[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Tyrion 2 - Spoilers for ADWD

[The_BlauerDragon]

I'm assuming that all of this info is coming from GRRM's website directly (unless there is another source that I must know of). Is there any place where one can find all of the spoiler chapters (at once) in their entirity (not just a summary)? I'd really like to read them in all their GRRM greatness...

[Halfhand]

I'm assuming that all of this info is coming from GRRM's website directly (unless there is another source that I must know of). Is there any place where one can find all of the spoiler chapters (at once) in their entirity (not just a summary)? I'd really like to read them in all their GRRM greatness...

Tower of the Hand has them. http://www.towerofthehand.com/books/105/excerpts.html

These four are the only ones that have actually been released. The others have just been read by Martin at various cons and gatherings, thus we only have summaries of those chapters.

[punkypickett]

This phrase has niggled at me for some time. Why single out Young Griff as someone who will like Tyrion?

Maybe Young Griff is also a dwarf.

This would also match up w/the theory of why Tyrion found clothes that fit him in Illyrio's manse.

[The Pale Griffin]

This is just my opinion as of right now because I cannot be bothered to look for quotes and it has been years since I read the books, I just popped in to check on updates.

Dragonglass is obsidian, which is hardened lava.It gets its name, dragonglass, since lava would resemble the breath of dragons in liquid form. The reason why its effective against the others would be its innate heat properties, but I don`t want to get to detailed on a couple of throwaway comments in a book.

Also there is volcanic activity around the remnants of Valyria, and if I remember correctly, Dragonstone has a dormant volcano on the island, which is why there are large quantities of dragonglass on the island.

I believe the statement that Young Griff would like Tyrion is sarcastic, as in Young Griff doesn`t like snarky dwarves and they cannot wait to see what will happen when he meets Young Griff.

Once again, not speaking from canon, just my opinion.

[nategator]

Thank you. Someday, I am going to work my way into SSM and read everything. I keep rereading trying to find Bloodraven and Bittersteel expalined in the series.

Read tMK. Pretty much after that and Sworn Sword, there is little more that needs to be explained about Bloodraven and Bittersteel.

SEMI-SPOILERS FOR THE MYSTERY KNIGHT

After reading tMK, I've become very skeptical about the GC being anything but antagonistic towards Dany. Bittersteel/Blackfyre faction seem hard core anti-Targ and their entire claim rests on challenging the other side's right to rule. Imagine that you've grown up thinking that you got screwed out of your birthright, you have the magic sword as proof your side of the family should have had the throne, you're feeling vidicated and hopeful that the bad guys got killed off by a bunch of upstarts, and just when you are about ready to set things to rights, a Targ whore appears out of nowhere with a bunch of dragons (when your side had lost the second Blackfyre rebellion before it started just trying to get a damn egg) and is marching towards Westeros. Ya, I'd break my contract and move to kill the ***** and claim the dragons too.

This is aSoIaF, people don't let things go...just ask Tyrion (Tysha), Tywin (wife), Robb (Ned), Cat (Robb), Littlefinger (Cat), and Arya (too numerous to recall).

P.S. as to the Griff comment, dwarves also play a role in tMK ;-)

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I just noticed that my confident prediction of three years that Doran made a deal with the Golden Company in advance appears to be entirely undercut by the Quentyn chapter that GRRM read at a con last fall, where Quentyn appeared to know nothing of any such plan. Oops!

[urizen]

I just noticed that my confident prediction of three years that Doran made a deal with the Golden Company in advance appears to be entirely undercut by the Quentyn chapter that GRRM read at a con last fall, where Quentyn appeared to know nothing of any such plan. Oops!

What? When did GRRM read a Quentyn chapter?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

What? When did GRRM read a Quentyn chapter?

Look at the Fargo ValleyCon thread on the BWB forum. The last post is a summary of various reports re: the chapter. It's kind of a mystery to me why the chapter never made it over here. (Although in truth, there's not a lot there to spark discussion by itself.)

[urizen]

Look at the Fargo ValleyCon thread on the BWB forum. The last post is a summary of various reports re: the chapter. It's kind of a mystery to me why the chapter never made it over here. (Although in truth, there's not a lot there to spark discussion by itself.)

Thanks. An interesting read despite no real action..

[King Bronn l]

And is Illyrio's gift to "young Griff" a sword? Perhaps a legendary valyrian blade--either blackfire or dark sister?

Ooooh what if it is a blade, and the blade is Brightroar? That would be a nice little piece of drama.

[nategator]

Perhaps it was simply imprudent to conquer Westeros. Launching a full scal war and invasion against a heavily populated continent so far away would be a nightmare simply from a logistics viewpoint.

Like, say Henry VII's landing in England with only an exile and mercenary force against Richard III. Yep, totally a nightmare.

[History of Westeros]

Exactly. I cannot subscribe to the A Dayne is alive theory. Because I believe that the bodies are covered with the stone from the tower of joy.

And yet. Some people say a prayer and place a stone when they start a journey. Some Native Americans place a stone in a sacred spot. So, some cairns are different.

I was merely suggesting a crackpot theory. Sorry.

You are correct. The # of cairns can't possibly be the final word on this.

We all know that it wasn't just Ned, his 6 friends and the 3 KG. There was Lyanna, who had a child. There had to be other people there. I'm not suggesting other warriors, but someone else there could've been killed. The biggest tell that there were other people there is *that they pulled down the ToJ to make the cairns*. I'd like to sell a bridge to anyone that believes that Ned and HR did this alone. No chance Lyanna didn't have a nursemaid and other servants. No, I'm not suggesting they built a cairn for a nursemaid, just showing how that there were clearly more than 10 men + Lyanna and baby.

Also, as you suggest, the extra cairn could be symbolic.. or fake.

Note that I don't think this proves AD is alive, just that the # of cairns proves nothing whatsoever. It's evidence, to be sure. But far from a killing blow to the theory.

[History of Westeros]

Like, say Henry VII's landing in England with only an exile and mercenary force against Richard III. Yep, totally a nightmare.

He said "nightmare from a logistics standpoint". While I disagree with his premise, you missed the point. Hauling supplies from Valyria would absolutely be difficult. Yes, I know they wouldn't do it that way, but the statement that it would be a nightmare is essentially technically correct. "The best kind of correct!"

Henry VII got lucky, too.

[Jonias Snow]

Thanks Azizal for commenting on this post, I did not know that this particular reading chapter existed. Well I know now that Tyrion is heading for Dany with Illyrio as an escort till the river, and they are meeting up with a band of mercenaries under Illyrio's employ who are apparently in a race with the GC to Dany, but Illyrio's in no hurry as there are three heads to the dragon. That the head of the mercenary group is Griff a exile from Westeros and he has a (son) Young Griff, and that Illyrio has a gift (sword) for the lad.

I am still of the opinion that Illyrio is up to no good concerning Dany, he mentioned about considering killing Viserys and taking Dany but she was like a dragon egg. This statement confirms my belief that Illyrio meant for Viserys to die in the Dothraki Sea along with Dany, as he felt she wouldn't last long with Drogo. He didn't kill them earlier, because like a good merchant he was waiting for an opportunity to make some profit or gain favors off them both.

He needs Tyrion, either as a spy in Dany's camp (since Mormont was booted) or even better as a counselor. I don't think Tyrion is one of the heads (at least in Illyrio's mind), I believe it is Young Griff, whom he has an important gift for and Elder Griff is in a hurry to get to Dany. Griff obviously has in his possession one of the heads and since he and the mercenaries knew nothing about Tyrion, the head must be Young Griff, Illyrio talks about him considerably. If this is the case, Young Griff either is R+L or some other Targ, and Griff just might be Dayne as Ned states that Arthur would have killed him if Howland hadn't intervened, he then stops talking and gets sullen (this to me gets into the "Promise Me, Ned" territory. So nowhere does it mention The Sword died, perhaps Reed just incapacitates him, and Lyanna's request is for Ned to spare the child and let Dayne flee with him. If this is the case then Jon=N+A. Then again, maybe Ned and Arthur (in disuise) went to Starfall, but Ashara already killed herself but left Ned's child. Ned switched R+L with N+A, and gave him to Dayne to take into exile, so Griff believes that Young Griif is R+L, but is really N+A, while Jon is really R+L and the real dragon head.

More later, have to go, have fun over this theory

[Liliedhe]

@Jonias: I basically thought the same (and kudos to you for saying it!).

Young Griff is the son of R+L, and Ned sent him to old Griff - Jon Connington, Rhaegar's best friend, who was already in exile. Connington faked his death (which was probably no harder than sending Varys a message who then said in the next council meeting: "oh, btw, Jon Connington drank himself to death.") It seems that Varys and illyrio believe that Young Griff is one dragon head, and that among the golden company might be another (like, a Blackfyre descendant).

Since GRRM insisted that the journey of Ned from Dorne to Winterfell after the Tower of Joy took "many months" he might have brought the baby to Connington himself - or Ashara faked her death, too and took it over. After all, her body was never found.^^

This theory has one big advantage over the baby Aegon theories, because Aegon was Rhaegar's heir and next in line in the succession. Not Viserys. Why back the crazy boy when you have the true heir? And why back Dany, a WOMAN after him? Because the other person they have, young Griff, is a Targ bastard, not a legitimate heir. He can work easily as Dany's husband, making the claim even stronger if she maybe legitimizes him, but he has no chance for the throne on his own.

[Jonias Snow]

Well back, and after reading more of this post I am joining the supporters of Griff being Jon Connington and Griff Jr. the child of R+L. I forgot about Connington's House Sigil being the Griffin, so that just about nails it.

So we have Lyanna giving birth to a child and the gossip about Ashara being pregant and giving birth to Ned's son Jon. That is two mysterious births, and since we know Jon is one of the two, either he is N+A or R+L which leaves us with one missing child.

Lets list Jon Connington's history to see if he might be tutoring Rhaegar Jr.

1.) House Sigil is Griffin (Griff)

2.) Hand of King Aerys (Capable Leader)

3.) Never married (No documented children)

4.) Excellent swordsman

5.) Exiled from Westeros after losing Battle of the Bells

6.) Rumored to be in the Free Cities

7.) Rumored to have drunk himself to death (Spread by Illyrio/Varys)

8.) Acquaintance of Ashara Dayne

9.) Best friends with Rhaegar

Since he was last seen across the narrow sea and only rumored dead, if alive he would use a alias (Griff).

Best friends with Rhaegar (would not hesitate to care for and raise his child).

Acquaintance and perhaps friend of Ashara (someone was needed to take the child to Jon Connington).

Connington being an excellent fighter and capable leader could easily gather and command a force of mercenaries.

So I guess the theory therefore is that Ned travels to Starfall to give Dawn to Ashara, upon reaching Starfall, he finds she has given birth to their son. He then confides to her of his marriage to Catelyn out of duty to his House and the lineage of the child in his possession. They then probably come to the conclusion together that Jon Connington would be the best option to raise Rheagar/Lyanna's child. Ashara knowing she cannot be with Ned justs wants to leave Starfall and tells him if he agrees to raise their son she would take Lyanna's child to Connington. Ned trusts that Ashara would accomplish this task and therefore his promise to Lyanna would be kept and he would out of honor and love for her would raise their son in Winterfell. They fake her suicide and go their seperate ways.

If this theory holds up where then is Ashara since she would successfully have brought R+L's child to Connington to raise, could she still be with them, or does anyone see a clue concerning some female in the Free Cities that might point to Ashara.

[Liliedhe]

I'm not exactly convinced about Jon being Ashara's kid (read Davos 1 for why) but the rest makes quite a lot of sense, especially if you figure in the motivations of the conspirators and the fact that we haven't heard from a polygamous Targaryen marriage after Maegor the Cruel. Making it extremely likely that Rhaegar would not have gotten away with a second marriage.

[the average Other]

I believe that Old Griff is Jon Connington, but not that Young Griff is any Targ, illegitimate or otherwise. I think he's a good candidate for "mummer's dragon", though.

Here's something I found in Tyrion 1 that piqued my interest, and maybe could give a hint about Illyrio's plans concerning Young Griff (at least if you squint, and stretch, and like crack-pot). Tyrion is a guest in Magister Illyrio's house:

When he woke again, he was back in his bedchamber, drowning in the goosedown featherbed once more while a blond girl shook his shoulder. "My lord," she said, "your bath awaits. Magister Illyrio expects you at table within the hour."

Tyrion propped himself against the pillows, his head in his hands. "Do I dream, or do you speak the Common Tongue?"

"Yes, my lord. I was bought to please the king." She was blue-eyed and fair, young and willowy.

The obvious explanation is that she's talking about Viserys, but if memory serves Viserys slept with Doreah when he stayed at Illyrio's. Doreah was later given to Dany and eventually died in the desert, so this is another slave - and maybe another king?

[Lady Winter Rose]

Here's something I found in Tyrion 1 that piqued my interest, and maybe could give a hint about Illyrio's plans concerning Young Griff (at least if you squint, and stretch, and like crack-pot). Tyrion is a guest in Magister Illyrio's house:

The obvious explanation is that she's talking about Viserys, but if memory serves Viserys slept with Doreah when he stayed at Illyrio's. Doreah was later given to Dany and eventually died in the desert, so this is another slave - and maybe another king?

Another slave, same king. She is described blond and blue-eyed, as Doreah. Vyseris type obviously.

I do not understand why people think that Young Griff would be Mummers Dragon. It is already said that griffon would come with lion and Mummers Dragon with Sun's son.

[Ran]

It's an interpretation to suppose that that listing is necessarily pairing everyone up together with who they'll be arriving with.