[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[tozka]

Because GRRM likes subverting tropes in fantasy.

QM in another book would have been the hero: intelligent, well read, kind of bland personality, on a long journey to rescue a queen/princess who was "the most beautiful girl in the world". He is accompanied by two companions -- one of whom is a big, strong, silent-type of figure and the other the charming rogue. On their shoulders rest the fate of their kingdom. After nearing the conclusion of their journey and facing murder by the jealous king, the nerdy hero decides to sneak in and steal the McGuffin, a dragon, to save the day.

QM is then burned to a crisp by said dragon and his romantic pursuit was shown as hapless by the wiser narrator who considered QM no more than mud.

Or to put it other words, if Rand al'Thor wouldn't last longer than a book in GRRM's universe.

GRRM's is more than just being subversive. It's also to make a point. Too often fantasy authors try to flatter their expected readership, nerdy adolescent boys, by telling stories of similar characters getting the girl and glory, usually through a prophetic destiny and magic. But in real life, those kind of guys NEVER get the girl just by being earnest or "brave." What Martin is saying is that this type of story in fantasy is bullshit and lazy writing. By having QM think, well I'm the hero and thus safe, is that fantasy writers have went far too often to that particular well.

Considering that GRRM outsells everyone in the adult fantasy genre, I am inclined to agree with him.

That was well said.

I really liked Quent, I was totally rooting for him and for a moment I thought despite being terrified he would succeed in taming the Dragon because it was not all so different from how Dany did it but then the other Dragon showed up - and crispy Quent.

I also think one of the points was to show that Dragons ARE dangerous , very very dangerous, and that playing with dragons have some pretty dire consequences.

[Leuf]

1. Quentyn needs to die by Danny’s hand/dragon to set up friction with Drone. And allow Dorran to support Aegon over Danny.

Why? Aegon is in Westeros kicking ass and taking names. Dany is in Meereen. Dorne has no agreement to marry anyone to Dany.

2. The Dragons needed to be let out, and shown that they can live alongside humans without eating them if you provide food for them. IE they don’t have to be kept chained.

a. The dragons can just break out on their own once they're strong enough to be a force to be reckoned with.

b. You can just not lock them up in the first place. But I think somehow the story needs Drogon to be much stronger than the other two, stronger than just being the bigger one at birth can explain, so he needs the other two locked up to stunt their growth a bit.

I liked the Quentyn story well enough, but I would have been happy to sacrifice it to get some resolution to the events around Winterfell. I tend to think his main purpose was just to die so GRRM can remind us that he does actually kill characters off, because he's been pretending to kill too many characters off in books 4+5. But if you feel like you have to remind people that you do that after the first three books, you're doing it wrong!

My hope is that the two knights that were with Quentyn and are now with Selmy will end up doing something other than just head back to Dorne. It's not like they're going to be able to just hop on a boat back what with a massive naval battle brewing in Slaver's Bay. Maybe they'll end up part of Dany's queensguard, though one has burnt hands.

[El Pinko Grande]

FWIW, I don't think Quentyn actually thought it was his destiny to ride a dragon. He just saw dragon taming as being the one way he could salvage his entire journey out to Slaver's Bay. Especially once Dany disappears. With her gone, really the only way for him to salvage the situation is to get a dragon. Once that has become his goal, he needs to move quickly, since there is always the chance that the Mereenese will work up the courage to kill the dragons. Or him, for that matter.

[Kit]

QUEEENNNTTTYYYYYNNNNNN MAAAARRRRRRRTEEEEEELLLLLLLLL!

Japes aside, Quentyn's arc showed Volantis, sellswords, and freeing of dragons. It was tragic and it was a deconstruction of a fantasy trope. I also am beginning to believe that he was the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, and that Dany's blood at the end of the book was actually a miscarriage or something, or else a heavy period after having no period for so long--her fertility slowly coming back to her after all.

I also wonder what effects his death will have on Dorne (the big one, and I think perhaps the provoker of the "Dornish reaction" GRRM mentioned on his Not a Blog as being moved to TWoW) but also on Dany (if at all; it will feed into her character development in some way or another) if she gets back to Meereen and finds that her dragons' freedom was paid in Westerosi blood, exactly the kind of blood she should theoretically be protecting if she wants to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

[you wouldn't know me]

I'm curious about what the other two knights will do now as well, especially if they manage to free the hostages.

[chris.t.]

My reaction to the Quentyn thread...

"Doran, all these years, all these plots within plots, and THIS is the best you could come up with? Is that really the best you could do? I mean, seriously?"

What I find interesting is that I thought that Doran and Varys were working together. But now, it seems like Varys was working the Aegon angle and Doran didn't know a thing about it. Otherwise he would have been marrying off Arianne to Aegon instead of Viserys.

If things had gone as apparently Varys and Illyrio had originally planned, that would have been quite the double cross...

"Uhm, yeah. Congratulations on your daughter's wedding. But about the whole Queen thing... Ya see, uhm, what's the best way to say this... Uhm... Well, look on the bright side: In Dorne, she's still a princess."

[Tourmaline Dragon]

I was actually very saddened when Quentyn died. I enjoyed his chapters. I wasn’t expecting his story to end so soon it was a shock. He was a decent guy; I found his death very tragic.

Although he himself failed in his mission to woo Dany I think he has advanced the plot a lot (for book 6) in a roundabout way, as you say the dragons are now free (to thrive and grow I presume) and Ser Barristan found a way to try and bring the Windblown over to Danys side through Quentyn’s friends – with the promise of Pentos, now if Dany has to give the Tattered Prince Pentos then that’s quite a big story in itself – who is the Tattered Prince, why does he want Pentos. How will Illyrio react to that etc etc

[Alaric Storm]

Quentyn was on a quest. with Danys disappearance, that quest was in jeoporady. he took extreme action to complete it and got roasted because of it. all-in-all, i think that he was just a red herring. it's his fellow companions, who now have to pick up the slack, that i wana know about.

[Eaglewood]

I really liked Quentyn, but he was set out to fail in the first chapter.

Actually, I kept expecting he would somehow succeed against the odds, as that would have been much more shocking in GRRM's world. But nope. Burnt to a crisp. GRRM is true to his inherent sensibilities as ever.

I did wonder how things would have turned out if he had better information or a stronger personality. Dany likes people who come in large and in charge, who she can butt heads with. Meekly sneaking in with a letter was not going to impress her at all. I wonder what her reaction would have been if Quentyn had flat out called her out on Meeren "What the hell are you doing here? You are the rightful Queen of Westeros. You're Seven Kingdoms are in disarray. Get your ass there now." It might have turned her on... and got her moving.

Alas, Quentyn was too polite and nice for GRRM's world. Poor kid.

PS. "The Prince was three days dying." GRRM... you ASSHOLE. Ugh. :(

[Baramos]

GRRM's is more than just being subversive. It's also to make a point. Too often fantasy authors try to flatter their expected readership, nerdy adolescent boys, by telling stories of similar characters getting the girl and glory, usually through a prophetic destiny and magic. But in real life, those kind of guys NEVER get the girl just by being earnest or "brave." What Martin is saying is that this type of story in fantasy is bullshit and lazy writing. By having QM think, well I'm the hero and thus safe, is that fantasy writers have went far too often to that particular well.

Considering that GRRM outsells everyone in the adult fantasy genre, I am inclined to agree with him.

Wait.

How does Samwell Tarly fit into that view of things? Samwell is the ultimate nerd fantasy! Fat cowardly boy makes good and gets some sexytimes with hot chick.

Of course I guess he didn't fit the basic protagonist archetype, either, like Quentyn does...

Quentyn to me was just Deus Ex Machina thought up of by Martin for various plot related reasons, including a convenient POV character.

[HP Loveshaft]

Wait.

How does Samwell Tarly fit into that view of things? Samwell is the ultimate nerd fantasy! Fat cowardly boy makes good and gets some sexytimes with hot chick.

Gilly's hot? I always pictured her as being ugly, on account of all the incest at Craster's.

[Eaglewood]

Gilly's hot? I always pictured her as being ugly, on account of all the incest at Craster's.

People keep calling her slender and comparing her to a doe. I guess that's medieval for hot?

[Røyksopp]

Quentyn fits the stereotype a bit more than Sam, and I'd say Martin's not exactly staying 'true to his inherent sensibilities' by keeping Sam alive, actually.

[Howdyphillip]

I loved Quentyn's story line. I think it is extremely important to the over all story that we get a Dornish perspective of things. I really liked the character and was rooting for him the whole way. I know this may seem macabre, but when I read about the dragon frying him, I put the book down and laughed, hysterically and for a while. I couldn't believe how gullible that I had been about the dragons. Of course they fry people. It was just another way for the author to tell us that he is writing a realistic story instead of a fairy tale.

LONG LIVE QUENTYN MARTELL !!!

and may we all learn from his example... Don't fuck with the dragons...

[LAJN]

He had a character arc, he provided detail to the war around Slaver's Bay, and to the world in general.

He was also a red herring in the context of Dance by itself, as well as another chance for GRRM to illustrate the folly of "honourable" men who do stupid things in the name of honour and duty.

[Amae Koromo]

1- To ensure that Dorne will side with Aegon rather than her.

Quentyn's two friends were VERY pissed off with the way she treated him. It seemed to me that they genuinely hate her due to that.

2- To make Daenerys even more unlikable than she already was.

[LAJN]

I really liked Quentyn, but he was set out to fail in the first chapter.

Actually, I kept expecting he would somehow succeed against the odds, as that would have been much more shocking in GRRM's world. But nope. Burnt to a crisp. GRRM is true to his inherent sensibilities as ever.

I did wonder how things would have turned out if he had better information or a stronger personality. Dany likes people who come in large and in charge, who she can butt heads with. Meekly sneaking in with a letter was not going to impress her at all. I wonder what her reaction would have been if Quentyn had flat out called her out on Meeren "What the hell are you doing here? You are the rightful Queen of Westeros. You're Seven Kingdoms are in disarray. Get your ass there now." It might have turned her on... and got her moving.

Alas, Quentyn was too polite and nice for GRRM's world. Poor kid.

PS. "The Prince was three days dying." GRRM... you ASSHOLE. Ugh. :(

You're right he was too young for the mission set out for him by Doran. But it was foolishness together with brass you know whats that got him into that hell pit, trying to tame a dragon by himself with a whip. That plan was so insane it, that it makes sense.

[Fishy]

1- To ensure that Dorne will side with Aegon rather than her.

Quentyn's two friends were VERY pissed off with the way she treated him. It seemed to me that they genuinely hate her due to that.

2- To make Daenerys even more unlikable than she already was.

His friends should be able to see that it was their Lord that made the mistakes here not Dany. Sure they have every right to be pissed about the way she treated him, but they even told him to leave. He refused to do so, to blame Dany for this would be very pity. Somewhat understandable, but I think in time they will realize she had nothing to do with this and that they were the once that made the mistake. They came to late, and should have left after but Quentyn refused to do so even though Selmy and Dany told them too.

You're right he was too young for the mission set out for him by Doran. But it was foolishness together with brass you know whats that got him into that hell pit, trying to tame a dragon by himself with a whip. That plan was so insane it, that it makes sense.

For some part of the chapter I was really hoping it would work, at one moment I even thought it might, and then he died. Well got burned badly and then died slowly over a 3 day period. As for to young, I don't think the Martells had much of a choice really. They needed Dany back and needed her back soon. After all now is near the perfect time to strike at Westeros and they realized that. Dany would need to return, more important they needed to make sure they still had a marriage alliance with Viserys dead and all. So really they weren't left with a lot of options.

[lokisnow]

I hadn't even thought of how Dorne (and Doran) is going to react to this. Nice call.

Although I think it could turn out a few ways. I can envision a scenario in which they blame Dany because it was a dragon that took Quent out, but I can also envision a scenario in which Drink and Archibald make it back to Dorne and explain to Doran what happened.

Much faster than a six month voyage (dangerous seas this time of year too) back to Dorne would be Sarella seeing her brother's death in the glass candle, assume Dany had her dragon torch Quentyn deliberately, and notify Doran via Raven. But I dunno if that's how glass candles work or not. :-p

**

Quentyn was there because he gave us eyes and ears from Volantis to Slaver's Bay and most importantly gave us an outsider's perspective in Meereen that neither Dany or Selmy could provide (as they see the same thing, up until Dany leaves). True, it was Selmy's POV that unlocked the knot, because Quentyn wasn't working to untie it, and perhaps if George had another year to write he would have reshuffled Meereen to write Quentyn out, but I doubt it and that's because:

Quentyn had to free the dragons. The dragons were going to be killed that night, while Selmy was distracted with his coup, Shavepate would ensure that the Dragons died. Then, Selmy, without dragons and having arrested the king is in a very tough position and the Meereenese are in a good position, the dragons neutralized, the king neutered and the Yunkai ready to leave once the dragons are gone. Quentyn disrupted those plans and threw all of Meereen into chaos and confusion, it's likely the dragons took out a substantially important faction of the Harpy's sons as well as striking terror into the hearts of all of Dany's enemies. I don't think the dragons had time to escape on their own, they were a ticking plot bomb, and the Meereenese had to rid themselves of them in case Dany returned.

Additionally, Quentyn had to die in order that Doran would support Aegon, and to clear the way for Aegon to marry Arianne.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I think Dany missed out by not marying him. He was a nice guy, he was a romantic, he traveled around the world in the hopes of marrying the most beautiful girl in the world and knew he would probably fail but tried anyway. He was his father's son and didn't deserve to die. He was the type of guy that I would want my daughter to marry. So don't hate on the guy he knew he didn't really have a chance but he knew it was his duty and he tried his best anyway.