[ADWD Spoilers] Jon, Stannis, Melisandre

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

My crackpot theory:

I believe if Jon wil come back it will be through warging Ghost and then warging into some other Human (Mel's bit about man -> wolf -> man). We'll never have Jon back as we had him - the earthly vessel of Jon Snow will rot after his soul enters Ghost.

So, how will he come back and become Azor Ahai?

He will warg into Stannis! Hence, Melisandre's visions of Stannis and Jon being AA at various times were always correct! It was too crazy for her to fully understand why, since she probably did not anticipate warging in her calculations.

[Clash]

My crackpot theory:

I believe if Jon wil come back it will be through warging Ghost and then warging into some other Human (Mel's bit about man -> wolf -> man). We'll never have Jon back as we had him - the earthly vessel of Jon Snow will rot after his soul enters Ghost.

A man recognisable as Jon Snow if you read the prophecy fully and not just the last bit.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half- seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him... Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow...

So she still sees him as he is, not as Stannis.

So, how will he come back and become Azor Ahai?

He will warg into Stannis! Hence, Melisandre's visions of Stannis and Jon being AA at various times were always correct! It was too crazy for her to fully understand why, since she probably did not anticipate warging in her calculations.

She doesn't see Stannis in her later visions, but sees him in her earlier ones. All that means is that Stannis is her first 'port of call' who then brings her to Jon Snow, not that one morphs into the other :rolleyes:

[MtnLion]

Though I am not sure that GRRM would do it, I feel it would be the most appropriate and touching scene that could be summoned. Mel has never raised anyone, and may be incapable of it, just as Thoros was capable. I believe that Jon will be dead for an extended period. His body will be kept in the ice cells, and his body "will lose all memory of warmth". There is one who carries the fire of life, in Westeros. What a touching scene for Catelyn to kiss her bastard boy, goodbye, believing that all of her natural children were dead. Thus giving her life and raising Jon.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

A man recognisable as Jon Snow if you read the prophecy fully and not just the last bit.

So she still sees him as he is, not as Stannis.

Does she? We don't really know what she sees. Other than she says "all I see is Snow". And later that she saw Jon as "a man then a wolf than a man." She doesn't say he was the same man, just a man.

She doesn't see Stannis in her later visions, but sees him in her earlier ones. All that means is that Stannis is her first 'port of call' who then brings her to Jon Snow, not that one morphs into the other :rolleyes:

LOL I said it was crackpot, I don't think it's the most likely outcome (I think it's possible though), no need to roll your eyes at me.

But I do think your interpretation of the last part is definitely up for debate. Who's to say that the visions of Jon Snow were definitely "real" if the ones of Stannis were "false"? If Mel sees people that are just there to get her in the right place, it could be she just needed to see Jon to keep her on the wall until the real AA (Dany??) arrives.

[Whatever]

I remember reading when she and the rebels found out Jon Snow was made Lord Commander of the nights watch she believe he had something to do with the red wedding... like a reward by the Lannisters... What a witch and horrible stepmother to have.

cat was dead by then. This is what the blackfish said to jaime in feast, but many people think he was just trying to deceive jaime - because 2 of his men went to the wall and a lot of people on the boards believe he went either with them or to the vale.

[Clash]

Does she? We don't really know what she sees. Other than she says "all I see is Snow". And later that she saw Jon as "a man then a wolf than a man." She doesn't say he was the same man, just a man.

In the prophecy she sees 'his long face' which indicates that her visions are... for the want of a better word... visual ;) So when she sees him as a man, it's his features that make him Jon Snow not some other input.

LOL I said it was crackpot, I don't think it's the most likely outcome (I think it's possible though), no need to roll your eyes at me.

But I do think your interpretation of the last part is definitely up for debate. Who's to say that the visions of Jon Snow were definitely "real" if the ones of Stannis were "false"? If Mel sees people that are just there to get her in the right place, it could be she just needed to see Jon to keep her on the wall until the real AA (Dany??) arrives.

I don't think the visions of Stannis were false, just her interpretation of them. We know little of her earlier visions only that she admits that she can be wrong in her interpretations. She could well be taking steps towards AA and it could be that Jon is another of those steps, but given the timespan it's unlikely that any further steps need be taken.

[Ninotchka]

I think the only reason for Martin to give us that Melisandre chapter is precisely to show us her visions. She has been unable of interpret them correctly, so far, and seeing them we know that: she says textually "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai and he shows me only Snow". She sees Azor Ahai, but isn't capable of understand it, just as she was not able to comprehend that her vision of a young girl arriving to the Wall was not Arya but Alys Karstark.

Martin shows us her vision so we can see them first hand and understand (or at least interpret differently) what Melisandre cannot: that Jon is Azor Ahai (hey, what more do you need? R'hllor almost SAID so! :tantrum: ), that he will warg into Ghost and come back (first a man, then a wolf, then a man again. And yes, by the way, after that she sees him as himself, not as any other human entity :uhoh: ). Or perharps I'm doing the same mistake as her, and this is not the real-accurate interpretation, but for what she (we) saw in the flames, it seems to be more apropriate, don't you agree? :unsure:

If this was not the intention of this entire chapter, then I don't know why Martin created a new PoV just to say "Hey, I'm not that bad" and then forgot her :shocked:

[Fleur de Lys]

This thread started by Ran and last discussed August 3:

Posted 16 July 2011 - 04:41 AM

Of course, it's a looney idea. If Jon comes back, there'll be a cost. There's always a cost, and it needs to be real. I think he'll be rejected at all sides, wildlings and Night's Watch alike, and I suspect he may end up being an outcast who'll end up playing the part of the Last Hero, striking out north into the Heart of Winter to try and do something desperate and maybe redeeming, maybe guided by Bloodraven and Bran..."

Thus spake Ran. (not Black Crow - who nevertheless agrees with him)

I think you may have the right of it--Bran's help makes the most sense as device to bring House Starks back together again while defending the realm from the Others/White Walkers scourge. Jon could be "resurrected" as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell, as Robb (and Stannis) had intended, and take back his castle. Zombie Cat won't be happy about it at all either, which makes for good plotlines, but the truth of his parentage could ultimately soften her position.

To imagine the direction Jon's storyline may go, then be completely blown away when he actually stays dead and gone--I will be devastated!

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

that he will warg into Ghost and come back (first a man, then a wolf, then a man again. And yes, by the way, after that she sees him as himself, not as any other human entity :uhoh: ). Or perharps I'm doing the same mistake as her, and this is not the real-accurate interpretation, but for what she (we) saw in the flames, it seems to be more apropriate, don't you agree? :unsure:

Hmm I stand corrected on that point then, I didn't notice at the time if it was that specific.

Still, I am wondering how that would work? We have no indication that wargs can enter non-living things aka dead bodies. And we learned from Varamyr that once he left his body, there was no going back... So how would this work for Jon if he's really supposed to go back into the same body?

[Ninotchka]

Well, I imagine that Varamyr couldn't come back to his own body because his body was dead. But what would happen if a warg dies, travels to his companion-pet-whatever (in this case, Ghost) and then his previous (self) body is resurrected? I dunno, but maybe Varamyr couldn't take that in count because the only resurrected bodies he had seen were those of the wights (that aren't human no more). If the body of a dead warg is given back his life completely, who can say that his mind-soul, currently in the body of his companion-pet, wouldn't travel back to it? Does that make any sense at all? :shocked:

[StarkBlack21]

It's interesting. What if it was UNCAT who brought Jon back to life? And she gave her own life to do it? It would be touching and ironic.

[tsantsa]

Well, I imagine that Varamyr couldn't come back to his own body because his body was dead. But what would happen if a warg dies, travels to his companion-pet-whatever (in this case, Ghost) and then his previous (self) body is resurrected? I dunno, but maybe Varamyr couldn't take that in count because the only resurrected bodies he had seen were those of the wights (that aren't human no more). If the body of a dead warg is given back his life completely, who can say that his mind-soul, currently in the body of his companion-pet, wouldn't travel back to it? Does that make any sense at all? :shocked:

This is what I have been wrestling with. I have to go back and read it, but I am sure that Varamyr stated that the man who trained him also said that once your body dies and you transfer to you animal you are stuck there to slowly be absorbed into the animal. If that is the case, we are going to see AA as a wolf fighting the Others...which I DO NOT care to read.

I have a question: if only death pays for life (regarding a possible resurrection of Jon, what sacrifice was given to revive Beric numerous times?

[Whatever]

now that i think about it... nothin'

I guess it was b/c beric had been dead for, like, 10 minutes.

ETA: When beric tries to bring back cat (dead for 3 days) he dies

[Ninotchka]

This is what I have been wrestling with. I have to go back and read it, but I am sure that Varamyr stated that the man who trained him also said that once your body dies and you transfer to you animal you are stuck there to slowly be absorbed into the animal. If that is the case, we are going to see AA as a wolf fighting the Others...which I DO NOT care to read.

Same here :crying: but... Varamyr's master or whatever also said him that he couldn't eat human flesh nor warg into a human body, and we see that Bran does both with no further thoughts. Maybe his trainer wasn't the most skilled of all the wargs. Maybe there are many things Varamyr didn't know/thought impossible or forbidden that can be done, and Jon is powerful enough for doing them. And if he counts with Melisandre's help... well, we'll see :uhoh:

[tsantsa]

Same here :crying: but... Varamyr's master or whatever also said him that he couldn't eat human flesh nor warg into a human body, and we see that Bran does both with no further thoughts. Maybe his trainer wasn't the most skilled of all the wargs. Maybe there are many things Varamyr didn't know/thought impossible or forbidden that can be done, and Jon is powerful enough for doing them. And if he counts with Melisandre's help... well, we'll see :uhoh:

Yeah but Bran did that with his body alive. Jon's is dead, presumably. Varamyr hasn't warged into another human after his body died, or not that we know of...

[Ninotchka]

Yeah, sure, what I was trying to say is that maybe Varamyr doesn't know everything about warging, because he seem to be less skilled than a boy without a fullfilled train and to know only what his trainer said him. And maybe (just maybe) there is a possibility, with external help (Melisandre) and a body newly alive, to warg again in your own body :uhoh:

Sorry, I can't explain myself very well, my English is not enough :bawl:

[Narea]

Same here :crying: but... Varamyr's master or whatever also said him that he couldn't eat human flesh nor warg into a human body, and we see that Bran does both with no further thoughts. Maybe his trainer wasn't the most skilled of all the wargs. Maybe there are many things Varamyr didn't know/thought impossible or forbidden that can be done, and Jon is powerful enough for doing them. And if he counts with Melisandre's help... well, we'll see :uhoh:

Varamyr's teacher said that wargs can't eat human flesh nor warg into humans that in way that says that they shouldn't not that they are unable to. Only reason why Varamyr struggled for control of that woman was that he was dying and was extremely weak. That Bran does both of them and that he keeps warging Hodor fully knowing how damaging it was to Hodor, only makes Bran extremely selfish and it is not something a potential champion of "light" should even consider doing (concerning warging into Stannis or anyone else). I don't mind Jon's character going grey as GRRM states, but warging humans is waaaay past grey.

That said I don't think warging is going to be Jon's way to survival and he's not going to come back via Mel's kiss of fire either. Seriously, I doubt he's dead at all.

[NotToday]

I don't get why so many people think of Mel is a sympathetic character. Pretty clear to me she is one of the bad guys because she serves an evil god.

I actually hate Mel and her Religion for the most part. She made the Queen into a fanatic and now the queen wants to convert eveyone to her stupid religion. Like when she told Jon that the wildlings have to accept Rhollor as their God if they wish to cross the wall.

But on the other extreme is Thoros of Myr. He seems to be very tolerant, and although he did convert his own merry band of followers, he doesnt seem to advocate "sacrificing unbelievers" like the Queen's men.

[NotToday]

Varamyr's teacher said that wargs can't eat human flesh nor warg into humans that in way that says that they shouldn't not that they are unable to. Only reason why Varamyr struggled for control of that woman was that he was dying and was extremely weak. That Bran does both of them and that he keeps warging Hodor fully knowing how damaging it was to Hodor, only makes Bran extremely selfish and it is not something a potential champion of "light" should even consider doing (concerning warging into Stannis or anyone else). I don't mind Jon's character going grey as GRRM states, but warging humans is waaaay past grey.

That said I don't think warging is going to be Jon's way to survival and he's not going to come back via Mel's kiss of fire either. Seriously, I doubt he's dead at all.

I think Bran was able to warg into Hodor more easily that Varamyr into that women was because Hodor was very simple minded. Humans are probably too strong and far more sentient than most animals making it difficult to fully control them. Though I agree that Bran was selfish about warging into Hodor; Hodor was big and strong while Bran was just a cripple boy.

One question, is there any mention in the book of anyone warging into Dragons?? If Dany comes to the Wall to help fight against the others (which would be the best way to fight them because the dragons can breath fire), then Jon might encounter them.

[Black Crow]

...I don't think warging is going to be Jon's way to survival and he's not going to come back via Mel's kiss of fire either. Seriously, I doubt he's dead at all.

I think that's the point. On a couple of other threads its been established that Jon's wounds as recorded are not necessarily fatal, while earlier Bran learned to Warg while in a coma after his own not quite fatal injuries. We're told that Jon is an extremely powerful Warg but yet he's never had the chance to properly develop those powers. Laid up in bed with his life despaired of as the saying goes is finally going to give him the chance to explore those latent powers.

As for Mel the Succubus, her POV chapter was indeed a good and very necessary opportunity to see what she actually sees in the fires as distinct from what she says she sees, but because those visions are not clear its down to us to interpret them as we see them rather than GRRM telling us the answers and in this case I think we need to distinguish between real time visions and prophesy.

Its commonly held in some quarters that because she sees a man (and she doesn't explicitly recognise him as Jon)turn into a wolf and back again, that Jon will escape his present predicament by warging into Ghost and then back into his own body after Mel has performed some of her foul magick. I on the other hand would ague that she's seeing in real time a man who has a link with a wolf and assumes its something symbolic because she doesn't know about warging.

Coming back then to Jon. There's a technical problem with warging into Ghost in that he'll be able to return to his own body once the shock has worn off, but as suggested above warging directly into a different body from Ghost rather than from his own body is a different matter entirely. Wargs at Jon's present level don't take over their host but simply see, hear and feel what they feel. If, as we assume, Jon wargs into Ghost as he falls flat on his face he isn't going to to be sitting there slashing his tail back and forth and growling about what he's going to do to Marsh as soon as somebody opens that damn door, he's going to be waiting for somebody to come in with the doggy bowl and hoping nobody will notice the puddle in the corner.

Revenge needs his own (original) body - the icy cold one without any fire magick.