Mezeh Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Perhaps it was simply imprudent to conquer Westeros. Launching a full scal war and invasion against a heavily populated continent so far away would be a nightmare simply from a logistics viewpoint. Aegon the First conquered Westeros with a very few men but with just three dragons. So it’s obvious that Valyria was able to conquer Westeros as well. The difference however that Aegon become a king of Westeros after his conquest and while Valyria was still on the map any valyrian ruler in Westeros would be treated as occupant. Dragons are good in sieges and major battles but useless against guerilla and rebellions. So to hold Westeros would be much more difficult and probably impossible task. As for Jorah Mormont and Grif he is surely not him! There are many arguments I will bring only one. Grif as we see him in spoiler is very well informed and involved into pro Targ plot for a long time. Mormont on his side obviously wasn’t even aware that such a plot existed that Varys was involved into it or even connected with Illirio! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urizen Posted August 24, 2006 Share Posted August 24, 2006 Griff has raised his own son to be a knight and he is called Young Griff. Illyrio assures Tyrion that Young Griff will like him. This phrase has niggled at me for some time. Why single out Young Griff as someone who will like Tyrion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealasaid Posted August 25, 2006 Share Posted August 25, 2006 Eh, Bittersteel. His real name was Aegor Rivers; His mother was a Bracken and his father was Aegon IV Targaryen, "The Unworthy"; This was the guy who had something like six mistresses and innumerable bastards. Of note were Aegon's three Great Bastards, Daemon Blackfyre(whose mother was Daena Targaryen), Aegor Rivers(Bittersteel), and Brynden Rivers(Bloodraven, whose mother was a Blackwood). After Daemon was killed during his rebellion, Bittersteel took his children and ran to the Free Cities. I'm pretty sure he founded the Golden Company because their motto is "Beneath the gold, bitter steel." Thank you. Someday, I am going to work my way into SSM and read everything. I keep rereading trying to find Bloodraven and Bittersteel expalined in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 This phrase has niggled at me for some time. Why single out Young Griff as someone who will like Tyrion? The question will remain open until we will get the rest of ADWD. The only thing that is obvious from spoiler is that Young Grif is important person otherwise why would Illirio care for him so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ealasaid Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 The question will remain open until we will get the rest of ADWD. The only thing that is obvious from spoiler is that Young Grif is important person otherwise why would Illirio care for him so much? Have you read Matin's Tyrion Chapter from ADwD? SPOILER: option Tyrion, housed at Illyrio's home, finds clothes of a young boy in a cedar trunk - which he subsequently wears. I first thought of Viserys. But then I realized he would have been too old to wear such small clothes during the time he and Dany spent at Illyrio's home. Perhaps the clothes are those of young Grif, which suggesting that Illyrion either sponsered or cared for Young Grif when he was younger - maybe a family connection? Wild conjecture, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted August 27, 2006 Share Posted August 27, 2006 Have you read Matin's Tyrion Chapter from ADwD? SPOILER: option Tyrion, housed at Illyrio's home, finds clothes of a young boy in a cedar trunk - which he subsequently wears. I first thought of Viserys. But then I realized he would have been too old to wear such small clothes during the time he and Dany spent at Illyrio's home. Perhaps the clothes are those of young Grif, which suggesting that Illyrion either sponsered or cared for Young Grif when he was younger - maybe a family connection? Wild conjecture, of course. Yes of course I’ve read the spoiler. It seems that Illirio gives to Tyrion a lot hints while saying a very few things directly. Apparently he has great plans about Tyrion so he provides him with necessary information and on the other side he want’s to check Varys judgment if Tyrion is really that clever to figure the rest. There are entirely too many hints about Young Grif. Illirion says aloud that he brought presents for him, he asks if he is ready (for what?) he states that he would like Tyrion (why him and not Grif himself and not any other member of Grif’s party). And yes I agree that boy’s clothes at Illirio home yet another hint to Young Grif. Yet none of that hints gives us answer who is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlord Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 There is something that is bugging my mind here.What is this talk about tha Dany will soon met pale dune, little lion and so on ? And where in books does it say that ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khamul Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Well, GRRM have been reading some spoiler chapters from ADOD aloud at conventions etc. Two of them have been from Tyrion's POV. The first of these chapters are up on GRRMs own site, and the other isn't up anywhere. The closest you get to it are the notes in this thread. And if you read them both, it should be pretty obvious that Tyrion is going to meet Dany. He is currently traveling with a mercenary company along the Valyrian road to Volantis. And if nothing happens on the way, he'll probably join up with Dany in Meereen. I don't know what you mean by 'pale dune'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlord Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 You misunderstood me, I am asking about this : "It is also fortold by Quaithe that the lion is going to show up, along with a veritable menagerie of people." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 "It is also fortold by Quaithe that the lion is going to show up, along with a veritable menagerie of people." Read 3rd Daenerys chapter summary from ADWD. It's in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonlord Posted September 20, 2006 Share Posted September 20, 2006 Hvala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barba Posted September 22, 2006 Share Posted September 22, 2006 Hvala Nema na cemu :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daralys Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 They keep eating and drinking and end up speaking of Varys. Tyrion learns that Illyrio and Varys grew up together in Pentos. Varys had arrived from Myr one step ahead of the slavers after being ratted out by a fellow thief. Varys had been a Prince of Thieves in Myr. Varys was nearly beaten to death in Pentos and Illyrio decided to come to an arrangement with him. Varys spied on small time thieves and stole their loot. Illyrio worked out arrangements with the victimes to recover their loot for a price. Half of the thieves wanted to kill Varys while the other half started selling their loot to him. Illyrio and Varys grew rich and soon Varys began to train his little "mice". The mice were little boys and girls who he taught to climb walls, slip into chimneys, and to read. The mice were used to steal information, memorize it, and then leave. Varys' talents gave him a reputation that got to an anxious king who did not trust his son, his Queen, or his over proud Hand. Does anyone else see this as a revelation of Varys's intentions? Doesn't it sound like Varys helped Aerys lose the kingdom by making him so paranoid that he began killing his nobles? It's not like the nobles would have just let this keep going and going; eventually one of them would have rebelled, which is what Jon Arryn did. So, the Targaryens have lost the kingdom, but Varys, through Illyrio, is helping them get it back, but of course there will be rich rewards for Illyrio (and maybe Verys) once it's all done. Sounds exactly like the "Varys spied on small time thieves and stole their loot. Illyrio worked out arrangements with the victimes to recover their loot for a price" except that it's on a much larger scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Blackfyre Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Does anyone else see this as a revelation of Varys's intentions? Doesn't it sound like Varys helped Aerys lose the kingdom by making him so paranoid that he began killing his nobles? It's not like the nobles would have just let this keep going and going; eventually one of them would have rebelled, which is what Jon Arryn did. So, the Targaryens have lost the kingdom, but Varys, through Illyrio, is helping them get it back, but of course there will be rich rewards for Illyrio (and maybe Verys) once it's all done. Sounds exactly like the "Varys spied on small time thieves and stole their loot. Illyrio worked out arrangements with the victimes to recover their loot for a price" except that it's on a much larger scale. Damn good catch I say. The parrallel there is spot on, and its more than likely that Varys and Illyrio would have graduated to bigger "thieves" with "larger" loot at this point in their lives. This could add to any theory about who Young Griff is as well. If he is a fake Aegon then its just a smaller part of the larger sceme. This is just another trick of the trade if you will. "Oh, you lost your loot? I have this guy that can help you find your loot." Only this time they up the probablity of remaining in their "clients" good graces by offering her more than just a sellsword company, but a blood relative and possible general for her invasion, or husband to share the throne. Surely, Young Griff would like this idea if he was a fake who got to become a king or rider of a dragon. If he is the real Aegon then he is another member of the Targ family they were planning to extort property and money from, but as Dany is the top candidate to reclaim Westeros at the moment, they want to see them join up because Aegon is already fooled. This also ties in with why it may not have mattered much to Illyrio that Viserys died, he used him as he could for a time but Viserys proved mad and was expendable due to the other options of Dany and Aegon. If he has nothing to do with Aegon and they aren't trying to pawn him off as a fake then he's just another knight, along with his father and their company, Illyrio is planning on useing to help Dany retake the thrown. Then it wouldn't matter how fast they got to Dany, as Illyrio was saying in the foriegn language argument with Ser Duck and Haldon. The Golden Company and Griff's company can both help Dany, just as the Storm Crows and the Second Sons are already doing. This seems to be a pretty likely thing for Illyrio and Varys to be pushing for to me, because I don't think they are the types to underestimate the force needed to conquer Westeros, and they want to be sure of victory as well. Or else they don't get paid. Either way I love the idea of The Golden Company and Griffs Company joining Dany and giving her even more knights to help in her invasion...along with the possiblity of the Martells joining her through Quentyn and the Greyjoys through Victarion/Euron. Combine that with her Dothraki, the Unsullied and the knights that Barristan is training and she has an awesome number of troops. Add Tyrion and his knowledge of dragons and skill with saddles and Dany's army is the biggest and baddest force out there at the moment, plus she controls the only air force on the planet. If all these ties, or even some of them come about in Dance then the invasion doesn't need to be so far off, if not end Dance with Dragons, it could be early on in Winds of Winter. Total speculation, but its a fun thought to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urizen Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Does anyone else see this as a revelation of Varys's intentions? Doesn't it sound like Varys helped Aerys lose the kingdom by making him so paranoid that he began killing his nobles? Not necessarely. I've posted this in other threads but it's just as likely that Aerys was somewhat of a puppetking (with Tywin and maybe Rhaegar actually calling all the shots) and Varys, when he came along, simply pointed this out to Aerys. This of course tipping an unstable Aerys (all the Targs are close to insanity, right?) over the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Ex Machina Posted May 15, 2007 Share Posted May 15, 2007 Why does everyone think that Tyrion will get a good reception by Daenerys? Or that Illyrio hasn’t got a hidden agenda towards Tyrion? My guess is that Tyrion is a gift to Daernerys from Ilyrio to show loyalty. She is definitely not gone forget that Tyrion is the brother of the one that killed her father. And I don’t think that she will be forgiving towards any Lannisters or Starks no matter what people say around her. Even if Tyrion swears his loyalty and everything all she will see is a Lannisters. About Illyrio I am pretty sure he has only his own interest, he is not so fond of Varys and Tyrion is only an opportunity to better his own position in the eyes of Daenerys The reason that he may at least get his day in court is named Barristan Selmy. Daenarys knows none of these people nor has intimate knowledge of the happenings both during the War of the Usurper and the War of the Five Kings. Selmy will caution her against rash actions. Remember that she was ready to give Jorah a pardon should he have asked for it. He has actually acted against her considerably more than Tyrion has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted May 16, 2007 Share Posted May 16, 2007 The reason that he may at least get his day in court is named Barristan Selmy. Daenarys knows none of these people nor has intimate knowledge of the happenings both during the War of the Usurper and the War of the Five Kings. Selmy will caution her against rash actions. Remember that she was ready to give Jorah a pardon should he have asked for it. He has actually acted against her considerably more than Tyrion has. Tyrion will arrive with a company of Grif - a man Selmy should know and a man that should indeed get a warm acceptance as Dany dead brother dear friend. This will make matters much safer for Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFDanny Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Pardon my ignorance, but is there anymore evidence that "Grif" is indeed Jon Connington than the coincidence of Connington's House sigil and the nickname, as well as the general similarity of Connington's last know location? We know Jaime thought him dead, but it seems most posters here think this is the same man. Just wondering if there is more that I'm missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezeh Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Pardon my ignorance, but is there anymore evidence that "Grif" is indeed Jon Connington than the coincidence of Connington's House sigil and the nickname, as well as the general similarity of Connington's last know location? We know Jaime thought him dead, but it seems most posters here think this is the same man. Just wondering if there is more that I'm missing. In Dany’s spoiler chapter she was told that she will be visited by griffin and lion. Lion is obviously Tyrion so griffin is almost certainly Grif from Tyrion’s chapter. Now Griffin is a sigil of the House Connington and the only other known member of the house Red Ronet is not likely to go to Dany. This is right that Jon Connington is supposed long dead in Westeros but he was mentioned as died in exile and in AFFC Jaime thought that he drunk himself to death within a year after his exile. The matter of such a death surely could not be verified and people believed in it because Connington obviously disappeared. Yet he might have reason to fake his death so there must be another mystery behind it. Probably another head of the dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malek Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I might be mightily wrong here (actually I'm quite sure that I'm, but anyway... ) Wasn't it said that Quentyn Martell is the leader of a mercenary company (it seems like I heard it somewhere hrom someone). Could it be golden company, could it be that Quentyn is leading them towards Denny per Doran's order ?! Btw does Grif and Grif jr connection remind anyone else on bounty hounters from Star Wars universe: Jango and his clone/son Boba Fett ? Oh how I can see a mightily interesting duel deciding Tyrion's faith: sellsword against sellsword, Bronn against Grif... Wouldn't it be joy to behold ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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