[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[ShockWaveSix]

Just finished the book, and my oppinion can be summarized as: We waited most of a decade for *this*? :(

To me it had the feel of lots of schemeing and maneuvering, with no one really *doing* much of anything that advanced the overall plotarc of the series. And all the time he spent setting up the sides and armies at Mareen, only to have it go unreselved...

I also really don't like the way that things that we knew to be true for quite some time (Theon being dead, and the Targaryan princling being dead) suddenly are not true anymore. To me that feels like GRRM has run out of creativity and is just reaching.

Also mad about Jon. One of the few characters that I actually still find interesting, and he's dead. Okay, we don't *know* that he's dead, but a dagger in the guts, plus a dagger between the shoulder blades... that's not something you walk away from, ya'know. Especially in the frigid cold with no Maester to attend to him. If he comes back as a Zombie, I'm gonna be pissed.

That's my rant. Very disappointed.

[Lord Morvegil]

Just finished the book, and my oppinion can be summarized as: We waited most of a decade for *this*? :(

To me it had the feel of lots of schemeing and maneuvering, with no one really *doing* much of anything that advanced the overall plotarc of the series. And all the time he spent setting up the sides and armies at Mareen, only to have it go unreselved...

I also really don't like the way that things that we knew to be true for quite some time (Theon being dead, and the Targaryan princling being dead) suddenly are not true anymore. To me that feels like GRRM has run out of creativity and is just reaching.

Also mad about Jon. One of the few characters that I actually still find interesting, and he's dead. Okay, we don't *know* that he's dead, but a dagger in the guts, plus a dagger between the shoulder blades... that's not something you walk away from, ya'know. Especially in the frigid cold with no Maester to attend to him. If he comes back as a Zombie, I'm gonna be pissed.

That's my rant. Very disappointed.

Yup...book was not worth that wait. Maybe a year wait but not 6 years. A filler book.

[Steel_Wind]

Just finished the book, and my oppinion can be summarized as: We waited most of a decade for *this*? :(

To me it had the feel of lots of schemeing and maneuvering, with no one really *doing* much of anything that advanced the overall plotarc of the series. And all the time he spent setting up the sides and armies at Mareen, only to have it go unreselved...

I also really don't like the way that things that we knew to be true for quite some time (Theon being dead, and the Targaryan princling being dead) suddenly are not true anymore. To me that feels like GRRM has run out of creativity and is just reaching.

Also mad about Jon. One of the few characters that I actually still find interesting, and he's dead. Okay, we don't *know* that he's dead, but a dagger in the guts, plus a dagger between the shoulder blades... that's not something you walk away from, ya'know. Especially in the frigid cold with no Maester to attend to him. If he comes back as a Zombie, I'm gonna be pissed.

That's my rant. Very disappointed.

Theon was never dead. We are explicitly told this by Roose Bolton who gives a flayed finger to King Robb and Catelyn a chapter before the Red Wedding in ASoS. Robb orders Roose Bolton to keep him captive at the Dreadfort. You must not have been paying attention. :)

Aegon was prophesied in ACoK, A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Quaithe as well mentions the mummer's dragon.

Aegon is a fake; he's not real. He was Varys' and Illyrio's Plan B after Viserys got himself crowned.

As for Jon, there are clues strewn all over ADwD that he's not dead, that he's AA and that Jon's death is a part of the prophecy. Read the death scene (et tu Bowen) again. His wound is described as "smoking". Bowen March is weeping tears (salt) and above them, Wun Wun is bashing Ser Patrek's bloody corpse against the wall with a shield strapped to his arm (heraldric device: five pointed star - the bleeding star).

You need to read a little deeper, but I appreciate that Jon's death pissed a lot of people off initially. We are mostly all quite certain it isn't perma-death, given that Varamyr shows us in the Prologue that a warg transmigrates to their wolf upon death. So unlike Drogo, Jon's spirit is present to be rejoined to his body should it be healed/raised a la Drogo.

[-eX-]

What I found most annoying is that the only reason AFfC and ADwD are two books is that there was supposedly that much stuff to cover and write about. That is simply not the case! You could have easily cut out numerous chapters of pointless, uneventful traveling. And I say this as someone who actually really liked AFfC, especially Cersei's and Brinne's detailed chapters. But I'd gladly sacrificed them for a more streamlined story telling. As someone said in another thread, I too miss the days when characters would just travel between chapters and simply appear in another location comes the next.

I expected ADwD to be the book where all characters get into their new starting positions, thus to speak, so we can dive right into the action in the next book. But no. None of the characters that tried to meet up with Dany actually did so, she still hasn't trained her Dragons, she still has no army or means of transportation and she still isn't a very good ruler. Meaning that we will spent even more time in Meereen. Yay! <_<

I am also not a fan of important characters and plot points being introduced on short notice and than becoming major players. The fun of reading along book series is seeing characters grow and change, so having new characters with no build up coming out of nowhere cheapens this experience. I mean, Quentyn got at least one mention beforehand, so why did no one toled us that the Golden Company are actually exiled Westrosi knights? That's kind of a huge thing. Same for Aegon and Jon. I am not talking about revealing their true identities sooner, but they could at least been mentioned before, so that the shocking reveal would have actually meant something. Established characters being revealed to have a secret past? Completely new characters being revealed to have a secret past? No emotional reaction.

On the other hand, I am confused that people still throw the "If character X dies I am finished with the series" tantrum. No offense, but by this point it should be clear that even being an established character doesn't necessarily saves you.

[seppuku]

There was so much useless filler in Feast and Dance you could have easily combined the two into one book. 6 years is hilarious wait.

[Just Another Commoner]

Agreed about the filler/too-long-to-fit-1-book nonsense. GRR could cut out all Asha Greyjoy & Quentin Martell's POVs, and size down some Tyrion, Dany, Cersei, and have the exact same story within 1 book. I must assume this was delay was more because it took him so long to figure out what to do with Jon & Dany's stories, so he needed an excuse to work on them 6 years more..

But ADWD had some incredible stuff too! Didnt you all love the Reek chapters? For me, they made up for most of my disappointments :bowdown:

[Raventhal]

Sadly the main plot characters POV were slow and bad in general. Dany = Worst, Jon = Mediocre, Tyrion = Average. All of the side POVs were awesome except Quentin the brooder. It almost like there were two authors writing this book.

[Ser Frank Haven]

Why is every one complaining about everything the man worked hard for this to be put forward if GRRM didn't give a flying Fuck he would have put some stupid shit instead of what's was a truly good book

[Raksha the Demon]

Things I'd like to see in the next book:

1. Melisandre getting through the book without burning anyone alive. Maybe she'll be sidetracked by the love of a good man or woman. Maybe she'll be killed by Wun Wun. I don't care. Getting tired of the burnings.

2. Sansa kissing a man under the age of 25 and liking it.

3. Dany has so much fun training and riding her dragons that she forgets to mope about men for at least two weeks, during which Daario and Hizdahr kill each other.

4. Tyrion meets Dany and they become platonic BFF's.

5. Victarian meets a real kraken and the kraken wins. (yeah, he's badass, but I got real tired of his slaughtering innocent people left and right)

6. Cersei manages to get Varys killed; maybe by accident.

7. Nymeria finds Arya, Arya leaves Faceless Men Academy and heads to Westeros with her.

8. Davos finds little Rickon and Osha and Shaggydog and brings them to Wyman Manderly; where they settle down and are happy for a few months at least. Osha introduces a new exercise program to the Manderlys; Wyman loses a few pounds, but still enjoys Frey Pies.

9. It turns out that Jon Snow did not die, but was badly hurt and has to convalesce, so no zombie-Jon.

10. Theon Takes A Bath and Puts On New Clothes!

[Asarlai]

No offense, but by this point it should be clear that even being an established character doesn't necessarily saves you.

It didn't save Ned, since he had to die for the story. It did save every subsequent major POV character since (and a good amount of non-POV characters). The one other major POV character who did die (Cat), was resurrected. One brutal killing in the first book won't always distract people from Good Ser PoV CharStark coming back from "death" the 18th time. Obviously I exaggerate, and I'm not actually angry or anything, just wanted to make a point.

Here's a handy list:

Alive

Theon Greyjoy, 6 chapters in ACoK, 7 in ADWD.

Cersei Lannister, 10 chapters in AFFC, 2 in ADWD.

Jaime Lannister, 9 chapters in ASoS, 7 in AFFC, 1 in ADWD.

Tyrion Lannister, 9 chapters in AGoT, 15 in ACoK, 10 in ASoS, 12 in ADWD.

Davos Seaworth, 3 chapters in ACoK, 6 in ASoS, 4 in ADWD.

Arya Stark, 5 chapters in AGoT, 10 in ACoK, 13 in ASoS, 3 in AFFC, 2 in ADWD, 1 confirmed in TWoW.

Bran Stark, 7 chapters in AGoT, 7 in ACoK, 4 in ASoS, 3 in ADWD.

Sansa Stark, 6 chapters in AGoT, 8 in ACoK, 7 in ASoS, 3 in AFFC, 1 confirmed in TWoW.

Daenerys Targaryen, 10 chapters in AGoT, 5 in ACoK, 6 in ASoS, 10 in ADWD.

Samwell Tarly, 5 chapters in ASoS, 5 in AFFC.

Brienne of Tarth, 8 chapters in AFFC.

Barristan Selmy, 4 chapters in ADWD.

Aeron Greyjoy, 2 chapters in AFFC, 1 confirmed in TWoW.

Asha Greyjoy, 1 chapter in AFFC, 3 in ADWD.

Victarion Greyjoy, 2 in AFFC, 2 in ADWD.

Areo Hotah, 1 in AFFC, 1 in ADWD.

Arianne Martell, 2 in AFFC.

Jon Connington, 2 in ADWD.

Melisandre of Asshai, 1 in ADWD.

Dead

Eddard Stark, 15 chapters in AGoT.

Arys Oakheart, 1 in AFFC.

Quentyn Martell, 4 chapters in ADWD.

Alive now, was briefly dead

Catelyn Stark, 11 chapters in AGoT, 7 in ACoK, 7 in ASoS.

Hell if I know

Jon Snow, 9 chapters in AGoT, 8 in ACoK, 12 in ASoS, 13 in ADWD.

The only dead POV character I would call "major" is Ned Stark, and he was the big shock that got everyone saying that Mr. Martin isn't afraid to kill off main characters. I cannot speak to what he is or is not "afraid" to do, but while Ned Stark did lose his head, many other main characters (Davos, Arya, Jon, Bran, Tyrion, Asha, Theon, Brienne) have had death cliffhangers many times and always come out alive. Of the three confirmed POV deaths, two were relatively minor characters, together having only 1/3 the chapters of Ned Stark. Fairly main non-POV characters (Robb, Joffrey, Tywin) have died, though, but that's a different beast.

Of course, as of now, being a prologue/epilogue POV is a death sentence, with the count at 7 for 7.

[-eX-]

I didn't say POV character, I said "established character", as in being important to the overall story. Not did I ever say I actually think Jon is dead (For the record, I don't, his scene was rather vague and that normally means there is going to be a twist), I am just annoyed that people still throw these tantrums.

[Jane Doe]

Things I'd like to see in the next book:

1. Melisandre getting through the book without burning anyone alive. Maybe she'll be sidetracked by the love of a good man or woman. Maybe she'll be killed by Wun Wun. I don't care. Getting tired of the burnings.

2. Sansa kissing a man under the age of 25 and liking it.

3. Dany has so much fun training and riding her dragons that she forgets to mope about men for at least two weeks, during which Daario and Hizdahr kill each other.

4. Tyrion meets Dany and they become platonic BFF's.

5. Victarian meets a real kraken and the kraken wins. (yeah, he's badass, but I got real tired of his slaughtering innocent people left and right)

6. Cersei manages to get Varys killed; maybe by accident.

7. Nymeria finds Arya, Arya leaves Faceless Men Academy and heads to Westeros with her.

8. Davos finds little Rickon and Osha and Shaggydog and brings them to Wyman Manderly; where they settle down and are happy for a few months at least. Osha introduces a new exercise program to the Manderlys; Wyman loses a few pounds, but still enjoys Frey Pies.

9. It turns out that Jon Snow did not die, but was badly hurt and has to convalesce, so no zombie-Jon.

10. Theon Takes A Bath and Puts On New Clothes!

:agree:

On #7, Nymeria would be the Phelphs of direwolves.

[MattTaz]

the first time i've actually skim read a GRRM book. The Mereen story was just plain boring. I didnt care what

happened there. And these guys made up most of the book.

Jon was OK. The ending p'd me off until someone pointed out the AA connection.

However Theon was great. Lord Manderley was brilliant. And the sandsnakes just have me craving for more.

Was it worth a 6 year wait for this. Nope.

[Mr. Lahey]

On the whole I feel that was pretty disappointing, but I was bracing for a lot of "set-up" going in. Some observations:

1. Dany's story could have been told in half of the pages. There was too much agonizing over what to do in Meereen before she came to the inevitable conclusion that the Meereenese are completely effed no matter what she does and that her real business is in Westeros. Her folly also cost her surprisingly little- she still has three dragons (until Victarion shows up anyway), almost all of her Unsullied, almost all of her host of freedmen, Barristan Selmy (thanks GRRM, I thought he was meat), even Strong Belwas survived. I don't think her Meereenese diversion humbled her, or taught her much. At least I'm betting we won't hear her fretting over Daario incessantly anymore. I don't even think she mentioned him in the last chapter.

2. There was some awesomeness: Manderly serves up Rhaegar Frey...in a pie (sorry) and has his family take a bite.

3. Another completely unnecessary Dorne chapter. This, at least for me is a pretty empty subplot that is also sufficiently discussed between the second Connington chapter and the epilogue to make having a seperate chapter about it superfluous.

4. Would have liked to at least see Davos reach Skagos and find Rickon without waiting another few years. It seemed like Davos would play a big role in the book but just disappeared.

5. The complete lack of suspense in Jon Snow's "cliffhanger." Ending Jon's storyline (for the book, not the series) this way pretty much had the opposite effect as when Ned Stark was killed. That was shocking, and put people on notice that simply being a main character will not keep main characters safe. Unfortunately, as the series has progressed, death doesn't mean as much as it used to. I feel zero sadness over Jon's "death" and zero suspense over it. He could return as a wight (unlikely, as the corpses in the ice cells have not reanimated). He could be healed by Melisandre, a red priestess, and member of an order who display uncanny healing powers (Victarion). He could be resurrected by Melisandre and become UnJon. He could live on as Ghost. Personally, Steel_Wind's excellent argument has convinced me that Jon is AA and will return as a living human.

6. Several others have put it forward, and I agree, that the "big three" of Tyrion, Jon, and Dany were the weakest story lines in the book, and generally took too long to make not enough progress in either story or character development, Tyrion to a lesser extent than Jon and Dany. The shorter storylines were the more satifying particularly Theon, Connington, and Victarion.

7. Stannis dies "offscreen"? WTF?

Generally, I thought this book tread a lot of water with the Aegon storyline being the only major development. While still writing the book, Martin talked of a major event that other characters would react to late in the book. I cannot for the life of me figure out what he was referring to. Before reading I figured it would be the Wall coming down, or the death of Tommen, or (silly me) Dany landing on Westeros. So, how about some TWOW spoilers...

[JWJ78]

I agree- Big disappointment. I find the issue with Jon to be cheap shock value and not worthy of the character. If Aegon is a fake why the long winded setup? and Quent's WHOLE storyline = pointless waste of time. Way too much time spend with the Ironborn that don't matter in this book and AFFC (why can't Theon just F'ing die already!!!!). The Mereense knot? really that took you 5 years to figure out GRRM? a whole book and Dany is STILL not out of there yet. Tyrion is going around in circles.

Should have been more focused on Bran

Loved the Arya chapters but the Jaime teaser-WTF! so little for these guys but you waste chapters and chapters on BS that's of little importance to the storyline.

At least Dany got to fly :rolleyes:

[Flit]

I get it, some things in the books feel a bit superfluous, I found the Prince who came too late business frustrating, though I understand its final meaning. Dragon blood does not mean you can tame a dragon. Which is great because I hate the idea that Plumm could be a rider.

Though I'm curious about the rage over the book. Did people walk into this one expecting BIG secrets to be revealed? It's the fifth of seven, two big books to come and we're still in the setting up phase. I went into this one knowing that we would get more questions rather than answers.

To be honest, I'm seeing this as the rage that came about over the last Harry Potter book. Sometimes you wait years and years for something, and you expect it to be perfect. You expect it to have everything, and when you come up against a swathe of exposition you get furious you're not getting the answers there and then.

Lacking in patience + waiting years for a series of books = never being happy with the results.

If you give it a month or year, and reread, you might find yourself happier with the product. But there was no way the book could ever live up to the expectations of some who have been waiting for years.

This book was only ever going to be an exposition book. GRRM has characters literally everywhere in this book. He has seven kingdoms to unite and several contenders for the throne. He has an almost requisite to make these books as realistic as possible, which means it's a bitch getting from one place to another. That sixteen year old girls are sometimes just girls and can be bloody annoying moping children mooning after boys with purple beards (her taste level needs to raise, seriously). That when there are swords and axes being wielded, people get maimed. That in order to go forward, you've got to go back.

I understand how some people find chapters annoying, that you might have more investment in another character that wasn't in this book (I'm a Littlefinger fan and there wasn't even a hint!) That there are now maybe too many characters that it's difficult to keep up, or that Dany is a moping mooning drongo who needs to learn how to take a cold shower (like most teens). But complaining that it's a filler book? Did you think this would be the last book of the series?

[Bastard of Varys]

Dance has some really cool moments, though. I am a fan of the series, but not a diehard fan, so my expectations have already been tempered as far back as Game when I realized that favorite characters like Ned can die and the story will still go on. The book did not disappoint me, because I didn't expect too much from it. But I do agree that the long wait makes the volume somewhat of a let down.

[jellydonut]

I agree entirely. The book was awesome in the beginning, but I got more and more worried and disenchanted as I approached the end and begun to realize that nothing was actually going to happen in this book. In the beginning I actually thought at least one dragon would die. I thought Daenerys was leaving Meereen immediately. SO MUCH FOR THAT.

Instead we got 1000 pages of snow storms, an idiot child queen being an idiot as thoroughly and consistently as anyone could, a dwarf being carried, kidnapped and slaved throughout the eastern lands, and a bunch of people traveling but rarely getting anywhere.

I liked a lot of the stuff in between, but when there's no conclusion and nothing of note happens to the story it's all a bit anticlimactic.

[Coals]

Its hard to judge exactly what is filler thou, not knowing where the hell GRRM is going with it. Not the worlds greatest comparison but Harry Potter, another 7 book series, loads of crap in some of the books that in the end became relevant in the final book. Ok not as much "filler" but much smaller books. Filler wise, it didnt piss me off half as much as LotR, too much useless bloody walking in that book :rolleyes:

I get the distinct feeling that alot of people complaining that its taking too long, would complain in the end, if it was all shortened, that there just wasnt the character development and depth to the sotry that we had in the first few books.

[Yoren the rainbow cloak]

your point 7 is wrong i think, in the letter from ramsey has to many holes in it. unless theon escaped with his sister?

danny was so annoying but hopefully she has a big khal and turns badass again. jaime is brown bread.

Robert Strong= Robert Bratheon

On the whole I feel that was pretty disappointing, but I was bracing for a lot of "set-up" going in. Some observations:

1. Dany's story could have been told in half of the pages. There was too much agonizing over what to do in Meereen before she came to the inevitable conclusion that the Meereenese are completely effed no matter what she does and that her real business is in Westeros. Her folly also cost her surprisingly little- she still has three dragons (until Victarion shows up anyway), almost all of her Unsullied, almost all of her host of freedmen, Barristan Selmy (thanks GRRM, I thought he was meat), even Strong Belwas survived. I don't think her Meereenese diversion humbled her, or taught her much. At least I'm betting we won't hear her fretting over Daario incessantly anymore. I don't even think she mentioned him in the last chapter.

2. There was some awesomeness: Manderly serves up Rhaegar Frey...in a pie (sorry) and has his family take a bite.

3. Another completely unnecessary Dorne chapter. This, at least for me is a pretty empty subplot that is also sufficiently discussed between the second Connington chapter and the epilogue to make having a seperate chapter about it superfluous.

4. Would have liked to at least see Davos reach Skagos and find Rickon without waiting another few years. It seemed like Davos would play a big role in the book but just disappeared.

5. The complete lack of suspense in Jon Snow's "cliffhanger." Ending Jon's storyline (for the book, not the series) this way pretty much had the opposite effect as when Ned Stark was killed. That was shocking, and put people on notice that simply being a main character will not keep main characters safe. Unfortunately, as the series has progressed, death doesn't mean as much as it used to. I feel zero sadness over Jon's "death" and zero suspense over it. He could return as a wight (unlikely, as the corpses in the ice cells have not reanimated). He could be healed by Melisandre, a red priestess, and member of an order who display uncanny healing powers (Victarion). He could be resurrected by Melisandre and become UnJon. He could live on as Ghost. Personally, Steel_Wind's excellent argument has convinced me that Jon is AA and will return as a living human.

6. Several others have put it forward, and I agree, that the "big three" of Tyrion, Jon, and Dany were the weakest story lines in the book, and generally took too long to make not enough progress in either story or character development, Tyrion to a lesser extent than Jon and Dany. The shorter storylines were the more satifying particularly Theon, Connington, and Victarion.

7. Stannis dies "offscreen"? WTF?

Generally, I thought this book tread a lot of water with the Aegon storyline being the only major development. While still writing the book, Martin talked of a major event that other characters would react to late in the book. I cannot for the life of me figure out what he was referring to. Before reading I figured it would be the Wall coming down, or the death of Tommen, or (silly me) Dany landing on Westeros. So, how about some TWOW spoilers...