[ADwD Spoilers] Well That Was Disappointing

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

My wife finished reading it, and one of the first things she said to me was that she didn't see why Tyrion had to be in the book at all past when he leaves Griff. And that makes me sad, because I largely agree with that.

Tyrion's chapters are some of the worst of the lot in the book. Very little happens, and what does happen he remains largely passive to. It's the worst of traveloguing and it makes me especially annoyed because...it's Tyrion. Tyrion's chapters have always been entertaining. These were not.

If you had told me that I would love Theon's chapters and be bored with Tyrion's before the book, i would have laughed at you. But that's what happened.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

I didn't say POV character, I said "established character", as in being important to the overall story. Not did I ever say I actually think Jon is dead (For the record, I don't, his scene was rather vague and that normally means there is going to be a twist), I am just annoyed that people still throw these tantrums.

OK. How is getting stabbed four times (at least) vague? He got stabbed in the stomach which is pretty much a mortal blow by itself. He got between the shoulder blades which is also a fatal wound. He lost all feeling and didn't even feel the fourth (and probably not last) stab.

Now, if you want to claim he lives on in Ghost, I'll agree to that. That pretty much seems what the Prologue set us up for. But as a human, Jon Snow is dead.

[wolfbird]

He got between the shoulder blades which is also a fatal wound. He lost all feeling and didn't even feel the fourth (and probably not last) stab.

I just thought of something...

Did the knife get him in the spine? What if he come back but paralysed worse than Bran?

I don't think it's likely, but ugh...

[Faint]

Starting from AFFC through ADWD, whose arc got finished?

Yes: Quentyn

No: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Jamie, Asha, Victarion, Barristan, Melisandre, Aeron, Euron.

Not really: Cersei, Davos, UnCat, Brienne

Sort of: Bran, Arya

I have to disagree here.

With respect to Quentyn, I agree, his arc was completed.

That said, I think Theon's arc was completed as well even though I was dying to see what happens next with him and Asha (but that's the point, their arc to take back the Iron Islands will be a new arc). Likewise, Asha's arc of trying to claim rule over the Ironborn by herself has also ended. In other words, Theon and Asha had individual arcs which completed and have now merged into a new shared arc.

Daenerys' arc has also come to a close, in my opinion, because she basically acknowledged in her final chapter that she wasn't going to get her way in Meereen. Her silly fantasy is over. Whatever happens now, it won't be the same storyline again. You can argue, however, that this storyline dragged too long -- but that's a different category of criticism.

Jon's arc sort of completed. The "kill the boy" refrain finally came true -- but I'm not going to count it because it ended at the wrong point. Silly cliffhangers are stupid. We should have gotten his next chapter inside of Ghost or the next Melisandre chapter.

I don't mind where he left off with Cersei but her two chapters should have been in AFfC -- like I said, I hate silly cliffhangers. They detract from the story.

Brienne, Jaime and Catelyn are part of an ongoing storyline, and I have nothing against that per say, but including the single Jaime chapter in ADwD was simply unexcusable. If ever a chapter should have been in AFfC, this was it. And it would have gotten rid of the silly cliffhanger that was Brienne's last POV chapter. See a theme here? I f*cking hate stupid cliffhangers.

Lastly, as for Tyrion, I can make a pretty good case that he completed an arc as well. He stopped feeling sorry for himself, stopped contemplating suicide, and got himself to a point where he is no longer a passive actor in his own life. Even so, I have to say, his last chapter in ADwD is one of the weaker last chapters in the entire series.

As for the others, I agree, their arcs have not been completed but you can't complete every arc in every book. So I have nothing against it.

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Starting from AFFC through ADWD, whose arc got finished?

Yes: Quentyn

No: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Jamie, Asha, Victarion, Barristan, Melisandre, Aeron, Euron.

Not really: Cersei, Davos, UnCat, Brienne

Sort of: Bran, Arya

While I certainly think there were problems with the book, I don't see this list as even vaguely accurate. Arcs may not have been completed the way you wanted them completed, but that's not the same as saying they weren't completed at all.

Jon: He tried to be the Lord Commander and got stabbed for his efforts. Even assuming he comes back, I doubt it will be in the same role. At a turning point, arc over.

Dany: She tried to be the humanitarian queen and failed thoroughly. I doubt she's coming back into power in Meereen. At a turning point, arc over.

Tyrion: Got over a lot of his emo-ness, finally returning to be the schemer by the end. Arc might not be over, but a lot of progress was made.

Theon: Turned into Reek and back again. At a turning point, arc over.

Jamie: Finally chose not to run to Cersei. At a turning point, arc over.

Asha, Vic, Aeron, Euron: None of these characters have been enough of a focus to have an arc yet really. Like Aegon and Connington, they're being positioned for the second half of the series.

Barristan: Either never had an arc to begin with or is incomplete because he had to wait for Dany to make progress.

Mel: What arc? She's a plot device so far.

Cersei: Abandoned, humiliated, broken. At a turning point, arc over.

Davos: In progress, in as much as he has an arc.

UnCat: Barely appeared in the last two books.

Brienne: Used more as a device to check in on people since leaving Jaime.

Bran: Not likely to be the same character he has been until now. At a turning point, arc over.

Arya: Still in the middle of a transformation, so in progress.

Plot arcs certainly haven't been resolved, which is what I think many are complaining about (and I agree on). But if the goal was to complete character arcs and move people into the roles and attitudes they need in the future, I think GRRM accomplished that.

[ipsuel]

I'm one of such people. I've read first 4 books (for the first and last time for now) less than a month ago (started GoT when 4th episode of GoT was released) so I didn't wait more than 30 days and I'm really disappointed with the book not because I've waited long (I didn't) but because almost nothing happened. Everything is so thinned down that a summary would take like 5 pages and you would know every little detail (almost). That says something. And the worst thing is that Martin doesn't even want to acknowledge there are lots of disappointed fans. On his blog all we can read is that the book is being highly praised everywhere and that it sells so well. More negative comments are being deleted from his blog also which annoys me. And I'm not talking about ranting but pointing out some things that could be done better.

I never liked Dany and I'm not the only one so I seriously doubt there would be more pissed people than are now.

I, too, did not wait at all. I finished AFfC just a few days before ADwD. While I do have some praise for a *few* chapters, (the Bran, Reek, Arya chapters mainly) -- overall, I am also highly disappointed. It was, primarily, a snooze-fest.

The only saving grace for me is this board, having fun reading the theories, and trying to figure some things out. I actually have figured out that I like *that element* better than either AFfC or ADwD. In fact, ppl I've recommended it to, I've told to just stop at book 3. Sad but true.

I literally forced myself thru Dany's chapters, and honestly, stopped reading anything that wasn't straight-up dialogue. (I knew if I missed anything great, I'd find out here -- but guess what? I didn't. I just saved myself time and even more disappointment).

I was getting seriously bored with Tyrion, too (and he's one of my faves!).

But mainly, the Quentyn thing just pissed me off. 90% of it was unnecessary, and gawd, so boring to boot!

Could I write it better? Hell, no--but I'm not the one having fans wait 6 years + and collecting money for my writing.

Will I read the next one? Probably, if only to make all this time I've spent pay off in the end. But will I pay for the next one? Not a chance. I'll borrow it or DL it.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

I enjoyed the book overall, but that isn't to say I didn't have problems with it. I think a lot of things could have been changed or cut out, in both this book and AFFC.

One of my main problems was poor choice in what POVs to include.

- Quentyn should not have been a POV. The only important thing he does is to die by dragontaming, and that could have been showed through Barristan's eyes. His other POV chapters could have gone towards showing us the " major sequences" that were moved to TWOW instead.

- Likewise, Jaime's ADWD chapter should have been either saved for TWOW or put in AFFC.

- Cersei's chapters should have been saved for TWOW.

- Dany and Tyrion's storylines: I understand what GRRM was trying to do in terms of character development, but there was a lot of fat there that could have been trimmed.

- If these parts had been cut/moved and instead we had gotten Jon's resurrection and the battle of Winterfell, which is what my guess as to what the other major sequence moved to TWOW was, then I think the book would have been better for it. Maybe show Dany further along as well, possibly end with her taking control of the khalasar?

[Dragons Dancing]

Good review by iceberg ink today that compares the first 600 pages as being on a barge and the last 350 pages as being in a speed boat. So true.

http://icebergink.blogspot.com/2011/07/book-review-dance-with-dragons-by.html

This was another middle (mostly filler) book. It's redeeming qualities were that we got to see some of the favorite characters either grow or mostly devolve, learn a bit more history, give us more speculations, find out who the 3 eyed crow is and be captivated by a horror story and cheer when the tortured victim survives.

IMHO, If GRRM wanted Jon dead he would be dead. Like Brienne and others, Jon will be back but will he be human, that is the question for me? Dany finally got to ride her dragon. We now know the North remembers and can look forward to more Frey pie scenes. I was disappointed over and over, BUT I will stick with the series. There were enough interesting new twists to hold my interest. As much as mostof ASoI&F readers hate the constant cliff hangers, this is GRRM's modis operendi. You have to accept the bad with the good to follow the story. Next book I may wait and read in the library before buying used rather than add to the first day sales UNLESS the readers love it.

[The Stranger]

My wife finished reading it, and one of the first things she said to me was that she didn't see why Tyrion had to be in the book at all past when he leaves Griff. And that makes me sad, because I largely agree with that.

I faced similar embarrassment from my gf. she's read about ten thousand fiction books in her life, and despite her criticism that fantasy is a silly genre [newsflash: it is], after finishing GoT she consented to reading the rest of the series. she enjoyed the first trilogy, kinda shrugged at the fourth book, aaand...has considered reading the fifth book kind of a Batan death march. she reads fiction at about 110 pages/hr, and she STILL can't stand it.

we proceeded to have an argument, where I again explained some of the conventions of fantasy [worldbuilding, travel, mystical secrets etc] and she responded, sitting in front of her bookshelves containing several hundred pieces of legitimate award-winning fiction "No. it's just bad storytelling." I'm not as well-read as her by a longshot, but I carried on the good fight with "but, you have to understand--" "No. good storytellers don't need nine hundred pages to produce this. Martin just failed."

sigh. sometimes people just don't get it. or something.

[Raksha the Demon]

My wife finished reading it, and one of the first things she said to me was that she didn't see why Tyrion had to be in the book at all past when he leaves Griff. And that makes me sad, because I largely agree with that.

Tyrion's chapters are some of the worst of the lot in the book. Very little happens, and what does happen he remains largely passive to. It's the worst of traveloguing and it makes me especially annoyed because...it's Tyrion. Tyrion's chapters have always been entertaining. These were not.

If you had told me that I would love Theon's chapters and be bored with Tyrion's before the book, i would have laughed at you. But that's what happened.

I too found Theon's chapters to be far more compelling than Tyrion's, despite my having despised Theon in the past and rather liking Tyrion in prior books. Theon was in the position of being a desperate position, nowhere to go but up, there was tension and drama both in his own situation and in the lives of the Boltons and the people they were (mostly) destroying; and then poor Jeyne is brought in, an innocent brought to face a terrible fate, and Theon actually pulls off a good deed. It was stronger writing than Tyrion running around Essos being clever and wishing he could rape and kill his sister. Though I liked Tyrion's journey more than Dany; her time in ADWD only became interesting when Drogon landed in the arena, then, by Rhlorr, we had a plot!

[Kalnak the Magnificent]

To be clear my wife is a boarder (skylark was her board name) and she has been to more cons than most, tended bar at the parties, and designed multiple con tshirts including the famous nights watch logo.

It's not like she doesn't get it, or get fantasy. Or dislike grrm. She just thought tyrions story was redundant and boring.

[ipsuel]

It seems many people believe the book overall should have been heavily trimmed, (brevity can be your friend, writers ;-)) -- and I agree. However, my aggravation lies as much with the editor. Why on earth didn't the editor 'edit' more? I blame GRRM, yes--but I also lay blame on his editors. Big time. I think s/he/they failed him.

[The Stranger]

To be clear my wife is a boarder (skylark was her board name) and she has been to more cons than most, tended bar at the parties, and designed multiple con tshirts including the famous nights watch logo.

It's not like she doesn't get it, or get fantasy. Or dislike grrm. She just thought tyrions story was redundant and boring.

haha, fear not Kal, I wasn't trying to besmirch your wife's good name in nerdly circles.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

See, I think Quentyn's having a POV is to blame for a lot of the disapproval of Tyrion's plotline.

Three out of Quentyn's four POV chapters are " Quentyn travels the Free Cities trying to get to Meereen."

Tyrion is also traveling the Free Cities trying to get to Meereen.

I think Quentyn's POV existing undermined the world-building that Martin was trying to do, making it less appealing to the reader because it felt redundant.

The feeling of redundancy created a situation where the reader loses focus on what all of this traveling is supposed to do for Tyrion's character development: Snap him out of his state of being a bitter drunk who feels sorry for himself all the time.

[sToNED_CAT]

I don't think the book was that dissapointing. Surely it was not as good as the first 3, but significantly better than AFFC. The whole northern storyline was pretty amazing (well except that last Jon chapter), but eastern chapters were quite boring indeed.

I think it was a mistake to introduce Quentyn and young Griff. It would have been much better to cut them out completely and trim Tyrion and Dany chapters + some staff from AFFC and there would be no need for 2 books.

[Reggie]

there was just too much of a drop in quality after the first three books. it's really too bad. GRRM could have separated himself from many of the other FF authors with this series.

[Davos' Middle Finger]

How much would have needed to have been cut, do you guys think, in order to have merged AFFC and ADWD?

I'm curious as to what people think.

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't think the book was that dissapointing. Surely it was not as good as the first 3, but significantly better than AFFC. The whole northern storyline was pretty amazing (well except that last Jon chapter), but eastern chapters were quite boring indeed.

I think it was a mistake to introduce Quentyn and young Griff. It would have been much better to cut them out completely and trim Tyrion and Dany chapters + some staff from AFFC and there would be no need for 2 books.

The revelation of Young Griff as the supposed Aegon Targaryen was seriously underwhelming. Maybe GRRM wanted it that way, but it is a significant development, one of the few in ADWD, whether the kid is actually Rhaegar and Elia's son or not; and could have been written with more zing. Maybe GRRM wanted to soft-pedal the revelation; he could be planning on having the kid die in future books (my guess) and/or being revealed as an unwitting fake.

[AutumnEvenings]

The editor clearly failed me. "He was not wrong" (or 'she was not wrong') popped up multiple times in every chapter and it made me want to scream (or tug my braid...)

Also, seriously? Doesn't calling a book "A Dance With Dragons" imply...you know, a lot of dragons, and them maneuvering either themselves or, more likely, events of the world around them? Instead of spending the first 900 pages locked in a pit and not doing anything at all?

I was annoyed at the sea storms and snow storms holding up progress, but mainly annoyed with the dragons-in-pit crap. It was one big ploy to keep Dany sitting on her butt so people can come find her (but not too quickly...) and I was not pleased.

I guess the blatant plot devices (Ghost is locked in my room! See, it's snowing! There's no wind for the ship! We're waiting for our other ships to come!) really interferred with my ability to enjoy the good stuff, like Arya and Bran's chapters.

(Also, who gives a crap about Victarion, seriously?)

[-eX-]

I think Quentyn was a POV character simply out of necessity . GRRM has said before that he kind of regrets that his characters are spread so far apart from each other that they are really interact with each other. The result is exactly this, the existence of " throw away" characters, that only exists to provide information about a part of the story, out of reach for other characters. Kind of like an extended prologue POV. To get some kind of information about his journey, he had to be a POV character, because there was no other character in his proximity who could have done it for him.

That said, this is the result when you introduce even semi important characters on short notice. Imagine Quentyn's journey would have started last book, parallel to the other Dorne chapters. Imagine the speculations and theories about him and Dany we would have had, the possibilities about the Dorne-Targaryen alliance. His death would have had a much bigger impact.