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[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing


ShockWaveSix

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If we spend more than 2 chapters in bloody Mereen for the 6th book I am going to kill somebody

Ya, here's my dream Chapter 1 of the next book:

"Hey Khal Jhaqo. Long time no see."

"Hey Khaleesi. I've decided to join you in order to give you more soldiers and then never speak again."

"Good. Let's go back to Mereen."

<a paragraph about riding without talking follows>

"Wow. What happened here?"

"Hey there. My name's Tyrion and this is my friend Victarion. He just smashed the slavers' fleet and I got all the sellswords to kill the besieging army and join up with your guys. Unfortunately, your dragons accidentally burned down the city so we can't stay here anymore"

"Well shit. What do I do now?"

"We have a big fleet and your nephew's alive and he just started a war in Westeros. Why don't we go there?"

"That's a long way. How are we going to feed all my soldiers on the trip?"

"Hi there, I'm with the Lamb People. We just showed up with all that food you ordered."

"Ha! Who says I didn't do one thing right? Load it up and let's go"

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Except for the pesky fact that Petyr will reveal too much plots. He knows, and does, too much.

I agree but Barristan also knows a lot and yet he never reveals any of it.

Does Barristan tell Dany anything significant about Rhaegar and Aerys? How come he didn't tell Dany that Aerys murdered Eddard Stark's brother and father when she said that Eddard died a "traitor's death."

Barristan brought up Summerhall as if he knows something about it but the reader still knows next to nothing about it. We were in Barristan's head and we learned almost nothing about Summerhall.

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The biggest disappointment I had was with Dany's storyline. Not because the plot advanced at a crawl - and really, without knowing the whole story, we can't outright dismiss Meereen as a filler location for Dany. Perhaps the plot moved forward more than we know right now. No, I disliked it because, despite its length, Dany had very little in the way of character interaction, especially with the people she was hyped up to meet.

She had two very short conversations with Quentyn, then he died.

She saw Tyrion from a distance, but no talking.

Victarion is still at sea.

Aegon frickin' turned around, and got to Westeros before her.

Even Ser Barristan only got in one "history of Westeros" conversation with her, about what we've seen in the previous novels. Isn't this supposed to be his big book? He became a POV character after all, and Jorah is out of the way.

Good storytelling, especially with multiple POV characters, doesn't just come from moving the plot along. Much of the joy comes from seeing different characters interact in meaningful ways, and seeing someone through new eyes.

Random sidenote: I did love how Martin handled the dragons in this book. I think we should have seen more of them, but what we did see was awesome, in the old-timey sense of "inspiring awe", and at the same time bowel-looseningly terrifying. Dany finally riding Drogon was a much-anticipated emotional high (but should have come either much earlier or much later in the book), and the descriptions of Rhaegal and Viserion in the dragonpit far exceeded my expectations for how frightening they were.

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I agree with most of the criticisms, however, I must say that even the chapters seemed to be bloated. So even though there were sparks of genius, there came a point about 300 or so pages in that I knew the first 3 or so pages of a chapter would be laborious. And once someone boarded a ship I was like "goddamn, not another fracking sea voyage!"

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Not much to say really that hasn't been said. Overall a good book but not in the league with the first three. GRRM seems to have forgotten how to combine plot development with character development and the story suffers for it, IMO. Still, I enjoyed seeing the Imp get smacked around and Theon suffering. There were some interesting insights into characters long dead that I was glad to see. Ser Barriston is now one of my favourite POV's. I was disappointed in the Dany chapters. She is one of my favourite POV's as well but this book has diminished that somewhat. Still, after her last chapter I have some hope for her in the next book. Certainly could have done with more Bran.

And I also didn't think for a minute that Jon was dead. He, like the Imp and Dany, is untouchable until the last book.

I should say it took me a lot longer to read this one than it did the rest. Even put it down for a full weekend. Perhaps the long years have slowly leeched my enthusiasm? That being said I'll still be looking forward to TWoW, but with lowered expectations.

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Doubt I'll be saying anything new, but:

(1) I found most of Dany's chapters unbelievably boring. Tons of characters that I don't care about and didn't want to invest my time in. Dany was going to be on her way to Westeros soon, right? I was okay with the first couple of chapters being about Mereen, and then the next five or six were also about Mereen. Then we had another four or so chapters not from Dany's perspective that were also about Mereen. I don't give a shit about Mereen. I don't care about Yunzai ken Yakzhuk or whatever hell their names are in Slaver's Bay (I know that's not someone's name). And by the way I skipped the last four or five Mereen chapters. The first 80% of the story there was worthless, and from reading online, it seems like I didn't miss anything interesting.

(2) Tyrion's chapters were also boring. In Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords I loved Tyrion's chapters. Everytime in Dance with Dragons I saw a Tyrion chapter I just kept hoping "maybe this one will be interesting." None of them were. A lot of traveling and talking and getting introduced to new characters I don't care about or want to care about because they were all filler characters.

(3) Why throw another contender in for the Iron Throne? Four books in we still had three left (actually on Westeros), now we have four, and with Dany it will be five (if she ever goes West, that is).

(4) Absolutley loved all of Theon's chapters. Probably my favorite story arc in all the books. Just so awesome.

(5) Davos and Bran were also great to read. Bran is kind of heavy on the magic/supernatural side, but it's a nice change of pace.

(6) Jon was meh.

(7) The Stannis plot arc has been my favorite since Clash of Kings. I'm glad to see he got a decent bit of screen time and strong progress in gaining the North. Fuck Ramsay.

I still don't beleive in Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised or any of that stuff. They're just words, and we know what Martin thinks about words.

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<Paraphrasing>

"Shall I take my fleet, my dragons and my armies back to Westeros on this nice fleet Xaro gave me?" asked Dany.

"Don't leave us!" cried Reznak!

"Who will protect us from the the Slavers" whined the Freedmen.

"How will we expand this into a twelve book series?" begged the Publisher

Remember, the Wheel of Time was supposed to be a six book series at one point. It is now going to be fourteen, and won't be finished by the original author, who died. This was better than AFFC, but my hopes for the series are considerably diminished.

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I don't see how the series can be finished in seven books unless the plot advances at break neck speed.

Yes. Thank god the English Tolkein (the one with a J in front of his two Rs), did not allow himself to be this badly flummoxed by the Rivendelese Knot, or the Fellowship would never have formed, much less reached Moria.

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<Paraphrasing>

"Shall I take my fleet, my dragons and my armies back to Westeros on this nice fleet Xaro gave me?" asked Dany.

"Don't leave us!" cried Reznak!

"Who will protect us from the the Slavers" whined the Freedmen.

"How will we expand this into a twelve book series?" begged the Publisher

Remember, the Wheel of Time was supposed to be a six book series at one point. It is now going to be fourteen, and won't be finished by the original author, who died. This was better than AFFC, but my hopes for the series are considerably diminished.

LOL

Yes. Thank god the English Tolkein (the one with a J in front of his two Rs), did not allow himself to be this badly flummoxed by the Rivendelese Knot, or the Fellowship would never have formed, much less reached Moria.

And LOL

I can't stop laughing.

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Yeah I was also getting tired of her calling Ned a traitor and wondering WTF Selmy was going to tell her..."well he did murder his father and brother, not the thing to do if you want to inspire loyalty in your people". Selmy didn't get any history lessons in his chapters because the dumb kid flew off on her dragon.

Also how long does it take the guards to carry Ned's corpse to Winterfell from Riverrun...GD. Victarion sailed like 3,000 miles in half a book. Is some fat ass Manderly carrying it up there?

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Also how long does it take the guards to carry Ned's corpse to Winterfell from Riverrun...GD. Victarion sailed like 3,000 miles in half a book. Is some fat ass Manderly carrying it up there?

Obviously the Silent Sisters are having a travelogue for themselves. Maybe visiting a quaint village surrounded by hanging men. Maybe a ruin of some far gone era. Perhaps a rundown inn with a busty innkeep. Possibly heading to a nearby port and taking a small voyage on the Meanderer. Then visiting some foreign temple in Lys before taking the Sweet Ass Time to some barren rock off the Eastern Shore. Then visiting the Sept at Riveru...

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I generally liked the book - I thought it was better than aFfC but not better than the first three, mainly because of what everyone has been saying on here, a lot of great buildup but then not much of a climax.

Probably the biggest disappointment for me was the lack of resolution with the Stannis vs. Bolton war...I was so geared up for that and it just never happened.

I really liked the stuff with Aegon (I hope he's real but am not sure), and I wish there had been more - that was one of the biggest developments in the book and I think it kind of got underplayed.

Some people were kinda pointless, and there was a little too much of people traveling. I know GRRM is giving texture to the world, and I appreciate that, I really do..."the journey" is indeed a big part of what makes it all so great. But sometimes the detail is too much, if the stuff is boring...Tyrion and Penny, Dany with all the Meereeneese assholes, Jon's chapters in parts...

And I also echo the sentiment that the characters we were waiting so long for (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) really made up the weakest parts of the book, generally speaking. I liked Jon's stuff the most out of the three, and I didn't hate them or think they were dreadfully boring or anything, but the other stuff was better and more eventful (Theon in particular)...I kind of started to hate Dany, stop dreaming about Daario's dick and do something cool.

I really think the book would have been greatly improved by just adding in a couple more things...the whole Meereen thing didn't necessarily have to be resolved fully, but I'd like Victarion to have gotten there at least, and definitely the Winterfell battle.

The plus side is that this all sets up tWoW to be really action packed. I know GRRM likes to start up the books slowly and then build things in intensity (even aSoS had a lot of traveling here and there in the first half), but I hope that since everything is seemingly at such a fever pitch, he'll just go balls to the wall for the whole damn book next time. We shall see.

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I'd say Hibberd and Poniewozik, and in truth most of the other professional critics place it -- either explicitly or implicitly -- in the middle of their ranking of the books (which is where I put it, for that matter).

Lev Grossman was probably the most effusive. Andrew Leonard noted he was greatly disappointed with AFfC but really enjoyed this one, and he's another genuine fan of the series who's been following it for some years.

I don't think any of these write dishonestly. Instead, they write their genuine opinion. There are people on this forum who feel ADwD is the best book in the series, so why can't Grossman feel the same? What if its strengths are, to his mind, so very strong that everything else pales? There's nothing wrong with this.

I hate the idea that there has to be some sort of conspiracy, or if it all has to do with just getting books early. These are professionals, I've read them all pan books and TV shows and such before. Early access probably begins to pale when you get scores of books shoved your way on a monthly basis.

I certainly don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but I do think that with the books being more popular than ever, with Martin being a well-regarded author, with the anticipation being so high, I do think some of the critics are more inclined to focus heavily on the positive and gloss over the negative.

When a critic says something like:

In 2005 I wrote a review of George R.R. Martin's novel A Feast for Crows in which I called him "the American Tolkien." The phrase has stuck to him, as it was meant to. I believed Martin was our age's and our country's answer to the master of epic fantasy. Now it's six years later, and I've read Martin's new novel, A Dance with Dragons, and I'm happy to report that I was totally right.

You would have a hard time convincing me that what he's said before doesn't have an impact on what he's going to say now, especially if he feels invested in how the book is viewed to the point that saying Martin wrote a bad book would prove him 'wrong', and saying he wrote a great one proves him 'right'.

I don't think the book was bad, I'd probably give it something like a 7/10. It was bloated, in desperate need of some firm editing, and it lacked a real climax.

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Ya, here's my dream Chapter 1 of the next book:

"Hey Khal Jhaqo. Long time no see."

"Hey Khaleesi. I've decided to join you in order to give you more soldiers and then never speak again."

"Good. Let's go back to Mereen."

<a paragraph about riding without talking follows>

"Wow. What happened here?"

"Hey there. My name's Tyrion and this is my friend Victarion. He just smashed the slavers' fleet and I got all the sellswords to kill the besieging army and join up with your guys. Unfortunately, your dragons accidentally burned down the city so we can't stay here anymore"

"Well shit. What do I do now?"

"We have a big fleet and your nephew's alive and he just started a war in Westeros. Why don't we go there?"

"That's a long way. How are we going to feed all my soldiers on the trip?"

"Hi there, I'm with the Lamb People. We just showed up with all that food you ordered."

"Ha! Who says I didn't do one thing right? Load it up and let's go"

This would be amazing, but you know that in Chapter 2 they would end up shipwrecked, or the fleet would be scattered, or Dany would decide that a trip to Asshai isn't such a bad idea.

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Ya, here's my dream Chapter 1 of the next book:

"Hey Khal Jhaqo. Long time no see."

"Hey Khaleesi. I've decided to join you in order to give you more soldiers and then never speak again."

"Good. Let's go back to Mereen."

<a paragraph about riding without talking follows>

"Wow. What happened here?"

"Hey there. My name's Tyrion and this is my friend Victarion. He just smashed the slavers' fleet and I got all the sellswords to kill the besieging army and join up with your guys. Unfortunately, your dragons accidentally burned down the city so we can't stay here anymore"

"Well shit. What do I do now?"

"We have a big fleet and your nephew's alive and he just started a war in Westeros. Why don't we go there?"

"That's a long way. How are we going to feed all my soldiers on the trip?"

"Hi there, I'm with the Lamb People. We just showed up with all that food you ordered."

"Ha! Who says I didn't do one thing right? Load it up and let's go"

I love it.

However, most of us hoped this chapter to be somewhere in the first half of A Dance with Dragons.

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I certainly don't think there's any kind of conspiracy, but I do think that with the books being more popular than ever, with Martin being a well-regarded author, with the anticipation being so high, I do think some of the critics are more inclined to focus heavily on the positive and gloss over the negative.

Now this wouldn't make them very critical, now would it. Too many yes men, and too much incentive (author access mayhaps) to get along. Bit disappointing really, especially from some of the reviewers who post here.

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