[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Goral]

Or the obvious pattern could be that those people who have waited around for 11 years have mastered patience and don't get all butthurt when a story doesn't fulfill their instant gratitude fanwank expectations. (...)

Blaine - Joined: 07-November 05

No comment necessary.

[Raksha the Demon]

I feel like I spent almost the entirety of the book waiting for people to reach certain destinations. At the beginning of their chapters I'd check their progress on the maps, and be consistently disappointed. "One more centimeter, oh good..." For some reason I dislike reading about almost anything that takes place in Mereen or elsewhere on the eastern continent. I'm not invested in the eastern continent, and couldn't care less if it was utterly destroyed. The only redeeming chapters from the eastern continent were the ones from Barristan Selmy's POV, though I wish he had chosen to support King Stannis instead of Dany.

I primarily enjoyed the chapters that took place in northern Westeros, and especially the POVs of Davos Seaworth, Jon Snow, and Theon Greyjoy (well, I dislike Theon himself immensely, but love that he's at the center of the events that I care the most about).

GRRM really loves shitting on Eddard Stark. In addition to being betrayed, wasting away diseased in a cell, having to lie and renounce his honor, being publicly humiliated, being executed for crimes he did not commit, having his family sword melted down, having his family home ruined, having his family broken apart and partly killed, we've learned that his remains will likely be fed to Lady Glover's dogs. That's nice. :frown5:

I really didn't think that GRRM had to add the lady's intention to dishonor Ned's remains; it was just pointless twisting of the knife. Unless, two reasons - 1. GRRM is trying to drive home, again, his thesis that nice guys finish last, the futility of being an honorable person; 2. GRRM is hinging a plot point, possibly a minor one, or Lady Dustbin's intention to seize and scatter Ned's bones.

Now you've got me fantasizing about Davos and Barristan on the same side, sharing experiences, maybe a beer or too, mutual respect, getting drunk together and singing sea chantys, if Barristan had gone to Stannis instead of Dany, LOL. I did enjoy Barristan's viewpoint in the Mereen chapters, but until Dany uses him to get some serious perspective on Aerys and Robert's Rebellion, Barristan is not being used to his full potential as a character and as Dany's advisor.

[evanesco75]

GRRM really loves shitting on Eddard Stark. In addition to being betrayed, wasting away diseased in a cell, having to lie and renounce his honor, being publicly humiliated, being executed for crimes he did not commit, having his family sword melted down, having his family home ruined, having his family broken apart and partly killed, we've learned that his remains will likely be fed to Lady Glover's dogs. That's nice. :frown5:

Couldn't disagree more. The unwavering loyalty for Ned, years after his death is more eloquent than a hundred monologues by 1 disgruntled Barbrey. 'Ned's girl.' What a powerful, eloquent declaration of his worth that was! For me, the very fact that people were willing to fight for Ned Stark's kin demonstrated how, when a decent person dies, he isn't forgotten. YMMV, but that's what I got.

[buku.banzai]

And so, we, the so-called long-time fans, love the series like we love our family members - we love them not because they're perfect, but because they're family. We cheer when they succeed and achieve accolades, and we commiserate and encourage when they falter. And that's the difference. We can find weaknesses in the book without condemning the entire series. More importantly, we can see where the chapters or paragraphs lack brilliance, while still keeping in mind that there are plenty of brilliant paragraphs and chapters in the same book. It's what I'd call a balanced view. This hair-pulling and chest-thumping about how god awful bad this book is just comes across as shallow and overly dramatic.

DWD is bad, though. Really bad.

So what's the point in pretending it isn't? I'm a pretty long time fan myself, jumped in before AFFC came out, and I was totally dismayed by how much of a big, badly written nothing the latest installment was.

[Uther Doul]

I've had 2 days to think about aDWD

The peripheral characters - Theon, Victarion, Bran, Arya, Davos, Selmy, Cersei's chapters, the epilogue - were superbly done. Theon's chatpers were as good as anything in a storm of swords. His last line to Asha had me punching the air. Things are moving. The political strife in the north, and the coming doom of the Bolton and Freys (for it must happen) was amazing.

But. There is a but. I think that Dany, Jon and Tyrion's chapters could have been slimmed by half and no one would have noticed. A lot of fat.

ADWD is still brilliant though. It pulled me into its world effortlessly. Martin can worldbuild like no other. It's been 9 years since I picked up Game... and 5 years since I've read them all through and instantly I was back in Westeros. And I think Book 6 will be something special. But I really really don't like Mereen.

[Blaine]

Blaine - Joined: 07-November 05

No comment necessary.

And your point is what, exactly? If you can't find anyone who has been around for awhile that didn't like the book or anyone who's brand-new and loved, then you're not trying very hard.

But if pointing out the rather obvious fact that I've been here from the beginning makes you feel like more of a rebel, then go for it.

Truth is, I loved the good parts of the book, disliked quite a bit. But if you run around assuming that everyone here who found the board before you did is clearly biased, you're missing the fact that your own position is more even more biased.

[samiam3]

I honestly believe that if this series took 50 years to finish but all 7 or 8 novels and all Dunk and Egg novellas were complete..... I would read them like a crack addict in less than a month and have no complaints whatsoever.

What bothers me is that unlike the first 3 books.... the last 2 have ended with too many cliff hangers without a satisfying stopping point. AGOT, ACOK, ASOS all left me craving more but I was content to wait for next book because they felt like complete stories. Books 4 and 5 have also lacked a plot with great forward momentum that was hallmark of first 3. Aside from the Bran chapters and the unleashing of the dragons at the end there are very few "wow" moments in this book.

I guess AFFC/ADWD have left me feeling incomplete much the way Empire STrikes Back did. However, if Book 6 were on my table waiting for me to read I would probably be unshowered right now, my dogs would be starving, house would be a mess and I would not wasting my time on this forum.

[Noroldis]

I guess AFFC/ADWD have left me feeling incomplete much the way Empire STrikes Back did. However, if Book 6 were on my table waiting for me to read I would probably be unshowered right now, my dogs would be starving, house would be a mess and I would not wasting my time on this forum.

Empire Strikes Back was more a more complete work than ADwD. It had an exciting climax, Luke's duel with Vader in Cloud City, and a satisfying resolution to that climax. Now, if ESB had ended with Han and Leia deciding they're going to travel to Bespin, followed immediately by the movie's end, I would agree that this is an apt analogy.

[The Stranger]

7 Stages of Grief.

I think I'm towards the end of stage 4. I was shocked by the lack of completeness, then I felt agony that I'll have to wait again, then I was [if you couldn't tell] furious with GRRM, then I was simply depressed, since I'm in the camp of people who don't think the series is ever going to be completed.

now, I'm rebranding the series in my own head so that it still has worth: ASOIAF is a fully functioning bad-ass medieval intrigue trilogy with a backdrop of Lovecraftian eldritch horror--a backdrop made all the more terrifying because we never get a definitive explanation of what drives these inhuman forces. or some day we actually do, and I huffing all of this paint thinner to kill the pain.

so it's an annoying state of affairs right now, but I'll live.

[Gagarin]

To that mind, detail is necessary, showing not telling is necessary, and nothing is gratuitous.

Unfortunately, the pacing issues in this book come from him telling us details, instead of showing them.

When we get a list of food about what they broke their fast on, that's telling.

When Manderly serves up the pie himself, that's showing.

We were shown Dany's lust and obsession for her sellsword. But then we were also told about it - many, many, more times.

We were told about the violence in Meereen, again and again, but not shown it. Dany could have been endangered while on the streets, or there could have been a one-off POV character who dies on the streets. Maybe a POV through Missandei to show how bad it is and how Dany struggles. That's showing.

Martin DOES show a lot of detail, but he also just tells us things, too. I'm convinced Dany didn't need all the space she was given, nor did Jon Snow.

I didn't really expect to see Dany fly to Westeros or kick ass, or expect to see The Others fly over the wall, etc. My expectations haven't really been built up that way, nor have I been speculating about Jon Snow's parentage for years ----I just saw the HBO series and then read the books over a month---but my opinion is that the last two novels have been pretty crippled.

If Martin said he expected to go 5 years in the future, and then realized he'd have to do a ton of flashbacks, so instead went about writing the setup - if that's the story indeed - then I think he's failed. Because the setup still isn't done - there wasn't a climax in the book at all, creating a new satus-quo, just cliffhangers. And I'm not sure if any of the things done in this book WOULND'T have been best left to flashbacks. Nightmares, perhaps, that's showing.

I'm not a multimillionaire nor have I written a novel, much less multiple best selling ones, but the last two were weaker, and I was disappointed that this novel doesn't have a Blackwater or a Red Wedding, or the sacking of the slaver cities. It's all setting up of tension but then ignoring it.

Towelie - the real story is that the boys just want to play GameSphere, but this huge epic thing unfolds around them. "I don't care." - http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s05e08-towelie .

I think many fans want Dany to make it to Westeros, to ride her dragons, and burn the whole lot of them - but instead we got Greyjoys, swollen Dornishman, girls missing ears, people breaking their fast, Arya killing or learing how to put on socks blind, Manderly plotting but not really putting the trigger (He JUST made a pie?).... and all that's good, as long as SOMETHING happens, too. Otherwise it's encyclopedia or an oral history of Westeros.

This book needed something to happen at the end.

I enjoyed Ramsay's letter. It reminds me of AVGN's spoof on Friday The 13's NES end screen. "You and your friends are all dead".

http://cinemassacre.com/AVGN/other/Game-Over/Game-Over.jpg

BUT... that should have setup some tension, a payoff! But no! I'm fine killing Jon, but don't end it there. Show Bolton attacking the wall. Just as The Others come. Something. An ending!

If he skips 5 years with the way he ended this book, he's still going to have to show things through flashback or be stuck TELLING us things. We're no closer to undoing the Meereenese Knot.

[Shinstar Dragon]

I'll admit that I was somewhat disappointed at the end of the book. I enjoyed it, which is why it always takes me only a few days to read it. I just can't stop.

However, the book could have infinitely been made better by a few things:

-Tyrion meets Dany and hijinks ensue

-Dany at least chooses to move on to Westeros

The way I see it now. The only way he can do it in two more books is that Dany MUST land in Westeros by the end of the next book. Otherwise, no way does that happen. The problem I see for Martin is that he will likely spend half of the next book resolving the Mereen events. At least half.

Again, Dany MUST land in Westeros in Winds of Winter. Could happen in an epilogue. That would work.

[Dragons Dancing]

After reviewing the Amazon review titles, I can see where George wants to call them trolls, but these reviewers wrote long thoughtful reviews and that is not what trolls typically do. Most wanted to like the book and the most common review title was "Disappointed". As of today the book has a 3 star rating. It was interesting because the first 22 pages were overwhelmingly negative but the last 7 pages were mostly titled "Great" with smaller reviews. I'm wondering if these Great reviews are the trollers. Here is a sampling of the Titles, too funny and sad too.

These dragons don't dance, they stumble

Fifty (or five hundred) Characters In Search Of An Exit

A few juicy moments drowned in gruel

Like direwolves, plot advancement has not been seen for 200 years

A Dance with Disappointment

A Song of Waiting and Waiting

Not a Storm, not a Feast, but a slow Waltz of a Dance

A Dance with Dullness

More like 3.5 but given the chocie I would have to round down

Okay now I'm concerned

Editors Should Have Taken an Arakh to this Book...

Mixed feelings, mostly tedium

I think I can let go now...

All Build Up and No Release

Somebody call an editor...

Well, at least the wait is over.

If You're Into Diarrhea, This is the Book for You

I waited for this?

The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come and pass.

Occasionally stunning, mostly dissatisfying

AFFC part II = Lots of movement with no progress

A cure for insomnia has been found!

A Trip to the Great Meereenese Cul-de-Sac

GRRM - Does he know how to end a storyline?

Better than AFFC... but that's not setting the bar too high, now is it?

A bigger knot than anyone ever wanted

I don't think I care any more about these characters...

Trainwreck in slow motion

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, But Mostly The Ugly

Paid by the word?

Martin's Big Middle Finger To His Fans

Long and unbearably painful

Reek, Reek it rhymes with bleak!

Need less description of urination, less "you know nothing, Jon Snow"

This train has come off the tracks!

Hey Sanderson, you busy? We've got another project for you!

Like Watching Grass Grow...On Quaaludes

Who wrote this?

Wheel of Killing Time

Killing off all of the characters I care about, the maybe magically reviving them.

Perhaps the calm before the storm?

Magical Roadtrip

This one is going back to the bookstore

[Jutah the Juggler]

...and with that, George R.R. Martin's transition into Robert Jordan is complete.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

A Dance of Dullness? I didn’t think Dance was dull. Well I don’t care what these people say. I enjoyed Dance as much as I enjoyed the rest. My only concern is that GRRM pops his clogs on us and the books are never finished.

[Morvius]

I wouldn't say that GRRM is at Robert Jordan's level yet. I could not even bear to read Robert Jordan's first book in the Wheel of Time series.

But A Dance With Dragon could have been trimmed a lot. Too much pointless world building. Yes, it can make the world more colorful but if its excessive, it's just painful to read. Also, Tyrion's chapters... Daenerys chapters could have been trimmed too. Trimmed a lot in fact. There was no reason for ADWD to be a 1000 pages long. At least from what I read. The first three books in the series achieved so much with a lower page count.

The other books still have the potential to be really great though. The brilliance of certain parts of the book shows that GRRM hasn't lost it. He just needs focus...and an editor with a chainsaw. And hopefully he really does end the series within the next 2 books. That would force him to cut out as much filler as possible. It's rather unfortunate though. This series could have been really spectacular but it will be marred by this book simply because GRRM suddenly indulged in purple prose.

[Dragons Dancing]

It had it's moments and some damn good writing in some sub plots but for me Dany and Tyrion were just dreary to read for the most part. I wanted to see some resolutions but guess I will have to wait for the finale for them.

[King Stannis I]

So maybe if there is a thread about this already, but I would say that after GRRM took five+ to write A Dance with Dragons and you told me it would have would have:

Dany still in Essos

No resolution of Jamie / Brienne

Stannis snowed in outside of Winterfell

Tyrion not meeting Dany

Bran turning into a tree

a long, boring war on Slaver's Bay

nothing about what the Maesters are up to

Victarion not in Mereen yet

dragons locked under a pyramid for most of the book

dead Jon

and no OTHERS AT ALL

I would have waited for the paperback.

My grade D+ for story, A- for writing style (I think this is where Mr. Martin spent most of his time -- trying to be Mr. Writer instead of Mr. Storyteller)

Overall C-, slightly better than AFfC, but still way behind the first three.

[King Stannis I]

Double post

[Rindill]

Theon was never dead. We are explicitly told this by Roose Bolton who gives a flayed finger to King Robb and Catelyn a chapter before the Red Wedding in ASoS. Robb orders Roose Bolton to keep him captive at the Dreadfort. You must not have been paying attention. :)

Aegon was prophesied in ACoK, A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Quaithe as well mentions the mummer's dragon.

Aegon is a fake; he's not real. He was Varys' and Illyrio's Plan B after Viserys got himself crowned.

As for Jon, there are clues strewn all over ADwD that he's not dead, that he's AA and that Jon's death is a part of the prophecy. Read the death scene (et tu Bowen) again. His wound is described as "smoking". Bowen March is weeping tears (salt) and above them, Wun Wun is bashing Ser Patrek's bloody corpse against the wall with a shield strapped to his arm (heraldric device: five pointed star - the bleeding star).

You need to read a little deeper, but I appreciate that Jon's death pissed a lot of people off initially. We are mostly all quite certain it isn't perma-death, given that Varamyr shows us in the Prologue that a warg transmigrates to their wolf upon death. So unlike Drogo, Jon's spirit is present to be rejoined to his body should it be healed/raised a la Drogo.

Thank you. You summed it up quite well.

A few things I want to add.

Jon's mother may have been Ashara Dayne.

Ashara Dayne had purple eyes (a sign of dragon blood).

In Jon the North (and first men) are joined with the Dragon. Ice and Fire.

The prophecy by the Maegi from the west said that the union would produce the prince that was promised.

Rhaegar married Elia, and so stole away with Lyanna, causing Roberts rebellion and setting up Ned and Ashara.

There is a lot there. But the stone dragons are still Daenerys.

However, there are "three heads" to the dragon.

Deanerys, Jon, and who else?

[Rindill]

The main complaint everyone seems to have is THE BOOK WAS TOO SHORT!

I feel the same way.

It's obvious now why GRRM wanted to skip all of the material he put into AFFC+ADWD.

For everyone saying it's boring or going nowhere, YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE!

There is SO MUCH happening. Almost TOO MUCH. The book needs to be twice as long. The problem isn't with what's there, but with what's not there. The NEXT BOOK!

That's why I've decided to wait till the entire series is finished before I read anymore of it.

I became a fan a few years ago when I read all the first four books back to back in the space of a few weeks.

I understand now how together they make an awesome story, but one at a time they don't bring much to the table.