[ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys and fertility

[Senshi Soldier]

The miscarriage sounds pretty convincing. I didn't completely make that connection till I came here. But I also took the sign of her bleeding as a pretty strong signal that she was indeed fertile. That immediately followed by the entrance of another Khal. I couldn't help thinking that maybe Drogo could be a child between her and Jhaqo. I have difficulty seeing a connection between her vision of Drogo (A man with the almond eyes and copper skin of a Dothraki and her silvery hair) into Drogon. I think she may have just named the dragon that because she thought she was infertile and wanted to use the name. The vision of him seemed very specific and has always stuck with me. I would like to see her with another Khal because she seems to have a thing for men with mustachios and long dark hair.

Could just be my wishful thinking, though.

[howland_reed]

Can anybody post the full quotation from the MMD prophecy? I'm at work and can't reference the book, but I'm curious as to what exactly Dany asks that leads to the statement from MMD.

I'll have to wait till I get back from work to reference GoT, but at least on the TV show, I remember Dany's words being, "When will he be as he was?"

Don't forget that when Dany posed the question to MMD, Drogo wasn't dead, but catatonic. And Dany was the one who later smothered all life out of him.

I'm of the opinion though that "Drogo returning to her," is metaphorical for Drogon. But even then, the dragons hadn't hatched yet, and I doubt MMD saw them in Dany's future. So who knows what MMD really foresaw? But I'm pretty sure she purposely framed her answer so as to mislead Dany into thinking that Drogo would never return to her, by listing a bunch of impossibilities.

[Marix]

I don't understand why people are putting so much significance on this miscarriage. The prophecy is that Drogo will be as he was when she conceives AND bears a living child. She hasn't. Many women can get pregnant without ever carrying to term. It's heartbreaking, but just because she can conceive one doesn't mean she can bear one.

[Daeron Targaryen]

But Drogo is ashes so either the "prophecy" is null and void or it has another meaning. I think the latter is true, otherwise why recall it word for word after five books (and 3 years in booktime)? The idea that Drogo=Drogon is very interesting especially if Victarion will be able to steal him form dany with the magic horn. Otherwise I believe that it is metaphorical for a person that she will love as much as she loved Drogo. Corny, but we know that love will play an important part in Dany's story since the HotU.

[Sasha Steelsong]

It was not a prophecy necessarily, it was probably meant as a curse. And curses might fail.

I read it is more of a curse too but regardless it doesn't really matter because it was not a curse pertaining to Dani's fertility but to when she would be reunited with Drogo (i.e. he would come back to her). MMD did say something re Dany's ability to have children (and don't have the book in front of me atm) but the "sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas run dry" was not part of that. That was all about when she would get her husband back in truth not just the shell MMD gave her.

With his physical return an impossibility unless ash can reform, I actually think it means that she'll die in childbirth and be reunited with Drogo after she gives birth to her child/heir to the throne.

[Senshi Soldier]

I was thinking about the mountains. Not many mountains that really stand out. But what about the pyramids?

[ProCannonFodder]

The problem in my opinion with all of these miscarriage explanations is we're forgetting about magic. This is a world where a girl can survive immolation by fire, so why can't MMD's curse be responsible for stopping Dani's monthly flow? When the conditions are met, everything starts working again. I think that the scene shows Dani is now fertile and the curse is over.

First post btw, hello to everyone.

[irith]

Dying in childbirth seems to me to be the most fitting end for Dany in the series as a whole. I do think she'll win Westeros in the end, but I can't see GRRM letting her live out her days as the beautiful Queen of Westeros in a new golden age.

So put me in the dying in childbirth camp.

[Selmy]

The problem in my opinion with all of these miscarriage explanations is we're forgetting about magic. This is a world where a girl can survive immolation by fire, so why can't MMD's curse be responsible for stopping Dani's monthly flow? When the conditions are met, everything starts working again. I think that the scene shows Dani is now fertile and the curse is over.

First post btw, hello to everyone.

As far as I'm aware, there's no indication in the books that Dany hasn't had a period since giving birth. I think people just assume that's the case. In fact, aside from Dany's own concerns about the prophecy, there isn't a lot to suggest that she was ever infertile.

I think she's been having her period as when she starts to bleed, she doesn't seem overly concerned. Surprises at the heaviness perhaps, but not the same sort of shocked of suddenly having a period after not having one for a year or two.

Secondly, she hasn't been having sex with men prior to Daario, It'd be one thing is she was sleeping around a lot and not getting pregnant, but that's not the case.

[Wouter]

There also seems to be a connection between Dany, dragons, and blood. From pg. 100 in GoT, Dany's dream about "waking the dragon" was accompanied by the onset of her first period. It is after her blood sacrifice (of her unborn child/Drogo) that the dragon eggs hatch. And now her bonding with Drogon is also sealed with the return of her bleeding.

I think it's likely that Drogon is both "The Stallion Who Mounts the World" and "Drogo" returned. To Drogon/Stallion who Mounts the World: no one ever said her "son" had to be human, she refers to the dragons as her children, and is is after all the "black egg with scarlet swirls" (GOT paperback, 156) that she asks for and clings to following her miscarriage. If anyone/thing is going to be possible to "mount" the world, I'd put my money on a Dragon who can burn Westeros to ash over the conqueror power of one man. Plus, if Dragon = Stallion who mounts the world, well, Dany is mounted on the Stallion. This allows her to be the great conqueror herself rather than the mother or wife of one.

I also think it's possible that Drogon's bonding with Dany may be Drogo "returned" to her. He's violent, wild, a little out of control, and associated with Drogo's colorings. Not to mention that the name can't be purely coincidental.

So I guess there's my take on it: Dany's bleeding is the return of her menstrual cycles indicating the return of her fertility, occurring at the same time she goes east before heading west[eros], and back (Dothraki) before heading forward (Westeros). The Sun (Quent) rose/was born in the west(Westeros) "set"/ died in the East. Her final bond with Drogon is sealed with her blood. Drogo is returned to her in her bond with Drogon, just not Drogo in human form as she once thought.

Interesting idea. It may well be that Drogon is indeed the prophecy version of "Drogo returned". It would be consistent with the way prophecies in ASOIAF tend to come true, but usually not in the way imagined.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Could be that the blood wasn't for a miscarriage but her being fertile again.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who interpreted this as a miscarriage. I think it was clear that it was to the reader but not to Dany...we'll see where this goes from here.

I am also pretty sure that the child would have been Dario's. It didn't seem that she and Hizdahr had more than one sexual encounter-to consummate the marriage.

[johnatthebar]

If Dany's not barren, it's bad news for her, since that's the best case for her having acquired a life-saving disability. Disability in aSoiaF = GRRM immunity.

[Baitac]

I am just a young girl, etc. as I just finished the books, but here are my views: I think that Daenerys' baby did not die. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that only Mirri had seen the baby. One of Dani's ladies could have taken it, knowing that Drogo was about to die and the khalasar would be passed on to someone else. I also think that when "Drogo comes back" will be when she sees her son come back, as he will look like Drogo, except for her hair. For sure Dani had a miscarriage coupled with a bad case of the berries. Is being barren being unable to conceive or able to carry a child? If it's unable to conceive, then it would appear that she is not barren.

[Queensmoot]

I think she had a miscarriage, but as has been noted above, Targ's can get sick - King Daeron II and Prince Matarys died during the Great Spring Sickness during the Dunk and Egg era.

[Ladywhiskers]

I also think the prophecy is "true" but not in the way Dany interpreted it (as with all asoiaf prophecies). And that is why GRRM gives us a textbook example of an early miscarriage.

A missed period due to stress or starvation would return after a some time in peace and after regaining lost weight, not when she is at her sickest and most starving.

To me it seems as if George did good research on this, cause it was really well done. Often I read male writers describing menstruation, miscarriages, pregnancies, labour and I cringe, you know, that's not how it works. The only thing I objected a little to is that Dany seems to have her periods perfectly timed by the full moon, which is a little cliche- and most women aren't nearly that regular with a perfect generic 28 day cycle.

I thought that, too. It was very well done. I do think that if there were a woman whose periods would be perfectly timed, though, it would be Danaerys. It makes sense for it to be a miscarriage, but I don't think this is her "fertility returning," rather, it's proof that the curse is working. She can get pregnant. She just can't bring it to term.

As for whether barren means you can't get pregnant, or you can't bear children, it's been used to mean both. The end result is the same: no kids.

The wording of MMD's curse/prophecy was this: "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

This means not until she actually bears a living, breathing, baby. Not a period, not a dead baby like Rhaego, a living one. And in a world where people can use magic to hatch 200-year-old dragon's eggs, survive immolation by fire, take over other peoples' bodies and reanimate corpses, making a prophecy or placing a curse should be child's play. This is a world in which people heal by using magic. They cut off children's genitals to use in spells. And of all the people in the world to tell whether Danaerys will have children again, I should think the woman who was most recently digging around in her actual womb would be THE most reliable authority. This is why it's important to choose your midwife carefully.

I don't think there's a Rhaego running around out there, for the simple reason that MMD wouldn't have carefully fostered out Khal Drogo's baby. A woman who would abuse her healing powers to kill her enemy, isn't going to be squeamish about using her midwife powers to poison or smother a fetus. In her own words, "He would have been the stallion who mounts the world." She was doing the world a favor by killing him. And kill him she did, either by charms or by simple medicine.

I don't think it's a prophecy, I think it's a curse. Curses can be broken, but I haven't seen any mountains blowing like leaves in the wind in this story--not even Gregor Clegane. Yes, we have a dry sea (but she said seas, so just the Dothraki sea isn't enough.)

Would it advance the plot at all, for Khal Drogo to reappear? Why do we want him to?

[Ser Vaunt]

You know, up til then I'd assumed Mirri's curse that killed Rhaego had disabled her reproductive organs (which is why her having a child was listed among the impossible things), meaning she didn't have periods anymore as if she'd had a hysterectomy, but I guess that's clearly not the case.

If that had been the case she would have realized that.

[Baitac]

If you can bring back a king's baby that was murdered, you can certainly bring back a baby that wasn't confirmed dead by anyone other than a very angry witch, a baby who wasn't even buried or in his culture, burned. There's no way that a Khaleesi's baby would not be checked out by others at some point. Plus, Mormont was still in the employ of Varys no? I consider him to be a very unreliable witness when it comes to Rhaego's birth/death. I too do not think that Drogo's reappearance advances the plot, which is why I have this inkling that she will see her husband's lookalike son come back later in life, after she has borne another child.

Another thing: I'm thinking that there is no way that Rhaego was born deformed and dragon-looking. He was the son of two regular people, dragon blood or no. Plenty of Targaryens have intermarried and/or married outside of their house and their babies were not baby/dragon combos. Targaryens definitely get sick, if mental illness/madness can occur, then they aren't infallible, they are just fireproof!

[nategatorc]

Personally I think that the Meereen chapters prove that whilst Dany is a great conqueror she is not a great ruler.

I think that has been the standard with House Targ. After all, they established the institution of the King's Hand where someone else did the ruling for the King.

[Brucolac]

I am pretty convinced Dany was pregnant and that it was a misscairage.

I don't think that is really a prophecy, she just doesn't think Dany will ever have children again and includes it along with several other things that will never happen. I don't think you have to look for signs of the other things just because it looks like she had a miscarriage. She was just wrong about the condition Dany was in, her fate changed from what the magi had seen, or the ribirth of dragons and magic have changed the vision she saw.