Lucreel Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Spoiler content from sort of all over the book:I can't decide for sure, but does it seem to anyone else like GRRM has been hinting in this book that the Knight of Flowers was Renly's gay lover?He's effeminate to begin with (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything), but when he talked about Renly a few times, it kind of seemed like they were more than just a king and his bodyguard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slychd Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Spoiler content from sort of all over the book:I can't decide for sure, but does it seem to anyone else like GRRM has been hinting in this book that the Knight of Flowers was Renly's gay lover?He's effeminate to begin with (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything), but when he talked about Renly a few times, it kind of seemed like they were more than just a king and his bodyguard?I'm not sure why I'm putting this behind spoiler tags, but I wouldn't want to spoil anyone inadvertently. There are many subtle statements made throughout the books (some with dignity and some without) that Loras and Renly are lovers, no beating us about the heads like HBO did with it, but TV is a different medium.) The main one that sticks in my mind was when Tyrion was questioning Loras about being so young to join the Kingsguard and asked him about things that might interfere, like love. Loras answers to the effect of "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it." I think that is probably one of the most romantic lines I have ever heard, and is probably one of my favorite lines ever written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned'sHead Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 You haven't watched the HBO show yet, have you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucreel Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 You haven't watched the HBO show yet, have you?Nope. Probably get the DVDs from Netflix when they get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The answer to your question is, yes, there have been subtle hints scattered throughout the books. For the record, the Rainbow Guard is not one of them, that was a complete coincidence. The HBO show, feeling that readers wouldn't pick up the subtle hints, made it a great deal more blunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stephen Bell Jr. Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 The answer to your question is, yes, there have been subtle hints scattered throughout the books. For the record, the Rainbow Guard is not one of them, that was a complete coincidence. The HBO show, feeling that readers wouldn't pick up the subtle hints, made it a great deal more blunt.The rainbow guard wasn't one of them? I am sorry but that seems like a pretty tongue-in-cheek way of broaching that topic. To say that it was a coincidence is to say that Martin had no idea that the rainbow was a symbol appropriated by members of the gay community, and unless he has said that somewhere himself I cannot bring myself to believe that. Actually even if he did say that himself I would struggle to take him seriously.But more to the point of the thread, yeah I would say they are apparently homosexual. Actually there are several characters that appear to be gay as well, or at least that interpretation is reasonable. Here I am specifically thinking of Brynden Tully and his refusal to take a wife no matter what Hoster says, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Me Roar! Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yes, they certainly made it quite blunt in the TV show. LOL.About that line Skychd mentioned: wow. I never even interpreted it the way you did. I must have been half asleep or something because the meaning of it is blatantly obvious now that I see you mention it. Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucreel Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yes, they certainly made it quite blunt in the TV show. LOL.About that line Skychd mentioned: wow. I never even interpreted it the way you did. I must have been half asleep or something because the meaning of it is blatantly obvious now that I see you mention it. Nice!That was one of the lines I took as a hint. . . but by itself, it's vague who it might be referring to. It's *possible* that it was referring to someone else, but then with other later things that the KoF's says, it all just seems to fit together to form a complete picture, seems to me.There was one line where he talks about Renly and him being in his tent and they were (pause while he searches for what to say). . . praying. LOL. The hesitation made me think they were doing something other than praying. Like I said, for me, it wasn't anyone thing, but the whole of all the little different things taken together.As for the Rainbow Guard. . . I tend to agree that probably wasn't a hint. This is not 20th century earth, so applying any symbolism from here and now to a story on another world at another time doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable way of interpreting the text (I can't completely rule it out, but just doesn't seem like a great way of interpretation). I think they took the Rainbow Cloaks because pretty much all other colors and combinations have been taken.There's already white cloaks, gold cloaks, black cloaks, red cloaks, grey cloaks, I think some of the lesser houses have green cloaks, blue cloaks, purple cloaks, pink cloaks, etc. Not sure if anyone had any silver cloaks, but I suspect it was probably hard to make a shiny silver that didn't just look like grey in a medieval technological level. Using grey could be ambiguous since Starks use grey.In short, I think a Rainbow was just a convenient way of having a very distinct color set to make it obvious who Renly's Kingsguard was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stephen Bell Jr. Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 As for the Rainbow Guard. . . I tend to agree that probably wasn't a hint. This is not 20th century earth, so applying any symbolism from here and now to a story on another world at another time doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable way of interpreting the text (I can't completely rule it out, but just doesn't seem like a great way of interpretation). I think they took the Rainbow Cloaks because pretty much all other colors and combinations have been taken.There's already white cloaks, gold cloaks, black cloaks, red cloaks, grey cloaks, I think some of the lesser houses have green cloaks, blue cloaks, purple cloaks, pink cloaks, etc. Not sure if anyone had any silver cloaks, but I suspect it was probably hard to make a shiny silver that didn't just look like grey in a medieval technological level. Using grey could be ambiguous since Starks use grey.In short, I think a Rainbow was just a convenient way of having a very distinct color set to make it obvious who Renly's Kingsguard was.I think we are conflicting on what is meant by the word "hint" as far as a text goes, or perhaps we should simply iron out some basic definitions. There are hints like the ones Stannis drops with his comment about Margery dying a maid because she is married to Renly, or "Renly's rose" etc. Then there are moments or comments that are meant to draw perhaps less in-world specific connections for the average reader but rather allusions to pop culture etc., and you see these throughout the series. For instance one character famously echoing "The Princess Bride" during one pivotal scene, or a certain band of eunuchs bearing a striking resemblance to tales told of the ancient Spartans, etc.The rainbow of course has no in-world significance as a symbol for homosexuality (at least nothing to the degree it has in our world) but it can be read as GRRM giving his readers a sort of wink as we come across the passages. He seems to be playing around with stereotypes in what I am sure is intended a as purely tongue-in-cheek manner. Much like he does when he mentions multiple times that Renly is such a magnificent dresser etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucreel Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 You know, I had a bit of a random thought - Loras and Brienne might make a good couple. He's gay and she's a woman built like a man. Lol. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 When I say that the Rainbow Guard wasn't a hint, I mean it. It was a complete accident.Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stephen Bell Jr. Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 When I say that the Rainbow Guard wasn't a hint, I mean it. It was a complete accident.HereYeah, I am not buying that one say what he will. His random choice was merely fortuitous I guess heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zmflavius Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Suit yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stephen Bell Jr. Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Suit yourself.Suture yourself, as the surgeons say. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sDad Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 There was one line where he talks about Renly and him being in his tent and they were (pause while he searches for what to say). . . praying. LOL. The hesitation made me think they were doing something other than praying. Like I said, for me, it wasn't anyone thing, but the whole of all the little different things taken together.That one pointed it out. I think the most obvious (and probably the crudest) I came across was from Jaime. At some point he's berating Loras, and says "Sheathe your sword, or I'll shove it up some place even Renly never found." The fact that even a heartbeat latter, when things have cooled just a bit, nobody says anything along the lines of "he's not that sort of person", was an ah-ha for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silmarien Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Spoiler content from sort of all over the book: I can't decide for sure, but does it seem to anyone else like GRRM has been hinting in this book that the Knight of Flowers was Renly's gay lover? He's effeminate to begin with (although that doesn't necessarily mean anything), but when he talked about Renly a few times, it kind of seemed like they were more than just a king and his bodyguard? Renly and Loras are gay, yes. It isn't explicit, but suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ile de Le Fleur Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 There's a lot of hints scattered about, some subtle some not so (as someone else eloquently stated) One of my favorites is when some people (I think Tyrion is involved) are discussing Margaery's maidenhood, and someone proclaims "with Renly as her husband she's like to remain a maiden." I may have gotten that quote and setting all mixed up but you get the gist... As for the Rainbow Guard. . . I tend to agree that probably wasn't a hint. This is not 20th century earth, so applying any symbolism from here and now to a story on another world at another time doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable way of interpreting the text (I can't completely rule it out, but just doesn't seem like a great way of interpretation). I think they took the Rainbow Cloaks because pretty much all other colors and combinations have been taken. I have to disagree, there are PLENTY of times when GRRM subtly breaks the fourth wall... for instance in GoT there are 3 characters who's names resemble Larry, Curly, and Moe (of the 3 stooges) GRRM has stated that this was his intention... IMO to miss the correlation between Rainbow Guard and Renly's sexuality is just denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeSay Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yes, they certainly made it quite blunt in the TV show. LOL. About that line Skychd mentioned: wow. I never even interpreted it the way you did. I must have been half asleep or something because the meaning of it is blatantly obvious now that I see you mention it. Nice! I am going through the series for the second time, and passed that line recently - it clicked for me then. This of course, after watching the series, and reading more closely for all kinds of subtleties... nonetheless, it jumped out at me as further indication of their relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Roaring Bear Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 That was one of the lines I took as a hint. . . but by itself, it's vague who it might be referring to. It's *possible* that it was referring to someone else, but then with other later things that the KoF's says, it all just seems to fit together to form a complete picture, seems to me.There was one line where he talks about Renly and him being in his tent and they were (pause while he searches for what to say). . . praying. LOL. The hesitation made me think they were doing something other than praying. Like I said, for me, it wasn't anyone thing, but the whole of all the little different things taken together.As for the Rainbow Guard. . . I tend to agree that probably wasn't a hint. This is not 20th century earth, so applying any symbolism from here and now to a story on another world at another time doesn't exactly seem like a reasonable way of interpreting the text (I can't completely rule it out, but just doesn't seem like a great way of interpretation). I think they took the Rainbow Cloaks because pretty much all other colors and combinations have been taken.There's already white cloaks, gold cloaks, black cloaks, red cloaks, grey cloaks, I think some of the lesser houses have green cloaks, blue cloaks, purple cloaks, pink cloaks, etc. Not sure if anyone had any silver cloaks, but I suspect it was probably hard to make a shiny silver that didn't just look like grey in a medieval technological level. Using grey could be ambiguous since Starks use grey.In short, I think a Rainbow was just a convenient way of having a very distinct color set to make it obvious who Renly's Kingsguard was.We can't forget the jab Jaime makes to Loras about sticking something somewhere in him even Renly hadnt looked or something or other.As far as the rainbow guard.... Yes, it is not earth and symbols do not mean the same. However, it is being told to us here in the 20th century where such things have connotations and associations. Though in Westeros the Rainbow may not mean anything, I believe it is a little nod to the reader to take something from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I had ignored the various cited remarks about Loras and Renly, though taken all together the make a good case for them being homosexual. Altouhg it's unlikely Margaery will die a maid if an heir is needed. Quite a few gay men are fathers, and a stand-in could likely be found if necessary, maybe one of Robert's bastards to keep it in the family.Regarding the rainbow symbolism, it must be a generational thing, 'cause I don't associate rainbows with homosexuality. More with Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition, pots of gold, even the end of the Biblical deluge.So those unicorns pissing rainbows are gay symbols? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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