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Anyone else's opinion of Jaime change...?


Mattyp

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Whilst reading Jaime's chapters my opinion of him has started to change greatly, and I now almost sympathise with him. He is a pawn of Cersei and has no grasp of their 'true' relationship, or his sister's sickening ways. I was genuinely shocked when he lost his hand, and thought it was a great move by GRRM to actually make the reader question their own 'desire' for the Lannister's to suffer. His motives for striking down 'The mad King' seem just, and hell I can't blame him for that.

He was easy to hate as a self assured cocky antagonist, but now he is starting to come out as a more sympathetic character. Saving Brienne definitely helped me feel a lot warmer towards his character. I have read up to the Wilding attack on Castle Black, so have had the full emotional impact of the Red Wedding, yet I still feel that some of the best writing so far has been in GRRM's ability to make me not hate Jaime. That is something I did not think would be possible...I mean he pushed Bran out of a window!?

Anyone else slowly becoming more of a 'Jaime' sympathiser? And please no spoilers after the Castle Black attack.

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Yes, I've not read as far as you, nut I'm reluctantly starting to have feelings of sympathy towards Jamie. GRRM really shines when it comes to making his characters nuanced and giving them depth, but it sometimes leaves me grasping desperately for a true protagonist. :) They all have sides to like and dislike, which is as it should be, but I'm not very accustomed to it.

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The characters,their story arcs, and their good and bad sides are very well thought out, no doubt. Even Cersai who plays the game very well knowing that this is a game in which you win or you die. Jaime's story arc is very interesting at this point, as opposed to Arya's getting more and more pointless.

I think it is very well done that Jaime loses his sword hand, because now he is forced to cultivate other abilities to survive in GRRM's cut-throat universe, much like Tyrion. I am looking forward to Jaime's interaction with Tyrion, and Tywin's reaction to what happened to Jaime. Also, whether Cersai will accept a cripple brother into her bed.

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The characters,their story arcs, and their good and bad sides are very well thought out, no doubt. Even Cersai who plays the game very well knowing that this is a game in which you win or you die. Jaime's story arc is very interesting at this point, as opposed to Arya's getting more and more pointless.

I think it is very well done that Jaime loses his sword hand, because now he is forced to cultivate other abilities to survive in GRRM's cut-throat universe, much like Tyrion. I am looking forward to Jaime's interaction with Tyrion, and Tywin's reaction to what happened to Jaime. Also, whether Cersai will accept a cripple brother into her bed.

I'm glad that I am not alone in my frustration with Arya's story arc! So many people seem to gush about her character, yet I find myself getting massively frustrated at how she has travelling so far, yet done so little.

I am massively looking forward to Jaime arriving. He seems to be taking ages to get there though, the chapter between leaving Harrenhal and his next chapter are massively far apart, and yet somehow Roose Bolton manages to get from Harrenhal to the Twins before Jaime can even get back to Kings Landing! :stunned:

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I'm sorry there's just something inside me that just prevents me from like Jaime. I think it has to do with the whole Bran episode, mostly because he is so callous in the way he just pushes him out the window. As a knight, his lack of regard for human life must be close to zero at that point. And if we are to believe the truth about the Dagger, he wasn't even interested in trying to finish the job which would have been a mercy.

Granted, I think by taking away his sword skills it makes him a more likable character because he can't be so cocky all the time. Before losing his hand, he's pretty confident that he can win any contest with a sword so he can feel superior to all others. Now he is forced to re-evaluate how he relates to the world, setting up comparisons to Tyrion. Then again, if it takes something like losing a limb to not make you a jerk, I think his core is always going to be rotten.

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That's definitely not how Martin wants you to evaluate Jaime at this point, but that's certainly your right to an opinion. Jaime is extremely complex, maybe one of the most complex characters in the series. He was always my favorite character even as a villain, but by the end of ASOS (minor spoiler about the direction of a character)

he's clearly developed into a protagonist and one I have no problem rooting for.

Him showing remorse for pushing Bran, however small a detail, was what sealed the deal for me

I don't think Jaime having to lose his hand to reevaluate himself is proof of anything, especially not him always being rotten "to the core". It is entirely normal for events like this (loss of a loved one, limb, etc) to be the cause of great change for a person.

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That's definitely not how Martin wants you to evaluate Jaime at this point, but that's certainly your right to an opinion. Jaime is extremely complex, maybe one of the most complex characters in the series. He was always my favorite character even as a villain, but by the end of ASOS (minor spoiler about the direction of a character)

he's clearly developed into a protagonist and one I have no problem rooting for.

Him showing remorse for pushing Bran, however small a detail, was what sealed the deal for me

I don't think Jaime having to lose his hand to reevaluate himself is proof of anything, especially not him always being rotten "to the core". It is entirely normal for events like this (loss of a loved one, limb, etc) to be the cause of great change for a person.

He really is coming into his own. The fact that he did not grieve at all for *Joffery's Wedding spoiler*

Joffery's death

helps the ease the pain of suddenly liking Jaime :lol:

It would be great to see some Lannister/Stark teamwork in the future! But that would probably be a bit too 'Hollywood' for GRRM!

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It would be great to see some Lannister/Stark teamwork in the future! But that would probably be a bit too 'Hollywood' for GRRM!

If that was to happen, I think it would be Tyrion teaming up with the Starks rather than Jaime. 'Cause the Starks need some brains! lol

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I still don't particularly like him, on a personal level, but as Christian, I'm a sucker for a redemption story. ;-)

At a personal level, I always like to believe there's hope for someone to change, to become a better person. I'm rooting for him insomuch as I want evil people to turn away from their evil, but I don't think anything that's been revealed really justifies him throwing Bran from that tower. That was a choice he made, and it was a truly awful choice.

As for the "Kingslayer" incident, I've always thought he probably got a bit of a bad rap on that, even before GRRM's additional revelations in this book. The Kingdom was in a civil war. In a civil war, you choose your side. He apparently thought that the Mad King truly did need to be deposed, so he did what had to be done. I can admire a person who can recognize that sometimes an oath *must* be broken for some greater good. (By the way, I *did* finish the book, I'm just trying to avoid spoilers here, to the extent it's not really necessary for me to spoil the additional reveals, to discuss this).

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I agree to a certain point that probably most of Westeros believed that the Mad King needed to be disposed. What I think really hurt Jaime was how he reacted in the aftermath. Instead of being remorseful and somber like a knight who'd been forced to make a terrible choice, it was almost as if he expected the entire realm to throw him a parade for his actions. It wasn't like he killed the king to directly save someone's life, sure, he probably did save countless lives as an indirect result but there was no direct need for his sword to be raised. A knight has a certain amount of responsibilities and it seems like especially at that point in his live Jamie enjoyed the idea of wearing a White Cloak more than what it actually stood for.

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I am not entirely sure what should be considered spoilers at this point in the reading, so I will try and make my comments as vague as possible while still retaining some value. I understand that GRRM wants his readers to view Jaime in a more positive light and I can say that considering in what low regard I held him after the first two books I would say that he accomplished that goal. That said, he still isn't particularly a sympathetic character (for me)and if he were to be casually killed in a later book I wouldn't sweat the decision.

I have read others opinions where they try to paint him as some romantic character that is just terribly misunderstood, but I don't see that when I read the books. Yeah, Aerys was horrible and he needed to go so I really don't care much about the "kingslaying" stuff, but the attempted murder of children is rather hard to overlook and his lack of remorse for pretty much anyone he has hurt is nearly as damning. But aside from specific events and just going into his character, his extreme arrogance and perpetual self-involvement is beyond grating. I know Martin intends him to be witty but that never comes across for me on the page, he just seems to be trying really hard to be funny and failing miserably in the endeavor (which is odd because I find Tyrion to be pretty damned clever).

His love of his sister his hardly a romantic fairytale, and not simply (not even mainly) because of the creepy incest angle, but because it has to be so purely physical that it basically is lust or psychosis or both, and since they are twins it basically amounts to more of the self-love I have already complained about. I say that it has to be mainly physical because who in their right mind could love that woman based on her personality or character who has ever talked to her for more than five minutes? If he did happen to love her for those reasons then I would think even less of him than I already do.

I would say that after reading ASOS I find him to be more sympathetic than Cersei, but is that saying very much? :huh:

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Well, it's a very ballsy move to take the guy who unrepentantly hurled a seven (?) year old out of a window to cover up incestuous sex with his sister, and try to meld him into an anti-hero. I like him, and throughout ASoS it's increasingly easier to discern his motives, but genuine sympathy didn't come to me until the final few chapters.

He's an awesome character though.

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Well, it's a very ballsy move to take the guy who unrepentantly hurled a seven (?) year old out of a window to cover up incestuous sex with his sister, and try to meld him into an anti-hero. I like him, and throughout ASoS it's increasingly easier to discern his motives, but genuine sympathy didn't come to me until the final few chapters.

He's an awesome character though.

Yeah, I give Martin credit for the attempt at least. I can almost hear him chuckling to himself thinking 'You readers think you know who you hate? Well the joke is on you because I will now redeem him!

Not so fast there chuckles. A character can't be an absolute dickhead for most of the series (of the murdering children variety)and be transformed believably by a few keystrokes. Well, apparently some of his readers have shorter memories than others and lower thresholds of accountability so I may be wrong.

I'll use an example of what I mean and it sort of works even if it is chronologically backward. Darth Vader, another villain that was redeemed at the end of his story cycle, was a bad dude that betrayed his order and was involved in the killing of many people, but the difference (at least as I see it) was that these were adult warriors who had some measure of self-defense etc., at least from what we saw onscreen. Even then some people would have a hard time with the redemption angle. This is the original trilogy that I am speaking of I must mention.

Fast forward a couple of decades to the prequels and you come to find out that Darth Vader murdered children in the last installment, and it makes it MUCH more difficult to find him sympathetic going forward. So in watching the redemption scene where he saves Luke, instead of getting the sniffles all I can see is him lighting a laser sword and barbecuing a bunch of tikes. Damn you Lucas! :angry2:

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Jaime only threw Bran out of a window. I don't remember any other child murdering of the Anakin Skywalker variety?

Bran is really irritating though, I probably would have thrown him out of a window for shits and giggles.

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Jaime only threw Bran out of a window. I don't remember any other child murdering of the Anakin Skywalker variety?

Bran is really irritating though, I probably would have thrown him out of a window for shits and giggles.

So only trying to kill a child (and a damned good try at that) is better, or only trying to kill what you personally find to be annoying children that makes it less of a problem? If it is fewer than five children is it no big deal? Just how many dead or crippled children should get a pass do you think? <_<

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So only trying to kill a child (and a damned good try at that) is better, or only trying to kill what you personally find to be annoying children that makes it less of a problem? If it is fewer than five children is it no big deal? Just how many dead or crippled children should get a pass do you think? <_<

It was a tongue in cheek comment, obviously crippling Bran is pretty bad! :lol: And it means we have to listen to his inner monologue whine about never being a knight, which is unforgivable in itself.

But as it stands Jaime's biggest crime was pushing Bran out of the window, and he may redeem himself yet (at least in my eyes). I still find him strangely likeable, the scene where he writes in the 'Kingsguard' book was one of my favourite scenes thus far.

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