[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Goral]

(...)

I get the distinct feeling that alot of people complaining that its taking too long, would complain in the end, if it was all shortened, that there just wasnt the character development and depth to the sotry that we had in the first few books.

If it was just trimmed than probably yeah, although it still would be infinitely better than having pointless talking. I would prefer if the book would cost the same but the story was more condensed. I would also prefer to not wait 6 years for another book, rather 3 for a shorter one. Maybe then Martin would start to see how much pointless things he's throwing in and focused more on character development and story development. In DwD we didn't have much of either. Daenerys was as stupid as she was (even more stupid) and after 500 pages about her and others near her she is still in the same place (well, not quite but we will be back to Meereen anyway). And it's not that people are having problems with some threads being ended with cliffhangers but ALL threads being ended with cliffhangers. So while I wasn't expecting to receive answers to all my questions I was expecting to receive answers to at least some. In every previous book (including AFfC) more happened than here. I consider DwD better than 4th book only because there were characters I liked more (Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion). Anyway, Daenerys story really spoiled whole book for me. It was so boring I was seriously considering skimming. I didn't do it only because I was afraid that I might miss some important piece of information and was even more annoyed when it turned out there was nothing important there. Only how horny she was about Daario, how bad queen she was and how lost she was and didn't know what to do, repeated countless times using different methods and means.

[JWJ78]

I love how some are like "don't worry there are 2 books left"- you have read the last 2 books now, how much got done? and your not worried? With so many characters, plots and sub plots I don't think he can do everyone and everything justice with only 2 books left now and I really don't want to see this series turn into another WOT. If the next book isn't released soon and have more resolution, I fear it never will be or I just won't care anymore.

[Adept Havelock]

Though I'm curious about the rage over the book. Did people walk into this one expecting BIG secrets to be revealed? It's the fifth of seven, two big books to come and we're still in the setting up phase. I went into this one knowing that we would get more questions rather than answers.

The 'rage' on this book is that it pales in comparison to the other earlier novels. Simply compare the amount of character development and plot development Dany went through in GoT compared to DwD. She was introduced, married, became a happy wife, became a true leader, pregnant, went through a miscarriage and became a widow and a mother of dragons. Thats not even counting her mental development; her growing contempt for her brother, her hatred of slavery, her friendships with Mormont and other characters. In GoT not every little thing is shown, we see her wedding night and the next chapter was months later when she grew the strength and conviction to change her circumstances. We know she was practically raped every night by her Khal but there weren't several chapters written about it because nothing changed during this time. The book was tightly plotted so the next chapter moved the plot and character along as did the next chapter.

What really adds salt to the wound is that there is twice the page count of Dany in DwD compared to GoT. Isn't it strange that the most highly regarded arcs of Dance; Theon, Davos, Bran, are the ones that are still tightly plotted? On your point that the book had to be exposition, why? There were plenty of chances to give closure that were not taken by GRRM. The return to Meeren by Dany and the arrival of her many guests, the crushing of the Harpy, the military defeat of her enemies; up north a few more Theon and Asha chapters to show the battle at Winterfell. None of these were taken and we're left with an unsatisfying book where some things changed but no conclusions were reached.

On the point that this is simply sour grapes due to unreasonable expectations caused by a six year wait,the exact same thing was said about the initial reviews of FfC. However due to the long wait we have had lots of readers who read straight through books 1 to 4 and Feast is still considered a poor novel. I have no doubt that in the long wait for Winds new readers will consider Dance a weak novel also.

[Coals]

The 'rage' on this book is that it pales in comparison to the other earlier novels. Simply compare the amount of character development and plot development Dany went through in GoT compared to DwD. She was introduced, married, became a happy wife, became a true leader, pregnant, went through a miscarriage and became a widow and a mother of dragons. Thats not even counting her mental development; her growing contempt for her brother, her hatred of slavery, her friendships with Mormont and other characters. In GoT not every little thing is shown, we see her wedding night and the next chapter was months later when she grew the strength and conviction to change her circumstances. We know she was practically raped every night by her Khal but there weren't several chapters written about it because nothing changed during this time. The book was tightly plotted so the next chapter moved the plot and character along as did the next chapter.

What really adds salt to the wound is that there is twice the page count of Dany in DwD compared to GoT. Isn't it strange that the most highly regarded arcs of Dance; Theon, Davos, Bran, are the ones that are still tightly plotted? On your point that the book had to be exposition, why? There were plenty of chances to give closure that were not taken by GRRM. The return to Meeren by Dany and the arrival of her many guests, the crushing of the Harpy, the military defeat of her enemies; up north a few more Theon and Asha chapters to show the battle at Winterfell. None of these were taken and we're left with an unsatisfying book where some things changed but no conclusions were reached.

devils advocate here (I personally agree about Danys development) but remember the idea of the five year gap and the meerenesse knot? perhaps thats the point - Dany had nothing to do except realise shes a shit ruler, but the expectation of having lots of dany made her chapters sub par and alittle fleshed out? is we had only a few pages of Dany POV in a 1000pg book there'd be a whole load of pissed off people. GRRM has my benefit of the doubt on how he worked himself out of his hole until I read tWoW and see where he was going. If I have to wait another 6 years and its crap, then I will be angry as hell, but until then I suspend judgement.

[Triester]

GRRM has my benefit of the doubt on how he worked himself out of his hole until I read tWoW and see where he was going. If I have to wait another 6 years and its crap, then I will be angry as hell, but until then I suspend judgement.

But we gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2005 when Feast was released and the excuse was it was half a book. I don't think Feast was improved by reading Dance. I doubt Dance will improve when Winds hits even if it matches the quality of the initial three books.

[Goral]

(...)

On the point that this is simply sour grapes due to unreasonable expectations caused by a six year wait,the exact same thing was said about the initial reviews of FfC. However due to the long wait we have had lots of readers who read straight through books 1 to 4 and Feast is still considered a poor novel. I have no doubt that in the long wait for Winds new readers will consider Dance a weak novel also.

I'm one of such people. I've read first 4 books (for the first and last time for now) less than a month ago (started GoT when 4th episode of GoT was released) so I didn't wait more than 30 days and I'm really disappointed with the book not because I've waited long (I didn't) but because almost nothing happened. Everything is so thinned down that a summary would take like 5 pages and you would know every little detail (almost). That says something. And the worst thing is that Martin doesn't even want to acknowledge there are lots of disappointed fans. On his blog all we can read is that the book is being highly praised everywhere and that it sells so well. More negative comments are being deleted from his blog also which annoys me. And I'm not talking about ranting but pointing out some things that could be done better.

is we had only a few pages of Dany POV in a 1000pg book there'd be a whole load of pissed off people.

I never liked Dany and I'm not the only one so I seriously doubt there would be more pissed people than are now.

[Ellistrian]

Just finished the book myself. Never in my life have i had to force myself to finnish a book. I mean really, really push myself to finish a book. The only way i can see myself reading the next one is in hope that it will make the wasted time i invested in reading a DwD pay off but that seems way to big of a gamble. As my eyes bled reading a DwD i hoped to god Jon, Dany, and even Tyrion would just die so i woulndt have to read anymoe of those chapters.....

[Coals]

But we gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2005 when Feast was released and the excuse was it was half a book. I don't think Feast was improved by reading Dance. I doubt Dance will improve when Winds hits even if it matches the quality of the initial three books.

I actually liked feat on re-reading before dance, Jaime's development was good, as was reading Cersei going more and more crazy.

Its the middle of the story, there is always going to be a lul in the middle as I see it, doesnt mean that the conclusion isnt going to kick ass.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

On his blog all we can read is that the book is being highly praised everywhere and that it sells so well. More negative comments are being deleted from his blog also which annoys me. And I'm not talking about ranting but pointing out some things that could be done better.

That's common knowledge. Censorship is heavy there.

[Guy That Dies On p250]

It was better than book IV, but it's clearly still suffering from bloat; the whole Dornish Prince thread, set up at inordinate length in the last book and taking up a substantial, though smaller, chunk of this one, was a complete waste of space; the Victarion/Euron/Damphair thread advanced hardly at all; the stories of the two contingents from Oldtown en route to Meereen are still to be dealt with, thus taking up valuable space in the next book; Tyrion's been all over the map and achieved and developed less in tens of thousands of words than he did in any single chapter of books one and two; new and insignificant characters continue to be introduced at the drop of a doublet; where once characters were fearlessly despatched, they now hover at death's door while the reader waits, unconcerned, for the inevitable magical reprieve.

GRRM has already said that it 'may' take eight books rather than seven to complete the series, and it's a safe prediction that after the next book he will come to realise that it may take nine rather than eight.

That said, it was very good in parts (yay, Theon), and impressive in the way it picked up long-forgotten points and revealed them to be part of a finely-constructed mesh of plotting without resorting to cheap retconning. There is hope for the series, but he needs to start cutting it back to things that matter. Oh, and the sex scenes are getting embarrassingly porno-ish; we don't need to know everything....

[acadia]

I think Martin is getting trigger and twisty happen. I guess maybe in war that many important players die, but come on now, can you leave someone to tell the tail, I also don't like the good guy ad guy setup that GRRM is putting into the book, I really enjoyed the first book because, people were part good and bad, just like real life. I too was dissatisfied with this book, not too much happened. And Bran a tree, w..t.... Everything in life isn't some super twist, GRRM, sometimes normal stuff just happens, you know, a caracter goes to meet a queen and he/she does, etc ... it's too many plot twist, life can't be that complicated, I know the best laid plans of man are folly, but still ... sometimes you just wake up in the morning and go to work and come home. Taht simple.

[acadia]

It was better than book IV, but it's clearly still suffering from bloat; the whole Dornish Prince thread, set up at inordinate length in the last book and taking up a substantial, though smaller, chunk of this one, was a complete waste of space; the Victarion/Euron/Damphair thread advanced hardly at all; the stories of the two contingents from Oldtown en route to Meereen are still to be dealt with, thus taking up valuable space in the next book; Tyrion's been all over the map and achieved and developed less in tens of thousands of words than he did in any single chapter of books one and two; new and insignificant characters continue to be introduced at the drop of a doublet; where once characters were fearlessly despatched, they now hover at death's door while the reader waits, unconcerned, for the inevitable magical reprieve.

GRRM has already said that it 'may' take eight books rather than seven to complete the series, and it's a safe prediction that after the next book he will come to realise that it may take nine rather than eight.

That said, it was very good in parts (yay, Theon), and impressive in the way it picked up long-forgotten points and revealed them to be part of a finely-constructed mesh of plotting without resorting to cheap retconning. There is hope for the series, but he needs to start cutting it back to things that matter. Oh, and the sex scenes are getting embarrassingly porno-ish; we don't need to know everything....

You don't , but I do !!!!

[Triester]

I actually liked feat on re-reading before dance, Jaime's development was good, as was reading Cersei going more and more crazy.

Its the middle of the story, there is always going to be a lul in the middle as I see it, doesnt mean that the conclusion isnt going to kick ass.

I enjoyed the Brienne chapters as well as Jamie and Cersi. I found Dorne boring and the squids ridiculous.

I too hope the conclusion kicks ass, but don't accept that because feast/dance is the middle book it gets a pass as being of lower quality. Empire Strikes back was the middle part of a series as well. And we didn't get any substantive trade off in feast/dance for the comparitively slower plot/character development.

[CFdS]

The book shows the problems of grrm's "Gardener not architect" way of storytelling: He seems to just write something that meets his fancy and hopes it will add up in the end. It worked in the first books but now it looks like he completely lost his story: nearly no advancement with Dany (well, she now rides a dragon but that does not justify boatloads of pages about her trouble with the Mereenese) and Jon spent 12 chapters to prepare for the defense of the wall only to grab the Idiot Ball in the last (probably grrm realized that he needs Jon without his vows?) I have no idea what is won by introducing yet another faction to the civil war (no one will survive the winter at this rate, we got it) and Tyrion's travels were not THAT gripping either (I nearly believed he drowned in the Rhoyne. No, just kidding).

After reading Dance I seriously doubt that this series will ever be finished, I would not even count on a sixth book

[Arataniello]

Robert Strong= Robert Bratheon

No. Not by any stretch of the imagination can this be even remotely possible. There are plenty of clues strewn through the previous two books for the reader to understand who "Ser Robert Strong" is.

[The Human Abstract]

I actually enjoyed Tyrion's travels a great deal. What interesting locations.

[Momo]

There are several things that led to my disappointment with A Dance With Dragons. One was the long wait and anticipation. I was just SOOO sure that important parts of the story were going to get advanced in this book. Instead more characters were added, more plot twists and no conclusions. Instead of moving forward I feel as though I've been sunk a little deeper. So my expectations were so at odds with what was delivered...I can't help but be disappointed.

Second, Dany was one of my favorite character in Game and Clash but this book made me nearly hate her. We all know that Meereen is just a stopping place for Dany as she travels back to Westeros. None of us want to get invested with her plot here because we know the really important parts of her story arc are further on her path. Staying in Meereen is killing my interest in her and seems pointless. With so many pages devoted to her POV it made reading painful.

One of the things that is really bringing me down is that I feel a lot like I felt in the middle of the WOT series - adding new characters that do nothing, that don't go anywhere and the author using repetitive characterizations to describe them. I don't care about your sweet little scribe, Dany!

In general one of my biggest problems with this book is that don't want to read entire lengthy novels whose purpose is to just set up action for the next book in the series. Meh.

[VaultDweller]

I actually enjoyed Tyrion's travels a great deal. What interesting locations.

Meh. The only interesting or surprising aspects of the Tyrion chapters were the identities of his companions and Griff being inflicted with the greyscale. Otherwise it was pretty blatantly pointless wandering around in circles that didn't accomplish anything of significance. Maybe it will lead to something, maybe it won't. While reading them I was thinking that they mirrored the Arya and Brienne chapters from previous books in that they would have shown how the events were affecting the different areas and venues. But while I read on I just couldn't hold to that image at all. The events around the Rhoyne were mostly out of the grand picture and while I did enjoy seeing Volantis, I think that GRRM could have shown us that while cutting away significant portions of the voyages. The slaving portions were just a mummers farce.

I have to agree with others on that on most major fronts this book was in fact, quite dull and slow going. It still showed glimpses of great quality once in a while and for those moments alone it was worth it. I liked many of the minor POV's and the Arya and Jaime chapters especially left me craving for more. Theon, Asha, Barristan and others were refreshing as well. Out of the three big ones, Jon's chapters were the ones I liked the most. Even if I found the cliffhanger to be a bit too much. Just don't see the point in him dying and most of the alternatives would be just as bad for the overall plot.

Overall, I enjoyed the book more or less just as much as I enjoyed Feast, but when held to the standards of Swords or the earlier books it just doesn't compare. I just hope that the books gain some speed as far as storytelling goes in the latter books. It seems to have slowed down considerably and if it goes any slower I'm afraid it might not start again.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Reading ASoIaF leaves me bitter. Frustrated. Angry. Depressed. If someone is too happy and you hate them and want to bring 'balance' to their life, recommend ASoIaF to them. Their mood will drop alarmingly. I am amazed at how bloodthirsty this series makes you feel. FFS, there are readers cheering cannibalism by the end of ADWD (I enjoyed reading FreyPies, but I'm aghast at myself).

By the end of ADWD, I'm wishing Jaime dies horribly, I think Theon shouldn't be done with his punishment yet and more dark thoughts about majority of the characters. This is not the kind of emotions that I want from reading a book. Any new development that threatens to ignite hope in your heart is quickly snuffed. First I started by supporting Ned (like everyone else). When he was offed, supporting Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya. At this point loyalty switched somewhat to Stannis and Renly since they were also fighting the 'bad guys'. But they were also at odds with Robb so the 'loyalty' was tenuous at best. When Renly was offed, it went to Stannis. When Stannis was defeated, Robb remained. When Stannis asked for Robb to die, there he went.

Then Catelyn pulls her stupid bullshit with Jaime and we are given his 'redemption' arc. Robb pulls some bullshit on Karstark. Loyalty takes a plunge. They die. A new load of enemies. LF appears out of nowhere and looks like he's going to use Sansa in body, spirit, mind and name. Should I hate him or should I despise him? Then we read about Cersei, Brienne, some people in Dorne, some people in Iron Islands, some obscure maesters down there, some slavers to the east, a dragon queen etc. etc. etc.

Let's recap. Bran is north of the wall going to do god knows what. Arya is across the Narrow Sea going to do god knows what. Jon is going to do god knows what. While in between, we see evry kind of betrayal, plot, sub-plot, some Templar things, undead zombies, Frankenstein, a smattering of Others.

The North Remembers apparently. Well, not nearly as much it seems to me. I read about Ryswells, Dustins, Horseheads or was that one of their banners? Some Dustin girl hates Ned and won't let his bones reach Winterfell. Did we cover some human skinning maniac? Senators Marsh, Yarwick, For Rome...no For the Watch, pardon me.

That's a rather long recap but once I step back and look at this shambles of a story, I can't imagine what to make of it. Should I care about any of these nitwits. Afterall they're just a bunch of words, nothing more. In my head, I don't even visualize a character anymore, the food they eat has more character than they do. And this constant barrage of greed, bloodlust, hatred, rage is just exhausting. Whenever, a character shows an iota of courage, some righteous (can you believe this? righteous?) character will admonish them. Look at Ellaria Sand and the Sand Snakes. A Alysanne Mormont is regarded as a She-Bear but shudders at the thought of men burning. A Kevan Lannister talks of bringing peace to the realm yet has a FrankenGregor standing next to him. A Dragon Queen allows torture of a man and his daughters, yet vows to keep peace and abandon slavery and yet ultimately does the opposite. FFS, why should I care?

At a certain point, believability gets stretched paper thin and this series is well past it. Roman slaves probably had more emotion than the characters we get to see in this story. When every positive trait is countered by scheming and betrayal rather than supported it starts to get tiresome. I am actually surprised at myself when I want certain characters to be killed off. Some may say that that shows how powerful the story is. I say, hate is the only emotion that this story inspires in me.

Thoughts?

[The Human Abstract]

Meh. The only interesting or surprising aspects of the Tyrion chapters were the identities of his companions and Griff being inflicted with the greyscale. Otherwise it was pretty blatantly pointless wandering around in circles that didn't accomplish anything of significance. Maybe it will lead to something, maybe it won't. While reading them I was thinking that they mirrored the Arya and Brienne chapters from previous books in that they would have shown how the events were affecting the different areas and venues. But while I read on I just couldn't hold to that image at all. The events around the Rhoyne were mostly out of the grand picture and while I did enjoy seeing Volantis, I think that GRRM could have shown us that while cutting away significant portions of the voyages. The slaving portions were just a mummers farce.

I guess I respect that opinion. Didn't find that to be the case myself, though. I truly enjoyed the locations and descriptions of the journey.