[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Nihilist]

The main complaint everyone seems to have is THE BOOK WAS TOO SHORT!

I feel the same way.

It's obvious now why GRRM wanted to skip all of the material he put into AFFC+ADWD.

For everyone saying it's boring or going nowhere, YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE!

There is SO MUCH happening. Almost TOO MUCH. The book needs to be twice as long. The problem isn't with what's there, but with what's not there. The NEXT BOOK!

That's why I've decided to wait till the entire series is finished before I read anymore of it.

I became a fan a few years ago when I read all the first four books back to back in the space of a few weeks.

I understand now how together they make an awesome story, but one at a time they don't bring much to the table.

I'm sorry but anyone implying that people who read this series don't have patience is a fool.

[Puck6275]

The main complaint everyone seems to have is THE BOOK WAS TOO SHORT!

I feel the same way.

It's obvious now why GRRM wanted to skip all of the material he put into AFFC+ADWD.

For everyone saying it's boring or going nowhere, YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE!

There is SO MUCH happening. Almost TOO MUCH. The book needs to be twice as long. The problem isn't with what's there, but with what's not there. The NEXT BOOK!

That's why I've decided to wait till the entire series is finished before I read anymore of it.

I became a fan a few years ago when I read all the first four books back to back in the space of a few weeks.

I understand now how together they make an awesome story, but one at a time they don't bring much to the table.

*waits for seven years*

*Has no patience*

[Rindill]

I'm sorry but anyone implying that people who read this series don't have patience is a fool.

Your right. My mistake. You need MORE PATIENCE! Realistically, more patience than should be expected of us. I'm waiting till the series is finished to read anymore.

[Raging Bear]

How could anyone how read AFFC think that ADWD would advance the plot significantly? It's a companion novel for crying out loud.

A five year gap with flashbacks doesn't work a possible plot structure if there are major plot advancements to include.

AFFC and ADWD cover the transition between Act 1 (ACOF, ASOS) and Act 2 (TWOW, ADOS).

I can see why it took Martin so long to write these books after he scrapped the five year gap: he had to come up with things for everybody to do that followed a narrative structure while setting up for Act 2.

So don't bash the book for not being something it was never trying to be.

Be happy that the next book won't take as long, he been already has it planned out.

[Gareds Head]

Three things really disappointed me about the book.

1. The holding pattern feel to Mereen

2. "much and more" ... I hate that phrase. I don't recall it jumping up and biting me in the previous books. In fact I don't recall it in the previous books at all but in ADwD it appears all the time. It's become the new phrase all the cool kids are using. It became so prevalent that it would take me out of the story everytime I came upon it.

3. The cliffhangers just got too much. I'd have liked a little more resolution.

Still I enjoyed it. Bran and Theon I couldn't wait to get back to.

[King Stannis I]

The Two Towers moved the plot along and disposed of a major antagonist

The Empire Strikes Back moved the plot along.. with big reveals

Each Harry Potter book between 1 and 7 accomplished something in developing the overarching conflict plot and upping the stakes

AFfC and ADwD are slowing the story down to a glacial pace...

[Morvius]

The main complaint everyone seems to have is THE BOOK WAS TOO SHORT!

I feel the same way.

It's obvious now why GRRM wanted to skip all of the material he put into AFFC+ADWD.

For everyone saying it's boring or going nowhere, YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE!

There is SO MUCH happening. Almost TOO MUCH. The book needs to be twice as long. The problem isn't with what's there, but with what's not there. The NEXT BOOK!

That's why I've decided to wait till the entire series is finished before I read anymore of it.

I became a fan a few years ago when I read all the first four books back to back in the space of a few weeks.

I understand now how together they make an awesome story, but one at a time they don't bring much to the table.

I felt that he could have written more if not for the excessive amounts of description and unnecessary information. World building is nice yes. But not when it is excessive. That said, I wasn't exactly disappointed with the book. Just peeved that I would have to wait ages for the next one. And like some people said, GRRM doesn't seem as dedicated to finishing this series as other authors appear to be. He has so many other commitments and other book projects.

[Raksha the Demon]

I wonder if GRRM is just tired of trying to finish a hugely complex story with too many viewpoint characters; it would be a titanic endeavor, particularly when there are attractive short projects awaiting his attention...

[Autumn Wind]

All that sea travel and not a kraken in sight :tantrum:

[Scott553]

I felt the biggest disappointment was Daenerys. She seemed out of character and some of her decisions made her unlikeable (imo). Further, the storyline in Mereen wasn't compelling.

Twice in the books, Dany was lying in bed wishing there was some way to avoid the dawn and hardships the day would bring. When her soldiers and Unsullied were being assassinated in the streets of Mereen, she accepted a marriage of political convenience. She surrendered to temptation with Daario Naharis when she had previously refused Jorah Mormont on the grounds that Jorah lacked a proper background. She was weak in ADWD where previously she had been one of the strongest characters who acted with conviction and determination (a "dragon").

She was also difficult to relate to in ADWD, bordering on unlikeable. Her relationship with Daario was written in a way that painted her as a whore. I don't have a problem with a character having sex for the sake of passion or release... maybe I'm getting old but she came across more like the kind of girl who gives it up in the parking lot of a bowling alley rather than a queen. Also, chaining her dragons wasn't just a mistake, it was plainly stupid for multiple reasons she was aware of (stunting their growth, disarming herself of her strongest weapons, taking the visual symbol of who she is and what she represents and hiding it from her enemies). Prior to ADWD, I found Daenerys chapters to be really enjoyable but more often than not, I was rolling my eyes when one came about in this book.

I never found myself caring for Mereen or it's inhabitants. There were plenty of reasons to dislike Mereen with it's former slave-owners, corruption, backstabbing ways, and mistrust of it's liberator. In contrast, there was little done to show the city was redeemable or worth all the effort. By the time Daenerys was wandering the sea of grass trying to figure herself out, I didn't care about Mereen or her.

I think the book's biggest failing is the lack of action on her part at the end. For all the build up of her mistakes, her weaknesses, and her loss of direction, she had supposedly accepted her true purpose at the end. It fizzled in my opinion and I think a bit more action would have gone a long way there.

[Solmyr]

I spilled my bile of critique a couple of pages back, but seeing how much GRRM bashing is taking place, I'd rather turn my cloak now.

Dragons Dancing, you point out how so many of the Amazon reviews carry a 'disappointed' motif. This is to be expected, given human's nature to bitch about things they don't like (especially if they have paid money and spent a good deal of time waiting for and reading the book). On the contrary most people who enjoyed the book are more likely to be through their second/third re-read instead of roaming the internet and waving pitchforks at the author.

Everyone who claims that GRRM is turning into Robert Jordan:

1. RJ is an awesome author, father of one of the greatest fantasy series of our time.

2. Most of you have certainly read WoT, enjoyed it and are eagerly awaiting AMoL.

3. The biggest critique against RJ is that he spent too long writing about political maneuverings in books 7-10. Well political maneuverings are the bread and butter of asoiaf. In that regard GRRM couldn't turn into RJ, he has already far surpassed him.

All the trolls and haters who are complaining about how long the book was and how little plot advancement it provided in return:

One day, hopefully (fingers crossed), the series will end. The story will be told, there will be no more books on the horizon, no more speculation about plot development on boards like this one. Would you be happy then? If you're so impatient to see how the story ends, would you agree to be told in a face-to-face chat with GRRM (given it was possible and you wouldn't spoil it for everyone)? Myself, I'd rather the series go on forever, impossible as it is. As long as a book is delivered now and then to keep us supplied with new clues to discuss. The best thing about a series in progress is that you can discuss and imagine all kinds of possible developments, far beyond what any single mind can conjure. And enjoy the prospect of each and every one.

[Rindill]

I felt the biggest disappointment was Daenerys. She seemed out of character and some of her decisions made her unlikeable (imo). Further, the storyline in Mereen wasn't compelling.

Twice in the books, Dany was lying in bed wishing there was some way to avoid the dawn and hardships the day would bring. When her soldiers and Unsullied were being assassinated in the streets of Mereen, she accepted a marriage of political convenience. She surrendered to temptation with Daario Naharis when she had previously refused Jorah Mormont on the grounds that Jorah lacked a proper background. She was weak in ADWD where previously she had been one of the strongest characters who acted with conviction and determination (a "dragon").

She was also difficult to relate to in ADWD, bordering on unlikeable. Her relationship with Daario was written in a way that painted her as a whore. I don't have a problem with a character having sex for the sake of passion or release... maybe I'm getting old but she came across more like the kind of girl who gives it up in the parking lot of a bowling alley rather than a queen. Also, chaining her dragons wasn't just a mistake, it was plainly stupid for multiple reasons she was aware of (stunting their growth, disarming herself of her strongest weapons, taking the visual symbol of who she is and what she represents and hiding it from her enemies). Prior to ADWD, I found Daenerys chapters to be really enjoyable but more often than not, I was rolling my eyes when one came about in this book.

I never found myself caring for Mereen or it's inhabitants. There were plenty of reasons to dislike Mereen with it's former slave-owners, corruption, backstabbing ways, and mistrust of it's liberator. In contrast, there was little done to show the city was redeemable or worth all the effort. By the time Daenerys was wandering the sea of grass trying to figure herself out, I didn't care about Mereen or her.

I think the book's biggest failing is the lack of action on her part at the end. For all the build up of her mistakes, her weaknesses, and her loss of direction, she had supposedly accepted her true purpose at the end. It fizzled in my opinion and I think a bit more action would have gone a long way there.

I agree. After her transformation on the Dothraki sea, burning the Undying, and owning Astapor and Yunkai, she fizzles out at Mereen. Even though her actions aren't "like-able", I think that's the point. She's not where she's supposed to be, but in a strange place surrounded by all these people she doesn't know, playing political games she has no knowledge of. She's trying to rule and finding out its dirty business.

In many ways her position mirrors Robert's. He was also a great conqueror and mover, but settling down to kingship turned him into a rather unlikeable character doing unlikeable things.

Daenerys "fierce dragon" phase dwindled at the same time she caged Viserys and Rhaegal... and became distraught at Drogons murder of the little girl (a coincidence?) It was a figurative representation of Dany (for the time being at least), forsaking her dragon heritage and "donning her floppy ears." We know why she did it too; she forgot about the the "Blood and Fire" part of being a dragon in favor of trying to find peace (and end all the killing). Drogon, Astapor, Yunkai, even Mereen and the Brazen beasts--Daenerys is still learning how her actions affect the world. Things get worse before they get better, and she became unwilling to take the steps necessary to follow through with what she started. Nevertheless she was trying to. Trying to do so without any bloodshed too.

As for Daario, she fell for him. She was a Kahleesi who had sex in public... taking a lover isn't anything out of character for her. (However, CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT!, perhaps Daario Naharis was putting Dany under a spell (Martin mentions those wanton sword hilts a bit too much?)) Daenerys never fell for Jorah. It was Jorah who was coming onto Daenerys, and she pushed him away. However, it was Daenerys who fell for Daario, and Daario wasn't about to push Daenerys away.

I still cared about Daenerys. In fact I did more so than I ever had before. Sometimes she plays "at being the little girl." And sometimes she's the fierce queen. But she is still both. She IS still a little girl, but she is also a dragon and a leader. She is trying to figure out both what it means and how to be a woman and a conqueror/ruler and a dragon.

[Scott553]

Daenerys "fierce dragon" phase dwindled at the same time she caged Viserys and Rhaegal... and became distraught at Drogons murder of the little girl (a coincidence?) It was a figurative representation of Dany (for the time being at least), forsaking her dragon heritage and "donning her floppy ears."

As for Daario, she fell for him. She was a Kahleesi who had sex in public... taking a lover isn't anything out of character for her. (However, CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT!, perhaps Daario Naharis was putting Dany under a spell (Martin mentions those wanton sword hilts a bit too much?)) Daenerys never fell for Jorah. It was Jorah who was coming onto Daenerys, and she pushed him away. However, it was Daenerys who fell for Daario, and Daario wasn't about to push Daenerys away.

Your points definitely make sense. The comparison to Robert is excellent, good call.

Her taking Daario as a lover was a disappointment to me and I may be unfairly justifying criticism of her character development simply because I didn't like the direction things went. I do contend that her romance with Daario was written in a way that depicted her in a poor light. Not just wanton or passionate, but pretty dirty.

I think the key factor is the lack of confident action on her part at the end. After her sharp decline into a weaker character I would have preferred some decisive action at the end of ADWD to prove she truly believed in herself again.

[Raging Bear]

It's easier to act with conviction and determination when you know the way forward. When Dany decided to stay in Meereen and "fix" the slave trade she was entering a whole new game.

I'm not surprised that she lost her "fire" when every decision she made just made the situation worse. Being a ruler doesn't mean you can make anything happen. It was a humbling experience, one that she is the wiser for.

[Mr. Lahey]

@Rindill: I think Dany's storyline goes a little deeper than a parallel to Robert's reign in which she learns that it is easier to conquer than rule. I think the big conflict for her in this book is that she recognizes the true difficulty in ruling and tries to make Meereen a petri dish for ruling Westeros without recognizing the fundamental differences between her culture and their own, ie slavery. Slavery is a time-honored custom in Meereen, not to mention the backbone of its economy. Dany nobly tries to put a stop to it, but realizes that Meereen had surprisingly little else to offer before the conquest, and less since the scorched-earth policy of the wise masters. She tries to walk a middle ground for a few hundred pages but eventually IMO comes to the conclusion that she will never be able to reconcile her vision of Meereen as it should be with the Meereen of the ruling elite. If only she had taken a page from Stalin's playbook I think we would have had a far more exciting read than what we got.

[Gagarin]

The main complaint everyone seems to have is THE BOOK WAS TOO SHORT!

I feel the same way.

It's obvious now why GRRM wanted to skip all of the material he put into AFFC+ADWD.

For everyone saying it's boring or going nowhere, YOU HAVE NO PATIENCE!

There is SO MUCH happening. Almost TOO MUCH. The book needs to be twice as long. The problem isn't with what's there, but with what's not there. The NEXT BOOK!

That's why I've decided to wait till the entire series is finished before I read anymore of it.

I became a fan a few years ago when I read all the first four books back to back in the space of a few weeks.

I understand now how together they make an awesome story, but one at a time they don't bring much to the table.

Wait, who's saying the book is too short? Saying it doesn't have a climax/resolution is not the same thing as saying it's too short. It needed 100-200 pages for the right ending, but what's 200 pages on a 1400 page (or whatever) book? It wasn't too short, it just didn't have what it needed.

There's "SO MUCH HAPPENING"? "TOO MUCH?"

What happened, exactly? People are disappointed in the lack of action/stuff happening. We're being told things, not being shown things.

[Ser Pistus]

There's "SO MUCH HAPPENING"? "TOO MUCH?"

What happened, exactly? People are disappointed in the lack of action/stuff happening. We're being told things, not being shown things.

Are you kidding me? A lot of things happened in Feast and Dance.

Cersei changed her dress thrice in every chapter and so did Dany.

Tyrion ate three different meals every chapter.

Theon found 100 different words that rhyme with Reek.

Brienne have been in dozens of villages and towns, and met.. well, I don't remember whom but they all were unforgettable.

And so on.

:D

[Cot]

I spilled my bile of critique a couple of pages back, but seeing how much GRRM bashing is taking place, I'd rather turn my cloak now.

My heads in a similar place - thought it was the worst of the series, with the fantastic first 600 pages let down by a final third which went nowhere.

HOWEVER, it is still in the top 5 fantasy books I've read in the last year or two.

[j52y]

I personally really liked the book, but I agree that I was initially disappointed by the last third.

But I think a lot of that disappointment came out of an expectation of more resolution. I assumed that the Meereenese war and the battle for Winterfell would be resolved by the end of this book, but it doesn't look like it (though, it may be more resolved than it looks. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that Stannis finds Winterfell practically abandoned and it seems that the Yunkai army is too weak to beat the Meereen army.) In many respects, this book didn't hhave the same feel of closure that A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and even A Feast for Crows did.

If you look at the character's emotional journeys, you'll see that there is closure there. These books are about identity. Theon finally found his name, Dany finally embraced the dragon within herself (again), Jon embraced his upbringing (only to get stabbed before he could do anything about it), Tyrion 9and for that matter, Jorah) found his purpose, and Barristan finally accepted his role as a player and moved towards war. And some characters got hurt when they wouldn't admit who they are. That's what Quentyn's story is about.

It's a little hard for me to criticize Martin's ending before reading The Winds of Winter (whenever that will be). It's very possible that the beginning of TWoW will completely justify where the book leaves off. Still, as it stands right now, I think the book could've used a couple more chapters, leaving us with some more resolution.

In so far as the book's slow pace, A Feast for Crows should've prepared us for that. I personally don't mind the pace, actually. And I've seen a lot of people say that Jon, Tyrion, and Dany's storylines were weak, but I respectfully disagree. I thought Jon's story was great, and I though Dany's was very good as well. There were times I grew weary of Tyrion's story, but looking back, every chapter had a purpose, and I still liked his story a lot.

So far, I rank the books: A Storm of Swords > A Clash of Kings > A Dance with Dragons > A Game of Thrones > A Feast for Crows.

[Eddison Tollet]

I spilled my bile of critique a couple of pages back, but seeing how much GRRM bashing is taking place, I'd rather turn my cloak now.

Dragons Dancing, you point out how so many of the Amazon reviews carry a 'disappointed' motif. This is to be expected, given human's nature to bitch about things they don't like (especially if they have paid money and spent a good deal of time waiting for and reading the book). On the contrary most people who enjoyed the book are more likely to be through their second/third re-read instead of roaming the internet and waving pitchforks at the author.

Everyone who claims that GRRM is turning into Robert Jordan:

1. RJ is an awesome author, father of one of the greatest fantasy series of our time.

2. Most of you have certainly read WoT, enjoyed it and are eagerly awaiting AMoL.

3. The biggest critique against RJ is that he spent too long writing about political maneuverings in books 7-10. Well political maneuverings are the bread and butter of asoiaf. In that regard GRRM couldn't turn into RJ, he has already far surpassed him.

Haven't read anything by Jordan, so I have no idea how similar they may or may not be.

All the trolls and haters who are complaining about how long the book was and how little plot advancement it provided in return:

One day, hopefully (fingers crossed), the series will end. The story will be told, there will be no more books on the horizon, no more speculation about plot development on boards like this one. Would you be happy then?

There will be plenty of more books on the horizon, more speculation about plot developments, and it will likely be on boards very similar to this one, it just won't be about this series.

I actually thought this was rhetorical for a second. Yes, I'll be happy to read the end of this series and see how everything turns out in the end.

If you're so impatient to see how the story ends, would you agree to be told in a face-to-face chat with GRRM (given it was possible and you wouldn't spoil it for everyone)?

Absolutely. I'm not one of those people that thinks spoilers actually spoil anything if the book/show/movie/whatever is well-made. Knowing how it ends would either lead to me eagerly look forward to seeing how he arrives at that conclusion or deciding that the time I've spent on this series is all that I should.

Myself, I'd rather the series go on forever, impossible as it is. As long as a book is delivered now and then to keep us supplied with new clues to discuss. The best thing about a series in progress is that you can discuss and imagine all kinds of possible developments, far beyond what any single mind can conjure. And enjoy the prospect of each and every one.

I like basketball. I like talking about who will win a game before it starts, but it doesn't make any sense to me to say that the game should never start or never end because talking about it is fun and gee won't it be sad when it's over. I want to see the game played and then I want to see the game end and know the final score and look at who won and who lost and why.