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ShockWaveSix

[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

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I really loved the book, other than the ending (or lack therof). If we would've gotten a satisfying resolution to the Meereen War and the Stannis/Bolton War, it would have been an amazing book. Unfortunately we didn't and the story feels cut short. Still excellent but it really did need another 200 pages, it feels like we got everything but the climax. And I can handle the Jon cliffhanger, but I thought we should have resolutions to the other story points, especially the wars.

Great book, but unsatisfying because the climax of the stories wasn't included.

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I really loved the book, other than the ending (or lack therof). If we would've gotten a satisfying resolution to the Meereen War and the Stannis/Bolton War, it would have been an amazing book. Unfortunately we didn't and the story feels cut short. Still excellent but it really did need another 200 pages, it feels like we got everything but the climax. And I can handle the Jon cliffhanger, but I thought we should have resolutions to the other story points, especially the wars.

Great book, but unsatisfying because the climax of the stories wasn't included.

That pretty much sums up my feelings upon completion of the novel. I had enjoyed it right up until I saw the word "epilogue", at which point my reaction was "Wait, thats it!? Wheres the resolution to the Stannis v Bolton fight? Does this mean we have yet another book of bloody Meereen to go? Aw, man"

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Re: FLoW

I don't think he'll be a POV either, but isn't some of LF's knowledge getting superceded by events? Okay, so it was LF who poisoned Joffrey. But how does it hurt the reader to know that?

He's a weaselly snake plotting for the crown, but at some level, I can't imagine he has that many secrets remaining that would be true spoilers for readers.

Still, if all of LF's POV are revelations that don't matter much any more, then would it be an interesting POV to add? Perhaps. But it might also seem too much like the old detective stories endings, wouldn't you think? I think Martin had also said before that Varys and LF POVs will ruin too many plots and so we'll never seen those POVs.

Re: Layne

I don't hate Sansa. She's just not relevant to the narrative anymore. She, like the Greyjoys, needed to be a "Hey, did you hear that happened?" moment when Baelish shows back up with her in a later novel. Wading through pages and pages of material that isn't relevant to the greater story just for one final "Oh, guess what, I'm going to use you to claim Winterfell by marrying you to somebody!"

I'm amused when I read complaints concerning the so-called "greater story."

Wow, I totally didn't think Littlefinger had a master plan when he stole away with Sansa. And it has to do with Winterfell? Oh wait, you mean like everyone else that has had their hands on Sansa? Or with Arya (or fake Arya)? Well, I'm certainly glad we devoted eighty pages of this book to finding that out while she sat around, griped, and played with Robert Arryn. These are all after-the-fact type events that didn't need a POV chapter series. If we don't want Littlefinger around because it would expose too many plots, then we also don't need him around to be a tertiary character in Sansa's otherwise meaningless story in Feast.

It's called character development. You know the trope where a main character becomes a badass fighter in the blink of an eye? Yeah, that's the trope Martin is trying to avoid here, I'm guessing. A pawn can take a queen in the chess game, but only if it's placed at the right place, with the right support. Littlefinger is obviously a key player in the Game of Thrones, and he will need a worthwhile adversary so that the can triumph/be defeated in a believable, and satisfying, manner. My own guess is that Sansa is being positioned right now to offer us that leverage when the time comes. Show the dagger in act1 if you want to use it in act2, so to speak.

The problem at hand being discussed was that the series has become over-bloated and over-written, and taking way, way too long to finish. If Martin could write at a better pace and was actually finishing books anywhere near "on time" or a "reasonable time", then it wouldn't be an issue and I'd again, like I said the first time, say "Over-write away!".

Taking too long to finish? According to whose schedule, anyway?

Or, in the case of you, debate in a less intelligent way, with curt and childish insults.

Insults? Disagreement, yes. Mocking, yes. Criticism, yes. But not insults. If you can't separate insults from disagreement, then the internet is probably not going to be a happy place for you.

Aren't board moderators supposed to discourage your kind of behavior, not contribute to it?

I'm not sure what my being a moderator has anything to do with anything, but gripe away.

If you want to argue against me and say that you felt Sansa's chapters could/should have stayed in a trimmed down version of Feast/Dance, be my guest. I didn't say I was automatically right, I gave a list of chapters I felt could/should be cut.

I was not aware that you were presenting arguments. What you had posted so far seemed to consist mostly of your opinions backed by your own preferences. "I like the color orange because I like bright colors" is not an argument, you know. So, no, I wasn't trying to argue with you.

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Taking too long to finish? According to whose schedule, anyway?

The Grim Reaper's.

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If we spend more than 2 chapters in bloody Mereen for the 6th book I am going to kill somebody

Ya, here's my dream Chapter 1 of the next book:

"Hey Khal Jhaqo. Long time no see."

"Hey Khaleesi. I've decided to join you in order to give you more soldiers and then never speak again."

"Good. Let's go back to Mereen."

<a paragraph about riding without talking follows>

"Wow. What happened here?"

"Hey there. My name's Tyrion and this is my friend Victarion. He just smashed the slavers' fleet and I got all the sellswords to kill the besieging army and join up with your guys. Unfortunately, your dragons accidentally burned down the city so we can't stay here anymore"

"Well shit. What do I do now?"

"We have a big fleet and your nephew's alive and he just started a war in Westeros. Why don't we go there?"

"That's a long way. How are we going to feed all my soldiers on the trip?"

"Hi there, I'm with the Lamb People. We just showed up with all that food you ordered."

"Ha! Who says I didn't do one thing right? Load it up and let's go"

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In my nightmares at the end of 1000pages of TWOW in her 12th POV chapter Dany has finally decided that Mereen is not a very nice place and who is this dwarf trying to talk to her.

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Except for the pesky fact that Petyr will reveal too much plots. He knows, and does, too much.

I agree but Barristan also knows a lot and yet he never reveals any of it.

Does Barristan tell Dany anything significant about Rhaegar and Aerys? How come he didn't tell Dany that Aerys murdered Eddard Stark's brother and father when she said that Eddard died a "traitor's death."

Barristan brought up Summerhall as if he knows something about it but the reader still knows next to nothing about it. We were in Barristan's head and we learned almost nothing about Summerhall.

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The biggest disappointment I had was with Dany's storyline. Not because the plot advanced at a crawl - and really, without knowing the whole story, we can't outright dismiss Meereen as a filler location for Dany. Perhaps the plot moved forward more than we know right now. No, I disliked it because, despite its length, Dany had very little in the way of character interaction, especially with the people she was hyped up to meet.

She had two very short conversations with Quentyn, then he died.

She saw Tyrion from a distance, but no talking.

Victarion is still at sea.

Aegon frickin' turned around, and got to Westeros before her.

Even Ser Barristan only got in one "history of Westeros" conversation with her, about what we've seen in the previous novels. Isn't this supposed to be his big book? He became a POV character after all, and Jorah is out of the way.

Good storytelling, especially with multiple POV characters, doesn't just come from moving the plot along. Much of the joy comes from seeing different characters interact in meaningful ways, and seeing someone through new eyes.

Random sidenote: I did love how Martin handled the dragons in this book. I think we should have seen more of them, but what we did see was awesome, in the old-timey sense of "inspiring awe", and at the same time bowel-looseningly terrifying. Dany finally riding Drogon was a much-anticipated emotional high (but should have come either much earlier or much later in the book), and the descriptions of Rhaegal and Viserion in the dragonpit far exceeded my expectations for how frightening they were.

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I agree with most of the criticisms, however, I must say that even the chapters seemed to be bloated. So even though there were sparks of genius, there came a point about 300 or so pages in that I knew the first 3 or so pages of a chapter would be laborious. And once someone boarded a ship I was like "goddamn, not another fracking sea voyage!"

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Not much to say really that hasn't been said. Overall a good book but not in the league with the first three. GRRM seems to have forgotten how to combine plot development with character development and the story suffers for it, IMO. Still, I enjoyed seeing the Imp get smacked around and Theon suffering. There were some interesting insights into characters long dead that I was glad to see. Ser Barriston is now one of my favourite POV's. I was disappointed in the Dany chapters. She is one of my favourite POV's as well but this book has diminished that somewhat. Still, after her last chapter I have some hope for her in the next book. Certainly could have done with more Bran.

And I also didn't think for a minute that Jon was dead. He, like the Imp and Dany, is untouchable until the last book.

I should say it took me a lot longer to read this one than it did the rest. Even put it down for a full weekend. Perhaps the long years have slowly leeched my enthusiasm? That being said I'll still be looking forward to TWoW, but with lowered expectations.

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Doubt I'll be saying anything new, but:

(1) I found most of Dany's chapters unbelievably boring. Tons of characters that I don't care about and didn't want to invest my time in. Dany was going to be on her way to Westeros soon, right? I was okay with the first couple of chapters being about Mereen, and then the next five or six were also about Mereen. Then we had another four or so chapters not from Dany's perspective that were also about Mereen. I don't give a shit about Mereen. I don't care about Yunzai ken Yakzhuk or whatever hell their names are in Slaver's Bay (I know that's not someone's name). And by the way I skipped the last four or five Mereen chapters. The first 80% of the story there was worthless, and from reading online, it seems like I didn't miss anything interesting.

(2) Tyrion's chapters were also boring. In Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords I loved Tyrion's chapters. Everytime in Dance with Dragons I saw a Tyrion chapter I just kept hoping "maybe this one will be interesting." None of them were. A lot of traveling and talking and getting introduced to new characters I don't care about or want to care about because they were all filler characters.

(3) Why throw another contender in for the Iron Throne? Four books in we still had three left (actually on Westeros), now we have four, and with Dany it will be five (if she ever goes West, that is).

(4) Absolutley loved all of Theon's chapters. Probably my favorite story arc in all the books. Just so awesome.

(5) Davos and Bran were also great to read. Bran is kind of heavy on the magic/supernatural side, but it's a nice change of pace.

(6) Jon was meh.

(7) The Stannis plot arc has been my favorite since Clash of Kings. I'm glad to see he got a decent bit of screen time and strong progress in gaining the North. Fuck Ramsay.

I still don't beleive in Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised or any of that stuff. They're just words, and we know what Martin thinks about words.

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<Paraphrasing>

"Shall I take my fleet, my dragons and my armies back to Westeros on this nice fleet Xaro gave me?" asked Dany.

"Don't leave us!" cried Reznak!

"Who will protect us from the the Slavers" whined the Freedmen.

"How will we expand this into a twelve book series?" begged the Publisher

Remember, the Wheel of Time was supposed to be a six book series at one point. It is now going to be fourteen, and won't be finished by the original author, who died. This was better than AFFC, but my hopes for the series are considerably diminished.

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I don't see how the series can be finished in seven books unless the plot advances at break neck speed.

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I don't see how the series can be finished in seven books unless the plot advances at break neck speed.

Yes. Thank god the English Tolkein (the one with a J in front of his two Rs), did not allow himself to be this badly flummoxed by the Rivendelese Knot, or the Fellowship would never have formed, much less reached Moria.

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<Paraphrasing>

"Shall I take my fleet, my dragons and my armies back to Westeros on this nice fleet Xaro gave me?" asked Dany.

"Don't leave us!" cried Reznak!

"Who will protect us from the the Slavers" whined the Freedmen.

"How will we expand this into a twelve book series?" begged the Publisher

Remember, the Wheel of Time was supposed to be a six book series at one point. It is now going to be fourteen, and won't be finished by the original author, who died. This was better than AFFC, but my hopes for the series are considerably diminished.

LOL

Yes. Thank god the English Tolkein (the one with a J in front of his two Rs), did not allow himself to be this badly flummoxed by the Rivendelese Knot, or the Fellowship would never have formed, much less reached Moria.

And LOL

I can't stop laughing.

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Yeah I was also getting tired of her calling Ned a traitor and wondering WTF Selmy was going to tell her..."well he did murder his father and brother, not the thing to do if you want to inspire loyalty in your people". Selmy didn't get any history lessons in his chapters because the dumb kid flew off on her dragon.

Also how long does it take the guards to carry Ned's corpse to Winterfell from Riverrun...GD. Victarion sailed like 3,000 miles in half a book. Is some fat ass Manderly carrying it up there?

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Also how long does it take the guards to carry Ned's corpse to Winterfell from Riverrun...GD. Victarion sailed like 3,000 miles in half a book. Is some fat ass Manderly carrying it up there?

Obviously the Silent Sisters are having a travelogue for themselves. Maybe visiting a quaint village surrounded by hanging men. Maybe a ruin of some far gone era. Perhaps a rundown inn with a busty innkeep. Possibly heading to a nearby port and taking a small voyage on the Meanderer. Then visiting some foreign temple in Lys before taking the Sweet Ass Time to some barren rock off the Eastern Shore. Then visiting the Sept at Riveru...

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I generally liked the book - I thought it was better than aFfC but not better than the first three, mainly because of what everyone has been saying on here, a lot of great buildup but then not much of a climax.

Probably the biggest disappointment for me was the lack of resolution with the Stannis vs. Bolton war...I was so geared up for that and it just never happened.

I really liked the stuff with Aegon (I hope he's real but am not sure), and I wish there had been more - that was one of the biggest developments in the book and I think it kind of got underplayed.

Some people were kinda pointless, and there was a little too much of people traveling. I know GRRM is giving texture to the world, and I appreciate that, I really do..."the journey" is indeed a big part of what makes it all so great. But sometimes the detail is too much, if the stuff is boring...Tyrion and Penny, Dany with all the Meereeneese assholes, Jon's chapters in parts...

And I also echo the sentiment that the characters we were waiting so long for (Jon, Tyrion, Dany) really made up the weakest parts of the book, generally speaking. I liked Jon's stuff the most out of the three, and I didn't hate them or think they were dreadfully boring or anything, but the other stuff was better and more eventful (Theon in particular)...I kind of started to hate Dany, stop dreaming about Daario's dick and do something cool.

I really think the book would have been greatly improved by just adding in a couple more things...the whole Meereen thing didn't necessarily have to be resolved fully, but I'd like Victarion to have gotten there at least, and definitely the Winterfell battle.

The plus side is that this all sets up tWoW to be really action packed. I know GRRM likes to start up the books slowly and then build things in intensity (even aSoS had a lot of traveling here and there in the first half), but I hope that since everything is seemingly at such a fever pitch, he'll just go balls to the wall for the whole damn book next time. We shall see.

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