[ADwD Spoilers] Quentyn Martell

[corbon]

So we could have a sun that "rises in the west and sets in the east."

Brilliant.

Now, what were the other parts of that prophecy/curse?

Something about a mountain blowing in the wind or similar?

<crackpot alert> Gregorstein?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

If I'm not mistaken, that sun rises and sets prophecy was about Drogo becoming himself again. He's already dead so I don't know how its relevant now?

[Howdyphillip]

If I'm not mistaken, that sun rises and sets prophecy was about Drogo becoming himself again. He's already dead so I don't know how its relevant now?

Actually, you are correct. The prophesies are not about Danny's fertility. but include it in the Sun, seas and mountain statements about bringing Khal Drogo back.

[Maia]

I really love Quentyn's chapters and his story. He was, despite his birth, an ordinary guy thrown into extraordinary circumstances and like most in such a situation, he didn't manage to beat the odds. He was very sympathetic and relateable, though.

And besides all the other things that have been mentioned, Quentyn also provided insight into Doran. I mean, Quentyn was Doran's preferred child, the one who Doran felt he could confide in since the boy's early age. And then it turns out that Quentyn was just this naive guy, educated, yes, but barely more sophisticated than Brienne.

Also, Doran indeed intended to marry Arianne to Viserys (personally, I used to think that Doran knew about Aegon's survival and used Viserys as a distraction, like we know know Varys/Illyrio did, but clearly not) and had no clue whatsoever how hopeless Viserys was... despite Viserys staying for a time with folks that Doran had contact with, like Archont of Tyrosh.

Basically, Doran's plans for vengeance and retribution were revealed as completely inept. He didn't manage to send anybody to educate and protect Viserys after Willem Darry's death when Viserys was left to fend for himself and Dany as a boy of 12 or so. He seemingly didn't manage to get accurate reports on Viserys's personality at a later date. _And_ he didn't train Arianne to be a political asset to her intended/ shore up Viserys's shortcomings.

I am genuinely curious how Doran managed to convince Oberyn to go along with this bilge for 14 years.

Speaking of Dornish reactions, I expect they'll be reactions to Aegon proclaiming himself, since barring magic, I don't see the news of Quentyn's death arriving any time soon. In fact, I strongly suspect that Dany may finally arrive to Westeros before news of Quentyn's demise does.

[Lord Godric]

Quentyn served one single purpose in this story for me. And that was making me really begin to hate Daenerys. When Dany refused marrying Quentyn and the alliance with Dorne because her people in her city of Mereen needed her, I lost respect for her. Certainly she found herself again in the Dothraki Sea, but Dany should never have forgotten that this wasn't her battle. By refusing Quentyn's marriage proposal and accepting to marry Hizdahr she successfully made it harder for herself to invade Westeros and lost herself potential allies.

[Reyne]

Brilliant.

Now, what were the other parts of that prophecy/curse?

Something about a mountain blowing in the wind or similar?

<crackpot alert> Gregorstein?

This is a theory that's already been posted for a while (including by me)

In short:

Sun rises in west and sets in east - Quentyn. Possibly Dorne as well ('rising' against the Lannisters.)

Sea dries up - the Dothraki sea in Dany's last chapter (suffering from drought)

Mountains blow away like wind - the Pyramid of Hazkar collapsed into a smoking ruin

Then Dany's womb will quicken again... - It's heavily implied in her last chapter that the berries she ate were an abortifacient and she miscarried as a result (can't remember having her period in ages.)

And bear a living child - ?

And Drogo will return - ?

[Pate Peet]

Quentyn seemed like a Viserys, through a glass lightly.

Quentyn = Doing his duty, doing what he thinks is the right way to get what he wants, not just deserving it.

Viserys = Demanding and everyone else be damned.

He also gave us a Westeros/Dorne view on the events of the East.

There is a lot of East to West and West to East imagery going on through out the story.

I was sad to seem him go.

[Greyjoy Rebellion]

I just put up a new thread (pending approval) that contains a theory that may provide meaning to Quentyn's death.

Martin needed to turn Dorne back against Dany. Why? Because Connington and "Aegon" need allies. Quentyn dies, the survivors tell Doran about how Dany "laughed" at him, Doran extends his realm to Connington, just as Dany/Jon/Tyrion meet up at the Wall and are summoned to Bran, who is being mentored by Bloodraven.

"Aegon"/Connington/Dorne and the Golden Company (Bittersteel) vs. Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Bran (Bloodraven)

Aegon is ultimately revealed as actually a Blackfyre descendent, and this is the "final" rebellion.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I just put up a new thread (pending approval) that contains a theory that may provide meaning to Quentyn's death.

Martin needed to turn Dorne back against Dany. Why? Because Connington and "Aegon" need allies. Quentyn dies, the survivors tell Doran about how Dany "laughed" at him, Doran extends his realm to Connington, just as Dany/Jon/Tyrion meet up at the Wall and are summoned to Bran, who is being mentored by Bloodraven.

"Aegon"/Connington/Dorne and the Golden Company (Bittersteel) vs. Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Bran (Bloodraven)

Aegon is ultimately revealed as actually a Blackfyre descendent, and this is the "final" rebellion.

Will we get the Dunk and Egg books complimentary to TWOW and ADOS?

[The Stranger]

Quentyn is useful solely because now Doran can get a Sad Panda letter from the east, and finally say "Ah, fuck it. Unleash the Sand Snakes."

[unkle]

quentyn was doran's plan B because of viserys untimely death. arianne and viserys would have been one hell of a show. quentyn was probably trying to live up to his father's expecations and dorne's survival by getting on top of the dragon. i dont think anyone expected a lot of this venture except probably doran. i think viserys would have been more open to arianne because of his impatience. dany's unexpectedly slow pace is what ruined this plan.

i dont think quentyn was some sort of subversive riff on your typical fantasy hero. that was eddard stark. quentyn is basiclaly dragon bait. i think his death is to disabuse us of any notion that teh dragons are empaths and are destined for some hero. they are wild animals and weapons of war. no different than say elephants except they are far much dangerous and implacable when aroused.

[Targaryen loyalist]

Quentyn storyline is important for some reasons:

- in AFFC, to tell us that Dorne never forgets

- in ADWD, to show us some aspects of the East and of Mereen and to free Viseryon and Rahegal

But most of all, to create a casus belli between Dany and Dorne, shifting Doran's (and Arianne's) attention from Dany to Aegon IV (fake or true).

[Lord of War]

What really sucks about Quentyn is that he pretty much did everything right when calming the first dragon until everything went to hell. I am totally convinced that if there was only that one dragon and he didn't bring those other insane people along he would have been in charge. Or maybe I'm just crazy and didn't read it properly

[El Pinko Grande]

What really sucks about Quentyn is that he pretty much did everything right when calming the first dragon until everything went to hell. I am totally convinced that if there was only that one dragon and he didn't bring those other insane people along he would have been in charge. Or maybe I'm just crazy and didn't read it properly

That was the impression I got, too. He might have been okay even with two dragons if people didn't start shooting crossbows. Once that happened, the whip may have seemed hostile to the dragons whereas before it might not have.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

He's the Ned of this book <shrug>...

[reiver]

I did quite like the Quentyn chapters but when the book was over i did wonder if they were so necessary, especially when there was a large amount of things unresolved and maybe space could have been better used. A lot of what he did; tour of free cities, sellsword life, westeros perspective on eastern culture; was at least partially covered by Tyrion and Astapor we heard about anyway through Dany chapters. Other than the Dragons, who could easily have escaped during the confusion of the mini-coup he doesn't really move the plot on at all. It does throw a bit of extra detail and texture to the world, add a few more strands of plot and motivation but for the most part it reminds me of so much of AFFC in the sense that i was wondering "is this really so important to the grand scheme?"

Assuming a satisfying conclusion to the series i wont mind these chapters at all and they may become more significant than we know but as of now they'e like eating rice crackers when you want steak.

[Amae Koromo]

His friends should be able to see that it was their Lord that made the mistakes here not Dany. Sure they have every right to be pissed about the way she treated him, but they even told him to leave. He refused to do so, to blame Dany for this would be very pity. Somewhat understandable, but I think in time they will realize she had nothing to do with this and that they were the once that made the mistake. They came to late, and should have left after but Quentyn refused to do so even though Selmy and Dany told them too.

He made mistakes. They said that themselves, IIRC.

But Daenerys still didn't treat him very well. That's what got them so angry with her.

[Ran]

I really thought Quentyn was managing, too. Shouldn't have forgotten the other dragon, though...

Poor, poor Quentyn.

"The Dragontamer" is one of the best chapters in the book, and it really only works by having a few earlier chapters for him to provide context for what he's doing and why.

[Crow's Eye]

I just put up a new thread (pending approval) that contains a theory that may provide meaning to Quentyn's death.

Martin needed to turn Dorne back against Dany. Why? Because Connington and "Aegon" need allies. Quentyn dies, the survivors tell Doran about how Dany "laughed" at him, Doran extends his realm to Connington, just as Dany/Jon/Tyrion meet up at the Wall and are summoned to Bran, who is being mentored by Bloodraven.

"Aegon"/Connington/Dorne and the Golden Company (Bittersteel) vs. Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Bran (Bloodraven)

Aegon is ultimately revealed as actually a Blackfyre descendent, and this is the "final" rebellion.

I like it. Not sure how it advances the metastory re: The Others, but it's still a nice parallel to the Blackfyre rebellion.

I struggled with the need for the Quentyn chapters when I was reading them. It wasn't that I found him or his insights and exploits to be uninteresting, but rather that I wanted more to be happening, and (particularly after his death) I felt those chapters were largely a waste of space.

But after considering the fallout from that failed dragontaming, I have a new appreciation for the purpose of these chapters. Dorne will support Aegon (who is clearly the mummer's dragon Dany was meant to expose), and will loathe Dany for this incident. It's not just the stories from QUentyn's companions that will convince Doran and/or Arianne, but also the rumors that have been swirling all over the eastern continent about her being a bit crazy.

So now Dany has no allies in Westeros. Can she even "invade" as we have all thought before? Or will we really get a re-hash of Aegon the Conqueror, where it's just her and her two other dragon riders and a few aides and associates (and maybe the Unsullied, if they aren't left behind to hold Meereen)? I think that might be where we are headed.

[Crow's Eye]

[...]

"The Dragontamer" is one of the best chapters in the book, and it really only works by having a few earlier chapters for him to provide context for what he's doing and why.

Agreed. On reflection his "heroic" view of the whole situation and his purpose for doing it would simply not make sense to the reader if we didn't have a few chapters inside his head.

Just having him show up, get rejected, and then proceed to free the dragons would have probably had more than a few readers claiming that the motivations didn't make sense and that GRRM has lost control of the story... :rolleyes: