[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[iamthedave]

Her reaction to Ned Stark's death was especially rageworthy - "he died a traitor's death". Yeah, the fact that your insane father burned his father and brother alive had nothing to do with his rebelling. No, Aerys was the true king by blood and I'm his heir blah blah blah etc.

I don't think Dany will ever be fit to rule. I'd back Aegon over her, fake or no. If he's not a true Targaryen it might be even better, because then he won't have the batshit crazy gene at least half of the Targs seem to have - possibly including Dany.

What I found rageworthy wasn't her reaction - I expected that, the 'traitors' are very much a mental crutch for her - but that Barristan just goes quiet instead of telling her the truth, which Dany herself has asked him for before.

As for her batshit crazy gene... yeah, she's got it. Her whole 'wake the dragon' thing is more than just borrowing a phrase from Vis. She has a terrible temper problem. While right now it's not destructive, she mostly just lashes out verbally or hands out minor punishments (except in Jorah's case), but Aerys was fine in his youth, too.

Dany is not Rhaegar Targ come again: she's her father's daughter (with dragons).

[Rockroi]

My overall impressions:

There was a point- I am not sure- maybe the 4th or fifth scene in Winterfell where nothing was happening but I could clearly feel this building tension: that something huge was brewing and that it was percolating just out of our peripheral vision; Theon being tortured; the rift between Manderly and Frey; the buildup of distrust between Ramsey and Roose; the coming of Stannis’ men; the killings, etc. It was all building; the storms, the tension, Reek being tortured and still building; Asha’a apprehension; the Karstarks being back-stabbers; etc into this all-consuming cacophony wherein you KNEW something was going to happen at Winterfell. And it was going to be a physical and emotional masterpiece.

Now Hold That Thought.

That was at page 686. We never return to Winterfell. We get about 200 pages of description of snow falling and how cold it was. We got that. But no battle; no conflict; no examination into the psychological elements that had been building for pages and pages. No Roose, no betrayal by the Karstarks; nothing. In Jon Snow’s last chapter, we get a rambling incoherent letter (a fucking L-E-T-T-E-R) from Ramsey Bolton saying how the battle took 7 days and he won and everyone else lost and he was angry and he wanted his wife back and he was going to kill people and Stannis was dead and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. We see none of this. No. In fact, the implication is that the loser lost more men to frostbite than to the enemy.

Much like Dragonstone in AFfC, we get a letter. Is it true? Who knows?!! It doesn’t matter; all that matters is that we didn’t see anything except a statement of conclusion. This would be akin to reading Clash of Kings and then getting to the part about the Blackwater- after 400+ pages of build-up and tension etc- and you read a chapter wherein Robb Stark reads a letter from Stannis or Tyrion wherein one claims victory and you don’t see any evidence that what the “winner” is saying is true. In fact, you really think that maybe the loser lost more men to scurvy than actual warfare.

And we waited 6 years. For a letter.

Okay so with that as a backdrop here are my overall impressions of A Dance with Dragons (ADwD):

What I liked:

Jon Lannister: Easily the most improved character in ADwD from his prior life is Jon Snow; gone is the indecisive, remote and almost frozen Jon Snow and in his place is the dynamic and cunning Lord Commander Snow. Instead of Jon Snow waiting for the action to happen to him, Commander Snow takes the initiative- with the Wildings, with Janos Slynt (fucking amazing), with Bowen Marsh, etc. Jon Snow is making hard decisions- from telling Gilly that if she did not agree to the switch he would kill her child NO MATTER WHAT to his almost Herculean effort to save the Wildings, Jon Snow has arrived.

Most notably, Snow execution of Janos Slynt was masterful and completely necessary; Slynt defied Jon and Jon worked out EXACTLY how any other punishment would be ineffective. No. He needed to give the last full measure. This is wholly reminiscent of Tywin Lannister with the Tarbecks and with Castermere- older, proud houses defied Tywin and he knew that by allowing them to continue their defiance it would undermine his very existence as Warden of the North. Much the same here- Jon knew that while Slynt had not harmed Jon, he would undermine his very command. Slynt had to be killed.

Tywin Lannister would have been proud. THAT’s is how you command; THAT is how you make men snap to attention; THAT is how you deal with insubordination; THAT is how you win.

Rhymes with Freak: The psychological torture of Theon Greyjoy was a powerful and potent as any part of any of the other books. The writing was a reminder that not all battles are waged in the field; many are waged in our own minds. The slowing and inexorable devolution of Theon into the weak and hapless Reek was a masterful performance by Martin. It shows how torture robs men not of their physical strength, but their mental capacity and how the mental anguish eventually turns the victim against himself. This was- it bears repeating – as good as any other part of any of the other books.

The Battles for the North: I stated this before, but the main focus of Stannis v. Bolton was executed with extreme precision. I admired how the tension rose to excruciating levels- how men started to die, snow started to fall, and both sides were disabled mostly by the Fog of War. Infighting reached a fevered pitch (one camp far more than the other) and both sides started to get desperate. IT was a gradually tightening tension spring threatening to go off.

Hold. That. Thought.

The Golden Company: I just liked the detail that this group of sell-swords brings. I really enjoyed their chapters.

The Demise of The Martell Master Plan Now in its 17th Year. I enjoyed how the best laid plans of Prince Martell failed. Miserably. I liked how Quentin died like a punk. I liked that after all that- all the scheming and subterfuge; all the movements and risks; all the subtlety and intrigue; after all that- if you stand too close to a dragon, they’re going to shoot fire up your ass. Idiot. Nice job guys; this is why you have a FIVE year plan; not a 17 year plan.

Stannis Baratheon: I just think that Stannis continues to step up and lead men. Yeah, he’s about as inspiring as a tax audit and he has about as much empathy as your average hammer, but when push comes to shove- as it invariably does – there is one guy who always seems to push back the hardest. From Storm’s End to the Blackwater to the Wall to Deepwood Motte, and then out to Winterfell, Stannis just methodically overcomes adversity, leads like a true King and gets results. IF only other characters would take that lead.

Dragons: The development with the dragons is that they are wild and yearn for freedom is far more interesting than the Stark’s wolves who remain attached to their owners and do whatever they want whenever they want it. Dragons are a much tougher breed. I liked how they are insanely powerful and just as uncontrollable.

It was Much Better than AFfC: Just stating the obvious. AFfC was a lost book; untethered to any developing story line with building tension and no sense of pay off. That was not (as) true with ADwD; their was an abundance of building, layered tension.

My Criticisms:

Vasocongestion/ epididymal hypertension (look it up): Tension Was Never Resolved: Everything I stated above- how masterful the Stannis v. Roose scenes were; how there was masterful buildup of tension in those scenes in the North; all of that is 100% true. And we never see ANY pay off from it. We had all tension and build-up but no release; no climax. Its akin to those stupid jokes wherein its all set up and it goes on and on and on and on and on and then the punch line is, basically, that this was a really long joke. That’s what all that was. Sound and Fury signifying nothing. It all went nowhere.

This was no more evident than with Dany’s storylines. When the story begins, Meeren is being besieged by the Sons of the Harpy who are picking off her free men and the other slave cities plotting outside her walls to kill her; and there are dothrakai out there.

We then get, what? 10 Dany chapters – and how does her story end? Meeren is being besieged by the Sons of the Harpy who are picking off her free men and the other slave cities plotting outside her walls to kill her; and there are dothrakai out there.

I’m glad we finally had some of that resolved. Or… or not.

I’m not saying that in the pages I read every single problem in Westeros needs to be solved, but if you are going to START some issues, resolve a few of them. OR at the very least give us some information that shows ongoing progress. And don’t make it a letter.

Look on the bright Side Father; At Least Rhaegar Targaryen Is Still Dead (what this book presupposes it… maybe he isn’t):

Maybe the most note-worthy aspect of ASoIaF is that Martin will kill off any character in order to realistically advance the story. The death of characters- from Ned Stark all the way to Lommy Greenhands –has raised the credibility of this series and the author, making the story far more dangerous as characters could be killed at any time. And yet…

Here is a list of characters that were (at least for a time) reported DEAD who had not actually died:

Aaegon Targaryen (pre-books)

Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Cat Stark

Theon Greyjoy

Jon Connington

Beric Dondarrion

Sandor Cleagan (not the time in CoK when Tyrion announces that he’s dead but its fairly obvious he isn’t)

Gregor Cleagan

Mance Ryder

Danaerys Targaryen

Martin is no longer in the business of killing characters; he’s in the business of reporting on the killing of characters.

Remember when they killed Ned? Remember how shocked you were- OMG!!!!! How could they do that?! Did that just happen? ZOMG!!! Do you remember how you felt?

Hold that thought.

In the very last Jon Snow chapter, Jon Snow is repeatedly stabbed by multiple enemies, all of whom are grown men and at point-blank range. Do you remember how you felt? Do you think there is ANY CHANCE that Jon is dead? Any chance at all? No chance. None. But that was not true when the bad guys got Ned. The EXACT opposite: we were STUNNED that the main character was dead. And you knew he wasn’t coming back. That is NOT how you felt when you read that last Jon Snow chapter; many people here have exclaimed that there is just no way Jon could be dead; they have learned to distrust the reports of dead characters, even if its from their own POV. The shock and awe of the death of characters is GONE. Why?

Because so many are coming back, we lose how dangerous this universe is. That feeling of dread and danger and peril has been eroded because EVERYONE comes back! The reports of EVERYONE’s demise are all greatly exaggerated. All that credibility the book had on how characters need to be killed is lost because the character may not be dead; if the plot calls for it, they can step right up and help advance the story. And with little explanation.

Let me flip the scrip for a moment on this criticism: if somehow in the middle of CoK you read that Jon Snow was stabbed repeatedly by his brothers on the Wall, you would EASILY think he was dead, right? Conversely, if you read at the end of ADwD that Ned Stark was beheaded, after reading EVERYTHING ELSE in these books… would you believe that he were really dead? Or would you think that he – like Cat and Theon and Mance and Aegon –could just pop back up again whenever the story called for it?

That’s how far the series has fallen. We no longer fear for these characters’ deaths. Even when we read about them.

Your Grace, let me tell you the story of your father’s… aunt’s, cousin’s husband’s horse. You will find it very enlightening. So, Star Wars. After meeting Obi-wan Kanobi, Luke Skaywalker does not wait a moment before asking his wise teacher “How did my father die?” And why? Because Luke is fascinated with his father. Hence, he would, naturally ask about his father from somebody who KNEW his father.

Not Dany. Dear God no! Dany is fascinated with Rhaegar. We are fascinated by Rhaegar. Last book, it was revealed to her that Barristan Selmy was in her service- a man who protected Rhaegar and served with him on the Trident. He can tell her things about Rahegar including, you know, the Trident etc. But does she?

Dear. God. No. Why? That would only be interesting. It would only give the reader insight into events that have been teasing the reader since the first pages of the first book. That’s all. Instead, we get stories about people we don’t care about, who we never met and who we have no interest in. Dany asks who her parents would have married? SERIOUSLY! Did ANY of us have on or minds “Gee, I wonder who Aerys’ wife would have married if she could have married anyone?” In the immortal words of Stan Marsh, “Dude, we don’t care.”

We get another version of that at Winterfell. Lady Don’t Give a Fuck tells Theon that she was in love with Brandon Stark- because EVERYONE tells the crazy limping guy who smells and says weird things who they used to love 15 years ago. And she is just talking about it like crazy… blah blah blah blah … and WHO CARES???? We never MET this woman before this book! I really don’t care. Like, at all. But, hey- who knows who Jon Snow’s parents are! Meh, we’ll get to it … maybe.

And then the bait and switch: Selmy is blathering on about something and says “It all lead to Summerhal.” Yes, the shrouded mystery off Summerhal that has been teasing the reader for several books now. Yes, that very hidden gem that may give us insight into these characters and these books. Yes. Dany, wouldn’t you like to know about Summerhal?

NOPE! She dismisses Selmy before he can potentially tell the reader something interesting. Thank God- that was close.

Who Are These People? And Why Do their POVs Keep Popping Up When I am In The Middle of Interesting Stuff How many more POVs are we going to get? How many more characters are we going to be introduced to that we are never going to care about? How many more people need to crowd this book? And the use of some of these characters is simply convoluted.

Why was Victarion in the books again? Because he was on the way to meet Dany? Yeah, we knew that already.

What was Arya doing? Training to be a Faceless man? Yeah, we knew that already

What was Areo Hotap doing in the books? Revealing the plottings of Dorne? Yeah, we knew that already.

Why is Jaime in this book? Making peace in the Riverlands? Yeah, we knew that already.

Why is Cersei in this book? Making an ass of herself? Yeah, we knew that already.

What is Mel doing again? Making strange predictions on the Wall? Yeah, we knew that already.

And the books get more and more crowded- the new King of the wildings (who we then get back-story on and how he’s NOT a King… for reals????); the new King with Dany (I could not explain WHY Martin thought anyone would have found THAT guy interesting); new sell-swords; a cavalcade of people whose names all sound the same with Dany; etc etc. And all they serve to do is crowd the story.

Saving the Worst For First: Tyrion Lannister is one of my favorite characters. He is witty and sharp; his chapters are crisp and fresh with perspective and intellect.

Hold That Thought.

Tyrion starts in Pentos- doesn’t do anything; goes to Griff et al- doesn’t do anything; is captured by Jorah Mormont (hold that thought) - doesn’t do anything; get’s sold into slavery- doesn’t do anything (no wait, he meets another dwarf… WHO WE DON’T CARE ABOUT!); he becomes a murmerer- doesn’t do anything; he is sold again into slavery – doesn’t do anything; finally he arrives near Dany … WHO DISAPPEARS!!! (Thank God- we almost had two major characters meet in the same place wherein they could advance the story – nice job in narrowly avoiding synergy). Finally, Tyrion does what any pampered rich dwarf would do who has no fighting prowess whatsoever.

He joins a company of sell swords. Yes. You read that correctly. That actually happened.

And not ONE SINGLE thing Tyrion did all story advanced the plot in any meaningful way. We are just as lost in this convoluted cavalcade of events and happenings as ever. NONE of Tyrion’s actions fits with any OTHER part of Tyrion’s actions; they are just a random collection of events disguised as advancement.

And that is where my disappointment comes from: I thought Tyrion was important. Instead, he’s pure filler. After leaving Griff and Young Griff, Tyrion does nothing meaningful (And even prior to that it was iffy). He jumps from one situation to the next; he’s not a character- he’s a tour guide of the absurd. And that’s not why we love Tyrion.

I really thought that Tyrion was wasted when he could have advanced the plot a great deal.

So where does this leave us?

After 6 years of waiting we got a little, but the little we did get was very, very good. This was a dramatic improvement over AFfC and in many ways it was worth the wait. This is a simering book filled with the overarching tension that AFfC sorely lacked.

At the same time, ADwD lacked much of the punch and the solid story growth of the previous books- conflict grew, but was hardly ever resolved- Quentin being the only exception; we get no answer to any questions haunting us for several books now; the characters seemed stuck on this hamster-wheel where they expend energy, but don’t go anywhere. Its not even as if they are running in circles; its as if they are running in place.

When will we start to see resolution? When will we get some pay-off for our intellectual investment? When will these divergent characters and their disparate story-lines begin to come together? When will conflict be resolved? When will we know where this story is going? ADwD does nothing to answer these questions; it just gives us more questions.

In other words, if you were looking for DwD to be some sort of fulfilling book that nourishes that curiosity you have for this time and place, sorry, this book does not deliver. All you get is an IOU for resolution; more build-up now for some potential payoff later… maybe. In other words, the tension is rising and there is no resolution in sight. So, yeah, if you want to find something fulfilling here…. Hold that thought.

[VorianGR]

A minor gripe here.

Aaegon Targaryen (pre-books) We don't know if it's really him.Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Cat Stark I don't consider that hate-zombie to be Catelyn Tully. If she ever met her children she wouldn't know what to do with them

Theon Greyjoy He was never considered dead

Jon Connington minor character

Beric Dondarrion

Sandor Cleagan (not the time in CoK when Tyrion announces that he’s dead but its fairly obvious he isn’t) if he stays in the monastery he is as good as dead to the story

Gregor Cleagan It's only his body probably....

Mance Ryder

Danaerys Targaryen When?

But otherwise I agree. Meereen took too long, was hard to read, I couldn't care less if it burnt to the ground (I hope it does) and it seems that Dany might start traveling east again.....waste of time.

[Humble Asskicker]

For those of you disappointed, brace yourselves:

I know lots of writers, and not one of them takes Amazon reviews seriously. Or any anonymous reviews, actually. Internet anonymity encourages trolling, sock puppetry, and other forms of abuse, and the Amazon reviews demonstrate that beyond a doubt.

As for "too much description," well, opinions differ. We write the books we want to read. And I want to read books that are richly textured and full of sensory detail, books that make me feel as if I am experiencing a story, not just reading it. Plot is only one aspect of telling a tale, and not the most important one. It is the journey that matters, not how fast you arrrive at the destination.

That's my view, anyway. Others writers differ, of course. There are hundreds of books where everything is subordinate to advancing the plot, some of them quite fine, but my work has never been about that, and never will be.

Quoth the man himself. He worked long and hard on this book. I don't think he gave it anything but his best. And I don't think he will appreciate any comments but the best. He trusts in himself and his editors, and from there he just goes forth and does his thing.

He's definitely pleased with he produced. And so if you don't like where this is headed, it's gonna be rough going for the rest of the series.

For myself, I enjoyed Dance while recognizing that it truly did have problems with momentum, so it didn't leave me entirely satisfied. I think, like a younger sibling, Dance while measured well by itself, really is dwarfed by the accomplishments of its predecessors. Like many have pointed out, this is a set-up novel. Unquestionably. GRRM set out to write the best set-up novel that he could possibly write, and mastered the elements which concerned him: namely, chronology, and telling the side stories that "needed to be told." However, all of the preceding novels (well, 1-3) contained that essential element in that they weren't just there to set the table for what was to come, but that they were grand stories worth reading for their sequence alone. The same cannot be said of Feast and Dance. There's a sense that, however, well written they may be (and I would argue Dance is much more of an improvement on Feast), there is a sense of stagnation.

The books 1-3 had the same atmosphere and sharp dialog and deep character, but they also had the sense of things moving forward. My favorite books, 1 and 3 (mostly 3), were fantastic in that department and had more of a sense of progression than most trilogies even. They were eventful, and you could feel it. You definitely didn't have to search your mind for plot points that were significant, as is the case with Feast and Dance.

In defense of both Feast and Dance books, neither are nearly as egregious an offender as some of the stuff Robert Jordan produced, but they frustrate rather than fulfill.

Anyway, I sense that GRRM is on his own path right now, one that has become irrevocably different from the one he set out on pre- 5 year gap. I don't see this series ever being as much as it could have been, but fortunately for me, I think I will be entertained.

That is, if there ever is another book after Dance, which I think is something to be legitimately doubtful about. GRRM says things are coming together, but I can't see it from what I read at the end of Dance.

[Gargantuanjon Old Chap]

Great review Rockroi - btw you missed Davos in your list. I agree that the reported-dead-but-a-ha-actually-not is getting tiresome.

I liked ADWD and I stand by my view that ASOIAF is the greatest story in history of literature. I was initially a little disappointed by ADWD by I don't think it's honest to judge the book without reading Winds first. Just like I didn't think it was fair to criticize AFFC without ADWD.

[Kalbear]

I liked ADWD and I stand by my view that ASOIAF is the greatest story in history of literature. I was initially a little disappointed by ADWD by I don't think it's honest to judge the book without reading Winds first. Just like I didn't think it was fair to criticize AFFC without ADWD.

That seems a bit dishonest. Should you be judging AGOT either, then? Or all of ASOIAF before it's finished?

A book should be able to stand on its own to some degree. Otherwise why make it a book? Why not just release a chapter every month for 72 months? (note: ADWD could have done that, given that it has 73 chapters and it was 6 years). A book does have a feeling of being somewhat self-contained, just like seasons in TV do. And while you're right that a lot of the setup here will payoff later, it doesn't mean that a book should be just setup. If AGOT was simply setup and ended right before Ned's death, would you hold it in high esteem?

[Original Ned's Bones]

The Brienne cliffhanger was addressed in such a way that it answered almost none of the actual questions people had about her 'ending'. What was her word? What did she agree to do? WHY did she agree? Did she decide her oath is binding after all, or is she just trying to save Pod? And most importantly, is it likely the brotherhood will just kill her anyway?

Not to get off topic here, but I think you should re-read the last Brienne chapter from AFFC. Brienne showing up in Jaime's camp answers every one of those questions. I'll have to paraphrase since I don't have the book, but Stoneheart says, "Sword or noose....choose". Brienne is hanging there and she sees Pod dangling beside her and she thinks, Nothing ever hurt so much in her life. She screamed a word. It's not the pain of the hanging that hurts, it's the decision she just made, the decision to not let innocent Pod die for her oath, and the decision that she would have to betray Jaime to do that. So she yells "sword". She must either kill Jaime herself or bring him to Stoneheart's "justice". As to your last question, we won't know until they get there and Jaime has his "trial". I wonder if Brienne will give him any heads up to what awaits them, and risk losing Jaime before they get there.

On topic: Rockroi, that was a great review, and I think it completely sums up my impressions as well.

[Happy Ent]

Rarely do I agree with every word of such a long post, so I had to requote it.

Please don’t. We don’t like that here. You can edit your post and remove the long post.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

BoV,

Dance has some really cool moments, though. I am a fan of the series, but not a diehard fan, so my expectations have already been tempered as far back as Game when I realized that favorite characters like Ned can die and the story will still go on. The book did not disappoint me, because I didn't expect too much from it. But I do agree that the long wait makes the volume somewhat of a let down.

I'm not quite done and I do think ADWD has some great moments. However, I also think it lacks the degree of narrative cohesion we've seen with the other books. Many bitched about AFFC but that book had strong narrative cohesion. This book reads like a series of loosely connected vigennets. Each well written but it's difficult to see how they should fit together to create the synergy we are accustomed to in most of GRRM's works.

GRRM's difficulty in making the pieces fit shows. To be clear I'm not saying this is a bad book. It's just not as good as the others in my opinion.

[Raging Bear]

You have to take ADwD, And AFfC for what they are.

I never expected major plot advancements in ADwD (esp. after reading AFfC). Books 4/5 were always meant to wrap up the events of books 2/3 and set up of the events of books 6/7.

GRRM originally wanted to cover this with a 5-year gap, but couldn't make it work without a bunch of flashbacks. I can see why he had such a hard time writing these two books. He had to find things for his characters to do in that time without disturbing the grand overarching plot of the series.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think my biggest complaint is that we've essentially waited 11 years for filler. A lot of it is well-written filler, to be sure, but it's filler nonetheless. Martin originally wanted to skip this entire period and have book four open after a five year gap, but then he decided to fill that gap in and there wasn't an advancement in the plotline available. The past couple of books have really been a lot of people walking around and not doing much except describing the scenery.

Like others, my biggest complaint is the focus on non-Westeros places. We all know that Mereen is irrelevant to the plot and simply a stopover point while Dany brings her dragons into the fray. The two-dimensional and banal way which it was written didn't make it more interesting and it's still no more than a sideshow that everyone wants to have finish so that the main plot can move forward. It's the same for the rest of the world - for instance, did anybody really give half a shit when that priest said he saw Qarth in flames when looking into his fire? It's a boring and two-dimensionally written place which served as a plot device and has been moved past and forgotten. Does anybody care that Tyrion promised to give Pentos to that sellsword? It doesn't matter. It's fine fleshing out the world with all these exotic places, but enough already - move back to the story.

Hopefully now that he's finished all this tripe that he never intended to write, Martin can move back onto the plotline that he originally planned and things will get back on the track they were in the first few books. However, these last two may instead be an indication that he's pulling a Jordan and dumping out filler that nobody wants to edit for him because we're still willing to pay after getting hooked on the earlier books. If the latter's the case, at least Sanderson's almost done cleaning up that mess and will be available shortly.

[Gargantuanjon Old Chap]

That seems a bit dishonest. Should you be judging AGOT either, then? Or all of ASOIAF before it's finished?

A book should be able to stand on its own to some degree. Otherwise why make it a book? Why not just release a chapter every month for 72 months? (note: ADWD could have done that, given that it has 73 chapters and it was 6 years). A book does have a feeling of being somewhat self-contained, just like seasons in TV do. And while you're right that a lot of the setup here will payoff later, it doesn't mean that a book should be just setup. If AGOT was simply setup and ended right before Ned's death, would you hold it in high esteem?

When it comes to series, I tent to judge a book only after its direct sequel is out. Rarely do things hang for more than two books, so this works for me.

I wouldn't judge AGOT until ACOK. I wouldn't judge AFFC until ADWD, and I don't want to judge ADWD until Winds... I guess I look at the series a little different, where to me this is all a single story. Judging every book separately and right after it's out I don't think is wise when we have no idea where things are going. For all we know, first ten chapters in Winds make us think back on events in ADWD and go "oh, OK, this changes everything. This is goddamn beautiful, George, THANKS." Or maybe they won't. But I'm going to hold off judging ADWD until then.

[MindLikeWarp]

When it comes to series, I tent to judge a book only after its direct sequel is out. Rarely do things hang for more than two books, so this works for me.

I wouldn't judge AGOT until ACOK. I wouldn't judge AFFC until ADWD, and I don't want to judge ADWD until Winds... I guess I look at the series a little different, where to me this is all a single story. Judging every book separately and right after it's out I don't think is wise when we have no idea where things are going. For all we know, first ten chapters in Winds make us think back on events in ADWD and go "oh, OK, this changes everything. This is goddamn beautiful, George, THANKS." Or maybe they won't. But I'm going to hold off judging ADWD until then.

So how do you judge Feast?

[mormont]

[mod] Quick reminder: please do not requote long posts in full, especially if you are not going to do anything other than agree with them. [/mod]

[Gargantuanjon Old Chap]

So how do you judge Feast?

Just finished ADWD, re-reading all 5 books now, will know once I get there :) Last time I read Feast was about 2 years ago, and my impression wasn't overly favorable, but I reserved it until ADWD. I think Feast and ADWD are a little exceptiony because they are supposed to be one book, but since ADWD stretches a good bit further, I think many events in AFFC will read differently. I'll post a longer review once I get there.

Also, I wanted to remind everyone who is disappointed in Dance or other books in the series... GRRM said that he wants books to become better on re-reads. And I completely agree. So many of the scenes take entirely different meaning/perception once you read knowing what happens later. Cat's final chapter in AGOT on 1st read vs re-read is probably the best example of this.

That said, I don't think anything (Winds, re-read... anything) can fix ADWD's blunder with fake deaths. He's overdone it, period. I can only hope he stops at Jon and every other death to follow is for real.

[Ser Pistus]

Remember when they killed Ned? Remember how shocked you were- OMG!!!!! How could they do that?! Did that just happen? ZOMG!!! Do you remember how you felt?

Hold that thought.

In the very last Jon Snow chapter, Jon Snow is repeatedly stabbed by multiple enemies, all of whom are grown men and at point-blank range. Do you remember how you felt? Do you think there is ANY CHANCE that Jon is dead? Any chance at all? No chance. None.

Your whole analysis was great, but this part is golden.

And let us add the Red Wedding as well. We were seasoned readers then, 2 and a half books behind us, but is still hit. But the knifing of Jon only drew a sigh and the rolling of eyes from me.

[The Stranger]

[mod] Quick reminder: please do not requote long posts in full, especially if you are not going to do anything other than agree with them. [/mod]

[reader] Please do not write long posts. Be succinct and develop your ideas through subsequent comments. [/reader]

[Trinket]

review

That was one amazing post :laugh:

I'm just going to agree with most of the points in there.

The book was OK. Not great (like the first 3), but ok. It is definately the weakest one of the series though.

[Faint]

I'm somewhat concerned with the "professional" reviews of the book. They are so out of step with general reaction that you wonder at their credibility and whether there is too much improper influence as a result of wanting to get the book early. Most fans do seem to like the book, as do I, but a very small minority actually think it's the best or even the second best in the series. From what I can tell, most would rank it fourth or third, the majority being the former. You would never get that impression if you read the reviews. Very few mention the terribly contrived cliffhangers at the end or the uneven pacing with some rare exceptions -- and even those tend to be the blogs. Even less reviewers mention that most of the book is simply set-up to what one would hope is a far more exciting book to come. In the end, surprisingly, despite how short and sparse it is, the Publisher's Weekly review was the most honest and accurate. Window dressing aside, ADwD was simply the second-half of AFfC, and they seem to have the only review that explicitly acknowledges that and gives warning to readers not to expect too much.

[Sega AM2]

Look on the bright Side Father; At Least Rhaegar Targaryen Is Still Dead (what this book presupposes it… maybe he isn’t):

Maybe the most note-worthy aspect of ASoIaF is that Martin will kill off any character in order to realistically advance the story. The death of characters- from Ned Stark all the way to Lommy Greenhands –has raised the credibility of this series and the author, making the story far more dangerous as characters could be killed at any time. And yet…

Here is a list of characters that were (at least for a time) reported DEAD who had not actually died:

Aaegon Targaryen (pre-books)

Bran Stark

Rickon Stark

Cat Stark

Theon Greyjoy

Jon Connington

Beric Dondarrion

Sandor Cleagan (not the time in CoK when Tyrion announces that he’s dead but its fairly obvious he isn’t)

Gregor Cleagan

Mance Ryder

Danaerys Targaryen

You can add Davos to the list as well as he is reported to be dead.

But it's not abundance of fake deaths that bothers me. GRRM can keep doing that all he wants. It's the lack of actual final deaths that is becoming annoying. I don't care if GRRM has resurrections and feigned deaths as long as he throws in some real dramatic endings that have permanence to certain characters and can rapidly advance along the story.

Martin is no longer in the business of killing characters; he’s in the business of reporting on the killing of characters.

Remember when they killed Ned? Remember how shocked you were- OMG!!!!! How could they do that?! Did that just happen? ZOMG!!! Do you remember how you felt?

It's even worse. In A Game of Throne it is not only Ned that shockingly dies to advance the story. King Robert dies off screen having been killed by a pig when he is hammered drunk and makes room for a huge power struggle. Viserys, the person who wants to lead a Dothraki horde into Westeros to claim a crown, has molten gold poured on his head. We don't even find out the full ramifications for his death until AFFC. And Khal Drogo, the most ruthless and savage Khal, who actually promises Dany that their son Rhaego will rule Westeros and the Iron Throne, dies with a pillow over his face. And his death results in the birth of three Dragons.

"Only death can pay for life". And deaths in ASOIAF can pay for amazing game changing story points. Ned's death causes tons of war. Robert's death causes people to start playing the game of thrones for keeps. Drogo's death gives Dany the impetus to birth three live Dragons. Their deaths lead to some of the biggest events and those are just the first book.

I actually had a feeling that Ned would not survive in AGOT the first time I read it after he was taken captive. "When you play the game of thrones you win or you die". Ned lost and I figured he'd die from an assassin while being escorted to The Wall after he took the black. But King Robert's death happening so suddenly caught me by surprise. Viserys getting 'crowned', I also did not see coming. And Khal Drogo's completely anticlimactic death blew me away. That GRRM would build up this elite warrrior Khal and set him up to invade Westeros only to have him killed by a pillow. I was floored. It was groundbreaking in fantasy for me as I was always used to warrior characters going out in some glorious struggle with swords and steel . Not pillows and blankets.

In the very last Jon Snow chapter, Jon Snow is repeatedly stabbed by multiple enemies, all of whom are grown men and at point-blank range. Do you remember how you felt? Do you think there is ANY CHANCE that Jon is dead? Any chance at all? No chance. None.

It is obvious that Jon's resurrection was moved to TWOW. Why? GRRM? Anne Groell or whoever? We already know that several major events were moved to TWOW because "ADWD was too large". Jon coming back as Azor Ahai is of course one of those events.

The best part is that Kevan actually does die from getting stabbed to death a few chapters later. He gets surrounded and pierced by daggers. But Kevan is unfortunate in that he doesn't wear plot armor.

But that was not true when the bad guys got Ned. The EXACT opposite: we were STUNNED that the main character was dead. And you knew he wasn’t coming back. That is NOT how you felt when you read that last Jon Snow chapter; many people here have exclaimed that there is just no way Jon could be dead; they have learned to distrust the reports of dead characters, even if its from their own POV. The shock and awe of the death of characters is GONE. Why?

Tyrion had plot armor way before Jon did. Tyrion is practically immortal. He survives everything against all possible odds. GRRM could have made Jon die and then thrown us a changeup and had Stannis actually as Azor Ahai. I even might have welcomed that turn of events. But Dany and Tyrion are going to make it until the very end which is why every single time they come under fire there is zero suspense whatsoever. And now Jon as well. Tyrion's plot armor allows him to survive so many things:

- captured by Cateleyn, doesn't die to mountain clans

- lucks out with Bronn, wins trial by battle

- isn't killed by mountain clans again, actually recruits them to fight with him

- survives battle of Green Fork including getting some kills

- survives the battle of Blackwater and leads charge

- survives an assassin, face gets cut off and almost drowns

- loses trial by battle...but Jaime lets him go

- immune to grey scale even though he swims in it

- not recognized by anyone but Jorah

- survives major storm at sea

- saved from lions in the fighting pits

- easily frees himself from slavery

- wins over the sellsword company he's with

Tyrion's character is ridiculous in how lucky he is. He wins his first trial by battle not only gaining his life but getting Bronn, a sellsword who is near Jaime's level of fighting prowess. He loses his second trial by combat but gets freed anyways. He fights in huge battles, even though he's a dwarf, and always comes out on top. Not a single person in Essos tries to ransom him to Cersei. Only Jorah takes him and they end up as slaves. But Tyrion uses his plot tricks to get out of slavery and now he essentially owns a sellsword company.

I find it just as lame to put Tyrion in so many near death experience only to have him escape just in time as it is with characters to have them fake killed only to be brought back. Tyrion sees so much danger but it's never really dangerous for him because of his plot armor. There is no suspense when Tyrion is in danger.

Oh Tyrion is in another battle...he kills a dozen knights and lives. Uh oh...Tyrion is another trial by combat...oh he lose...wait nope Jaime will save him. Oh Tyrion is captured by slavers...he frees himself and Jorah and takes control over a sellsword company.

I hope my eyes don't roll out of my head when Tyrion is riding Viserion beyond The Wall and fighting The Others, after Selmy tells him he's a secret Targ, and then he tracks down Tysha and marries her.

Because so many are coming back, we lose how dangerous this universe is. That feeling of dread and danger and peril has been eroded because EVERYONE comes back! The reports of EVERYONE’s demise are all greatly exaggerated. All that credibility the book had on how characters need to be killed is lost because the character may not be dead; if the plot calls for it, they can step right up and help advance the story. And with little explanation.

That’s how far the series has fallen. We no longer fear for these characters’ deaths. Even when we read about them.

Jon, Tyrion, and Dany won't die until the end of the story. I don't see how people can really think that any of those characters will die until the great battle against The Others. So when GRRM puts those characters in tight spots it is boring because they always win. And if one of them is said to be have died it is obviously not true.

Your Grace, let me tell you the story of your father’s… aunt’s, cousin’s husband’s horse...

Not Dany. Dear God no! Dany is fascinated with Rhaegar. We are fascinated by Rhaegar. Last book, it was revealed to her that Barristan Selmy was in her service- a man who protected Rhaegar and served with him on the Trident. He can tell her things about Rahegar including, you know, the Trident etc. But does she?

Dear. God. No. Why? That would only be interesting...

And then the bait and switch: Selmy is blathering on about something and says “It all lead to Summerhal.” Yes, the shrouded mystery off Summerhal that has been teasing the reader for several books now. Yes, that very hidden gem that may give us insight into these characters and these books. Yes. Dany, wouldn’t you like to know about Summerhal?

NOPE! She dismisses Selmy before he can potentially tell the reader something interesting. Thank God- that was close.

It's even dumber than that. When Selmy is parading around as Arstan Whitebeard she listens to him talk all about Rhaeger. We even get Jorah's "he fought honorably and died" line because Dany is fascinated by Rhaegar. Not only that but Dany is always thinking back on how much Viserys told her about Westeros. About its people, about its geography, about their family and the Targ history. Even about Dragons.

Before ADWD Dany seems genuinely interested in Westeros and the recent Targ rule. When Selmy reveals himself she is excited at how much he knows about her family and that he even served the Targ King before Aerys. Yet now we have a complete shift in her regard for his information.

If it was consistent at least, where before ADWD Dany wanted never to hear about Westeros, I wouldn't mind. But she clearly used to want to know about the past. And now she has Selmy, a living history book, and she interrupts him every single fucking time when he's about to reveal something huge. Arstan even tells her about Dragons and how when the Dragons were chained up they didn't grow larger or stronger. So then Dany chains her Dragons up in Meereen...

And not ONE SINGLE thing Tyrion did all story advanced the plot in any meaningful way. We are just as lost in this convoluted cavalcade of events and happenings as ever. NONE of Tyrion’s actions fits with any OTHER part of Tyrion’s actions; they are just a random collection of events disguised as advancement.

In one sentence to Fake Aegon, Tyrion manages to convince the foolish boy to set sail for Westeros, instead of meeting out Dany. Tyrion changes the entire dynamic of the story right there. Instead of Aegon riding to see Dany and try to unite her to ride to Westeros together, Golden Company, Unsullied, and Dragons, he abandons her and rides straight for Griffin's Roost. This even causes Varys to come out of the shadows and start killing people in King's Landing before they realize that those sellswords belong to Aegon.

Tyrion certainly does something and does it in a sentence. Yet I agree that the rest of his chapters are wastes of time and advance the plot forward very little. If Tyrion had reached Dany and started training Dragons. If he counseled her to invade Westeros. Or something at least...I might argue that Tyrion does something meaningful. But beyond getting Fake Aegon to invade Westeros he just eats a huge amount of chapters.

When will we start to see resolution? When will we get some pay-off for our intellectual investment? When will these divergent characters and their disparate story-lines begin to come together? When will conflict be resolved? When will we know where this story is going? ADwD does nothing to answer these questions; it just gives us more questions.

By the way the above quoted post has been +1'd quite a few times indicating that clearly people are dissatisfied with ADWD.