narrow see to where? When does Griff connect with YG/Aegon? Where was Griff during his exile?we don´t know where YG was before Connington got him. But we do know it has been some 17 years past the sack of KL (right? ). Aegon was about 1 at the time of the sack. Connington was told about YG 12 years ago"Griff wondered how many of them knew who he was. Few enough. Twelve years is a long time"so presumably Connington was given a child aged 5 to 6. If Connington knew about the child before he would not staid in the golden company. So there is no "provenance" given in the books for YG between the sack of KL and some 5 years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Human Abstract Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Good. If we all thought the same it would be very boring. And if we all could guess where GRRM is going with his plot, I am sure it would be very dispiriting for an author. So we shall see.Nothing is clear-cut yet if YG is Aegon. The doubt was planted, the confusion. I think readers are supposed to take it at face value, just like Jon being Ned´s son. The rest is subtext. But the subtext looks, for many of us, that YG is a fake. The only way to be sure, of course is on later books.(but there is no way he is going to turn out to be the true Aegon. No way)By the way, where can I find this? I wish to re-read these parts and see if I might change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 By the way, where can I find this? I wish to re-read these parts and see if I might change my mind.which parts specifically? The 12 years is that chapter, first Griffin PoV chapter I think, when he goes back to the golden company and lots of backpatting and background info and he hires them to came to westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 "Slayer of Lies" could be more literal. I don't think it's possible to literally slay a lie.Fake dragon could be an actual fake dragon created by the Other who lies. All Rhollor are flocking to Dany. There's obviously some dragon magic about to take place at the wall with all the dragon talk up there.Stannis is practically a zombie and seems to be going the opposite way instead of into the fire. He needs to be slain anyway you look at it. And he was totally occupied with dragons to the point where he wanted to sacrifice his nephew.Well, if you want to argue that Aegon isn't the mummer's dragon, then that's fine. But people here are arguing that Aegon is both the mummer's dragon and the real Aegon, which is very difficult to do given the "slayer of lies" prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 and they are the only people beautiful enough in their world to have given birth to YG 18orso years ago?No, but they're the ones we know of. Illyrio has means and motive. Someone else could... but it's hard to just consider 'Some random people' at this juncture.Especially when Illyrio's lying to Tyrion and obfuscating his real reasons for doing what he's doing. There's something at stake worth more than castles and gold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon AS Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 No but he definitely spent a lot of time looking at Elia, and especially Rhaegar ;) I think Griff would be able to tell if the kid was a fake better than anyone. If YG ends up not being Aegon I will be extremely upset, why get us all excited about Aegon not being dead only for him to turn out to have been dead all along.How would he be able to tell? Looking at it, the only time we know for sure Connington and Aegon were in the same place at the same time was at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Remember that Connington's father died relatively early and he was lord of Griffin's Roost in his own right at a young age (IIRC Jaime thinks of him as "Young Lord Connington"). He wouldn't have all that much time hanging out with the royal family, no matter how much he enjoyed looking at Rhaegar.And then in exile he is shown this 5 year old kid and with roughly the right eye and hair colour and is told it's the son of Rhaegar and Elia (incidentally, Aegon not being a "pure" Targaryen gives an additional way of explaining any more noticeable variances in looks), you really think he can say with any certainty whether this is true or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 No, but they're the ones we know of. Illyrio has means and motive. Someone else could... but it's hard to just consider 'Some random people' at this juncture. I have no difficulty in considering I&V finding some random orphan with lysene coloring at this juncture (or juncture before the kid was 5 or 6, preferrably much younger). Varys has to get his little birds from somewhere, surely it would not be hard to tell them to look for a baby with Valyrian coloring. That seems much much more likely to me that Illyrio having had a child with Serra, his only child, of about the same age (even if we established the child might have light coloring. And blue eyes are not purple nor serra´s looks that valyrian in description).Especially when Illyrio's lying to Tyrion and obfuscating his real reasons for doing what he's doing. There's something at stake worth more than castles and gold.Totally. He has some other objective, and perhaps magical or strongly anti-magical. Some secret conspiracy. That I believe. That his conspiracy is something as simple as trying to gain a throne, an unlikely risky throne for his only child, it seems both unlikely and stupid of him if true. And thinking that he would stupid enough to think being king is such a great thing to wish on your child is missing the lessons we already have been lecture about the nature of the game of thrones. Who is more powerful, safer? The players of the game or their pawns? And you think Illyrio would be stupid enough to use his own son, his only son from a wife he loved, as a pawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Making the assumption that he's his only son though, surely? Illyrio notes he had two wives. Serra was the second. Who knows, there may be some Mopatis' around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cteresa Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Making the assumption that he's his only son though, surely? Illyrio notes he had two wives. Serra was the second. Who knows, there may be some Mopatis' around.Maybe there are, but we have not seen much evidence - and surely any child of a wife he loved he would want to cherish, not risk. And my big problem with this theory is that it assumes that for a banker, merchant, player of the free cities that they would have a romantic view of monarchy, that they would think it such a honour or so profitable that they would consider it worth risking the death of their child (and the pain of raising as somebody else). This contradicts all we have seen so far about the profitability and life expectancy of kings in Westeros. Wanting their child to be king is the thought of a medieval lord. But on this series, there are people with conflicting value systems. See our powerful the Iron Bank is, compared to the Iron Throne. And I do not think Illyrio would have a romantic view of the power and glory of being king of Westeros.Mind you, he and Varys have secret objectives and intentions. But IMO YG is one of the tools they use, not the objective of their plans ( specially since Varys has been manouvering from way before real Aegon was born). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 People send their children to war all the time, though, even to certain death. I don't really buy the argument from sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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