[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[Gogossos]

Personally I have long been arguing that Dany's only two options for stopping the Harpy were (1) Painful compromise to achieve peace, like she did at first; and (2) Mass murder of many or all of the Meereenese nobles and their wives and children, so I do agree with you that mass murder is… an option. However, it's a terribly morally repulsive option that would make her one of the worst villains of the series.

EDIT: It is precisely because I think her final chapter indicates she is now more open to an approach like this -- and because she'll soon meet Dothraki, ironborn, and Tyrion "poison the wells" Lannister who will all likely be similarly ruthless -- that I think Dany will cause a ton of death and destruction in TWOW, and that she might end up as the big villain after all.

The only thing to do Is to wait for the next book. Some of the topics we are debating belong to TWOW forums, because none of us has enough information. We are just trying to force our interpretations on others. Having said that, I have no idea what Dany's last chapter meant. I have tried to think about and usually come up empty. But I don't think we are going to suddenly see a U-turn to an intricately developed character, for no reason than "curveball". Dany doesn't poison wells or destroy her own city to spite an enemy, she has been naive about certain things, but she has been firm about others particularly those that define her morality.

I think the options for dealing with her Meereenese problem aren't limited to the two mentioned here. The Battle of Meereen can take care of a number of things, in battle her enemies are most likely to come out into the open and fight and by defeating them she will defeat this insurgency problem. She will the most likely be left with rebuilding issues, which she has shown capabilities for. Then she flies of to Westeros.

Meereen was an internal arc, more than anything else. So after her clarity of the last chapter of ADWD, she begins TWOW with a battle, then moves on. What is important is what kind of person she is by the time she reaches Westeros, and in what state does she find that place? She won't have 13 chapters in that book, because we will need to visit the Wall, Dorne, the Vale, KL, the Riverlands, Skagos and Winterfell plus whereever Arya is. Dany will most likely have 4 or 5 chapters.

Not to mention, Westeros knows plenty of dragons and that didn't stop the Game of Thrones one bit.

But the Game means so many things, it doesn't mean fighting for the Iron Throne. The Targs held the Iron Throne for some 300 years and while Lord Rickard came closest to challenging Aerys, the game does not necessarily have to be about challenging the King all the time. It could about controlling one of the many castles in Westeros without devolving into the War of the Five Kings or Robert's Rebellion scales. So I agree, if Dany takes the throne, the game won't stop but it doesn't necessarily have to mean someone is challenging her rule all the time.

The fundamental elements of the Game of Thrones are not going to be changed by Dany's ascension.

True but only to an extent. Many Houses will want to marry her if Dany ascends and those that lose out will feel slighted. But just on this plot point, Dany is not Sansa. She needs two dragon riders (who she thinks should be husbands but she could be wrong). And the game is not just about marriage: Dany could make changes that change the rules of the game: she could have a standing army (taking power from the lords of calling banners), she could attempt some kind of common law (taking power from the lords of enforcing their own will on others), she could expand the council to include all the major houses (relegating centuries old grudgies to the minor leagues), she could expand education to common folk (entrenching her own hold on society). I could go on but as you can see, she could change the game to her advantage if she wanted to.

[iamthedave]

In his first chapter of AGoT and in ADWD, Jon said that he wanted to be the Young Dragon. We don't know what his thoughts will be if he finds out that he is a Targaryen.

We do know how he answered when he was offered a chance to become a legitimized man, freed from his oath and raised to Lord of Winterfell, though.

A man isn't defined by his wants, but by his choices. And Jon chose to remain a bastard and Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

[The Lost Lord]

But I don't think we are going to suddenly see a U-turn to an intricately developed character, for no reason than "curveball".

But it has been set up, particularly with her crucifixion of 163 Great Masters. As you'll recall, that was back at the end of ASOS, and I think it's highly significant that Martin included it in her last chapter there, back when he planned a 5-year gap after that volume. Martin clearly portrays the act as going too far -- Dany impulsively orders it when the anger burned hot inside her and made her feel like an avenging dragon, and then her stomach is turned by the results. But she rationalizes it and convinces herself not to regret it. IMO, if Martin intended Dany to not commit any more terrible acts like that, he would've had her learn from and accept that she made a mistake with the mass crucifixion. But she instead bats away her conscience, which is telling her that this was a mistake. This seems to me clearly to set the stage for her to commit more acts like that.

The Battle of Meereen can take care of a number of things, in battle her enemies are most likely to come out into the open and fight and by defeating them she will defeat this insurgency problem.

Actually, I think Barristan's final chapter debunked this idea that Dany's enemies are all secretly in league. Shavepate whispered into Barristan's ear that Hizdahr was going to open the gates to the Yunkai'i --this never made much sense, and IMO we see that he was lying in Barristan's last chapter when the Green Grace, who is likely the Harpy, comes to Barristan with tears in her eyes because the Yunkai'i are at the city walls. It doesn't make any sense that the Meereenese nobles would want their city sacked by a bunch of ruthless foreigners and sellswords, especially not after the nobles had secured a share of power with the Hizdahr-Dany marriage.

We do know how he answered when he was offered a chance to become a legitimized man, freed from his oath and raised to Lord of Winterfell, though. A man isn't defined by his wants, but by his choices. And Jon chose to remain a bastard and Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

This is a different topic, but I disagree with this entirely. Jon's rejection of Winterfell was a bit of a red herring. It is clear throughout ADWD that he is not prepared to accept Lannister-Bolton rule -- and therefore that he is not prepared to give up the game of thrones. He has his thumb on the scale for Stannis throughout the book, he sends Mance to rescue Arya, he arranges a Karstark-wildling wedding while locking up those who object, and all this leads to his fateful decision to ride south against Ramsay. Jon did not seek the Lord Commander position, but as ADWD moved along Jon changed quite a bit -- he became more comfortable with power, and he has come to believe that he is smarter and better than others and that he should be and perhaps must be in charge (and he is arguably right about this). In his last few chapters in ADWD he considers those who disagree with him short-sighted fools, and this will only be confirmed further when he (in Ghost) sees the chaotic aftermath of his own assassination. I find it easy to believe he will take a similar attitude toward the Iron Throne once he finds out his heritage -- that he has to be in charge, because everyone else is screwing up the job.

[iamthedave]

But the Game means so many things, it doesn't mean fighting for the Iron Throne. The Targs held the Iron Throne for some 300 years and while Lord Rickard came closest to challenging Aerys, the game does not necessarily have to be about challenging the King all the time. It could about controlling one of the many castles in Westeros without devolving into the War of the Five Kings or Robert's Rebellion scales. So I agree, if Dany takes the throne, the game won't stop but it doesn't necessarily have to mean someone is challenging her rule all the time.

Never said it did. It does mean Dany constantly having to deal with the political BS that ADWD clearly, explicitly and repeatedly shows and states that she loathes.

True but only to an extent. Many Houses will want to marry her if Dany ascends and those that lose out will feel slighted. But just on this plot point, Dany is not Sansa. She needs two dragon riders (who she thinks should be husbands but she could be wrong). And the game is not just about marriage: Dany could make changes that change the rules of the game: she could have a standing army (taking power from the lords of calling banners), she could attempt some kind of common law (taking power from the lords of enforcing their own will on others), she could expand the council to include all the major houses (relegating centuries old grudgies to the minor leagues), she could expand education to common folk (entrenching her own hold on society). I could go on but as you can see, she could change the game to her advantage if she wanted to.

Standing army appears to be impractical with the way Westeros' economy is described. Every time more than five men in swords congregate people cry about the amount of food that gets eaten (well, not quite, but you know what I mean). For her to have a standing army large enough to be a difference maker for long enough to truly change things seems impractical given that. It could work, but it wouldn't help with the irritating, nibbly sort of arguments that seem to form a big part of the Game of Thrones (I.E. the bits which aren't direct fights over the throne).

The other issue with a standing army seems to me that the place is just too damn big. It'd take an eternity to respond to a problem in the North, for example.

I'm not convinced those suggestions would change the game Gorgossos. Actually no, being fair, educating the common folk would change everything. Just as it did in the real world.

Other than that? I don't think so. It's not like there's some special arrangement that leads to the Game, after all. It's simple human desires, and it results from the fact the kingdoms hate each other. Putting the Tyrells and the Dornish in the same room isn't going to get them to hash out their differences, it'll get them to intrigue against one another, attempt to set the other up to fail, sabotage each other's plots directly and maybe even attempt to kill one another.

I'm not being pessimistic there. It's stated repeatedly how much the Tyrells and Dornish hate one another. And nobody can wave their hand and undo centuries of history and old grudges. Isn't that the entire problem Dany's had in slaver's bay? Sure she can try to change things... but her people aren't going to change just because she wants them to.

What was her line? I can't make my people good, but I can make them a little less bad?

It's not that different in Westeros. I find it hard to believe that Dany is the first Targ to think 'you know, it'd be handy if my lords weren't trying to rip each others' throats out every five minutes'. There's are reasons why none of them could get them to stop, and... arguments aside... Dany was never able to get the Meereenese to put aside their hatred. The slavers hated the freedmen, the freedmen hated the slavers. That was obvious in every chapter in ways both small and large. It's a different form of hate in Westeros, but it runs just as deep. And even worse, she can't use her charisma to quell the troubles, because they'll be happening hundreds and hundreds of leagues away, involving people she'll hardly ever meet.

this will only be confirmed further when he (in Ghost) sees the chaotic aftermath of his own assassination. I find it easy to believe he will take a similar attitude toward the Iron Throne once he finds out his heritage -- that he has to be in charge, because everyone else is screwing up the job.

As I can see the dreaded Titanic-sized shadow of thread derailment coming (I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Jon), I'll cut that lot down to just this line and say I have no issue with what you said but see it differently.

Here... if Jon's in Ghost, doesn't that mean he's dead and his soul is destined to fade away? The skinchanger stuff from the first chapter was pretty adamant about what happens to one whose spirit ends up in his wolf. I know there's a theory of Melisandre sacrificing Ghost to get Jon back... but it's all pretty dim theorizing at this point.

I always figured he's either dead, or his wounds aren't fatal. Or he'll get the kiss of life and become UnJon, along with UnCat, UnBeric, and perhaps UnBrienne.

[ARYa_Nym]

We do know how he answered when he was offered a chance to become a legitimized man, freed from his oath and raised to Lord of Winterfell, though.

A man isn't defined by his wants, but by his choices. And Jon chose to remain a bastard and Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

He said several times in the series that he was never truly a Stark. It wasn't his place even though he desired it and he knew that. I don't think that would be the same as finding out that he was really Rhaegar's heir all this time.

Anyways, my point is that Dany doesn't necessarily carry the burden of restoring her house as she is not the last of its line.

[Verboten]

(Xaro believes those creatures shouldn't exist, period. Is that your view as well?)

I can't speak for others but FUCK YES I want the dragons to die. They're dangerously unstable and even if Dany somehow manages to tame all three of them she can't be there all the time. They should be kept away from people or killed. And seeing as how Dany's not a warg she can't exactly use them for anything other than roasting people.

Also I love you Quentyn where have you gone? :crying:

[Gogossos]

Also I love you Quentyn where have you gone? :crying:

Derailed by Dany and Jon. It happens a lot ;)

[Nightstar]

Assuming Jon is a Targ and freed from his oath and marries and lives to have a kid and wants to rule... then it can continue on that side. I really, really don't see Jon going near the Iron Throne, though. Unlike Dany, he's got absolutely no interest in it and I can't fathom him ever developing an interest in it. And becoming King of Westeros isn't like being Lord Commander: you don't get elected.

And even then, he'd have to rule after breaking his sworn oath to never take wives and have children.

Jon had already decided to disregard those vows, so I doubt that will be an issue any longer. Besides, I'm sure he'll be given an exit strategy.

As for having no interest in the Iron Throne, well, I have no interest in the throne of Britain.

BUT- if I suddenly learned that somehow I am the next heir, I assure you I would rapidly develop an interest!

[Silmarien]

I can't speak for others but FUCK YES I want the dragons to die. They're dangerously unstable and even if Dany somehow manages to tame all three of them she can't be there all the time. They should be kept away from people or killed. And seeing as how Dany's not a warg she can't exactly use them for anything other than roasting people.

Also I love you Quentyn where have you gone? :crying:

You want the most effective weapon against The Others to be killed? :huh:

I don't understand. Yes they're dangerous, but Dany has tamed the most dangerous (I believe he's bonded to her will now, I suppose others might disagree). The two others can be trained with Tyrion's knowledge. And there's always the dragon horn.

Ice and Fire have to be in balance - that's why the seasons are off, and it's why Dany's dragons awoke, because The Others were already waking up.

[iNinja]

There's a high chance that any character in the series will die. This includes Aegon, Dany, Jon, and more Starks. & once the Others breach the wall everyone is fair game to become a wight.

Either Aegon is the other Targaryen or Jon is. GRRM said that the third head of the dragon doesn't necessarily need to be a Targaryen. That implies that the other two are imo.

The continuation of the Targaryen House doesn't necessarily have to correlate to ruling. Both Jon and Dany can continue the line whether they get on the Iron Throne or not.

In his first chapter of AGoT and in ADWD, Jon said that he wanted to be the Young Dragon. We don't know what his thoughts will be if he finds out that he is a Targaryen.

I don't think Bran will die. His chances are low unless the little tree people eat him.

[Tini]

You want the most effective weapon against The Others to be killed? :huh:

I don't understand. Yes they're dangerous, but Dany has tamed the most dangerous (I believe he's bonded to her will now, I suppose others might disagree). The two others can be trained with Tyrion's knowledge. And there's always the dragon horn.

Ice and Fire have to be in balance - that's why the seasons are off, and it's why Dany's dragons awoke, because The Others were already waking up.

The other two can be trained by their riders, if they find suitable riders. Tyrion then might help the riders train their dragons. But the dragons will always remain a danger excpet for their own rider. This is suggested by the books Tyrion studied. At the moment, Brown Ben Plumm is actually in a good position to become a dragon rider. He is in the area, and the dragons like him. I don't know if that would be good or bad.

[Ghost Rider]

Ice and Fire have to be in balance - that's why the seasons are off, and it's why Dany's dragons awoke, because The Others were already waking up.

Wouldn't that support the theory that both have to die - the Others and the Dragons? We don't know how dangerous the dragons are to the others and the other way around. It would be pretty boring, if they just fly in, roast all the Others, everybody's happy. But we do know that both the Dragons and the Others are a threat to humans. The body count of the Dragons will probably rise in the next book, until now we had the little girl, some other guys in Mereen and of course Quentyn Martell who mistakenly thought that the dragons could be tamed by him.

Wouldn't it be epic if both are huge threats to the world's balance? Hinge of the world, indeed.

Another thought... the Others hadn't been sighted for 8000 years during the long night, while there were still dragons some 100 and something years ago. I just wonder whether there is any direct connection concerning magic and the seasons, but it's hard to see. How then are the dragons connected to the return of magic? Are they cause or effect?

[Silverin]

You want the most effective weapon against The Others to be killed? :huh:

I don't understand. Yes they're dangerous, but Dany has tamed the most dangerous (I believe he's bonded to her will now, I suppose others might disagree). The two others can be trained with Tyrion's knowledge. And there's always the dragon horn.

Ice and Fire have to be in balance - that's why the seasons are off, and it's why Dany's dragons awoke, because The Others were already waking up.

Dragons don't choose their riders according to who are nice and want to save the world. The dragons during the Valyrian empire destroyed whole civilisations and the lands that they destroyed aren't fertile even after hundreds of years (that is why the cities of Ghis had to base their economy on slavery). So while Dany wouldn't let them do such destruction (at least I hope so, but who knows), but what if her crazy son (because lest face it, it runs in the family) decideds it would be fun, and likes to see people BBQd (like Aerys). Then it would be just as bad as the others.

And beside I actually think the dragons killed way more people than the Others. I mean the Others came ONCE 8000 years ago, were defeated and the end. Did they destroy whole civilizsations? Forced millions into slavery? No. The dragons? They were terrorizing the people of Essos for thousands of years, destroyed whole civilizations, because of them a lot of people were forced into slavery (because the former dragonlords were the ones who established the slavery as an integral part of the economy of Essos), and those slaves had such awful lives that they established the Faceless Man cult because they wanted to end their suffering.

So I hope the dragons will be gone. I actually fully support the maesters in their antidragon plotting.

[Ser Lepus]

I have read this blog that explains pretty much why Doran´s plan sucks in every way.

I think the worse is not just that he fails to aid Vyseris and Dany (which was easy, since the Sealord knew everything and could have channeled without revealing the true source; and even without the Sealord´s help, he could have made up something easily), it´s that he doesn´t seem to realize in how many different ways his precious plan could have been ruined because he didn´t helped them:

Daenerys is lucky she wasn´t kidnapped and raped and turned into a courtesan or concubine (Illyrio himself was tempted of doing so); instead, she was forced to marriage, which was just as negative for Doran´s plan. As for Vyseris, he was about twenty-six when he died; did really Doran expected him to stay single, safe and still all this years? He could have married someone, or he could have tried something desesperate and/or stupid, and gotten himself killed (which he finally did).

Doran acts just as if he thought Daenerys and Vyseris where living in some lordly court overseas, being cared and thoroughly prepared for their role, when in fact they had to fend by themselves, live on charity and growed unchecked and without training or teaching to prepare them for was coming.

Also even if nothing bad had happened to Dany and her brother, and by chance they had growed into people fit to conquer and rule Westeros, what made him think they were to remain single even without knowing anything of the compromise?; their lineage is the only valuable thing they had left, and if Vyseris had been a sensible man instead of a mad one, he would had arranged good marriages into rich families as trophy wife and hundsband for his sister and himself.

The bit about Drogo should also be taken into account; if he hasn´t died, what would Quentyn have done? Would he have gone to the Khal and have demanded that he divorce his wife and mother of his heir?. :lol:

The plan of Doran, as he tells it to Arianne and Quentyn, essentially rests on blind luck and trusting that everything will happen like a tale. :dunno:

I think Doran had already given up on his revenge, and only thought of carrying on with his plan after the War of the Five Kings started he heard of the baby dragons, but he can´t say so to Arianna, because he would have to confess that he really wanted to disinherit her and make Quentyn his heir, and he needed his daughter´s help to trick Myrcella into lying for their sake.

[brashcandy]

Thanks Ser Lepus, for posting that link and your general post - just sums up everything I've been saying about Doran Martell and that ridiculous "revenge plan".

ETA: OH my gosh!!! I just got to the Quentyn part. So hilarious, but true!!!

Gogossos, Hodor, and the others who know Quentyn was a fool, you HAVE to read this :lol:

[It is none]

Ser Lepus, thank you, thank you, thank you. thank you. What you say about Doran and Quentyn seems to me blindingly obvious but there are an amazing number of posters who read the same words you and I read and still think Doran is brillliant and Dany's reaction to his poor emissary, Quentyn, both wicked and stupid.

I would hope that when and if Arriana and the sand snakes learn the details of his "fire and blood" strategy, they will also see how ridiculous it was. This should go some distance to their giving some consideration to supporting Dany, especially if Aegon turns out to be as big a spoiled brat as I believe he will turn out to be.

[The Lost Lord]

and still think Doran is brillliant and Dany's reaction to his poor emissary, Quentyn, both wicked and stupid.

But Dany did not have that reaction. She said she perfectly understood why Doran didn't let anyone know, because if Viserys knew he had a Dornish princess waiting for him, he would've embarked on a suicidal quest to Dorne immediately. She only handled Quentyn so foolishly because he happened to arrive days before she had a vision quest reminding her to go to Westeros, rather than days after that vision quest.

It is quite possible to believe Doran's plan was lame, and even that Quentyn was lame -- but still to recognize the obvious fact that if Dany intends to conquer and rule Westeros, losing Dorne is a strategic blunder likely to result in grave consequences.

This should go some distance to their giving some consideration to supporting Dany, especially if Aegon turns out to be as big a spoiled brat as I believe he will turn out to be.

Approximately 0% chance of this. Doesn't matter if Aegon's a spoiled brat. He's currently in Westeros with the Golden Company, ready to depose the hated Lannisters. Dorne will rally to his side, whether he's legitimate or not, whether he's a brat or not.