Ixodes Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 What a story. Thank goodness there were people driving out in their boats to rescue the swimmers. I can't imagine what it was like to be swimming for you life, hearing the madman taunting you in between gunshots. Those poor kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 What a story. Thank goodness there were people driving out in their boats to rescue the swimmers. I can't imagine what it was like to be swimming for you life, hearing the madman taunting you in between gunshots. Those poor kids.Without random people in boats getting to the aid of the kids, the tragedy would certainly have been far worse. About 250 were picked up in the water, while a few managed to get to the mainland on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I see there's no recent posts on this topic. For those who've missed it, two psychiatrists appointed by the court have concluded that Breivik is paranoid schizophrenic and should be tried as criminally insane. It basically means that he'd be sentenced to a high-security mental health facility, rather than a standard prison.There seems to be some surprise here in Scandinavia, which surprises me in turn. A guy who informs the police he's a Knight Templar and requested that he be allow to wear his "uniform" is not exactly all together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think most people were working with the assumption that anyone who had put in that much planning couldn't have diminished capacity or whatever the term is (I am not a law-talking guy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 True, it took a lot of planning, but does that really rule out mental health issues?As I understand it, and the Norwegian system is probably different, to be declared mentally unfit for trial it has to be found that at the time of the acts the defendant wasn't capable of distinguishing right from wrong. Breivik was clearly in fantasyland 'This is Captain Anders Breivik of the Norwegian Anti-Communist Resistance', but I felt that wasn't the 'my stove was sending me demonic electromagnetic brainwaves' territory of someone without mens rea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altherion Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Doesn't this also allow them to avoid the maximum sentence restrictions?Probably. I don't know Norway's laws, but I doubt they would let somebody who believes himself to be the member of an ancient martial order to walk about after he has proven how seriously he takes this fantasy. Unless he can be medicated into sanity, they'll probably have to lock him up for the rest of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howlin' Howland Reed Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Story I had to post this because it really moved me. Account from one of the survivors. She... i mean wow the poise this girl showed in the situation is amazing. and she's 18. I was blown away. This is a link to the english translation but there is a link there to her original blog. please read.... :crying:I could not agree with GD more: Read it.There seems to be some surprise here in Scandinavia, which surprises me in turn. A guy who informs the police he's a Knight Templar and requested that he be allow to wear his "uniform" is not exactly all together.I think the surprise stems from a relatively widespread belief (and fear) that the courts will now see his actions as a "lesser" crime, somehow. That is, once you're declared criminally insane, you're no longer "really criminal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warmth of Winter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Doesn't this also allow them to avoid the maximum sentence restrictions?Well, this actually allows them to keep Breivik locked up for a longer time period then if he'd recieved the Norwegian maximum sentence, potentially for life. What it does mean, however, is that if he, after some time, is found to be "free" from his paranoid schizophrenia , they have to let him go, albeit with severe medical supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Regarding the insanity ruling, I'm surprised this surprises people these days - it seems to be something even garden variety killers get pushed toward, nevermind the extreme ones.According to this BBC article, the 'insanity defence' is brought forward in 1% of cases, and accepted in .3% of cases. (Although it's not stated, from the context I assume this apply to the US, but I doubt it's much different elsewhere.) The 'insanity defence' is probably far more common in fiction, than reality.Well, this actually allows them to keep Breivik locked up for a longer time period then if he'd recieved the Norwegian maximum sentence, potentially for life. What it does mean, however, is that if he, after some time, is found to be "free" from his paranoid schizophrenia , they have to let him go, albeit with severe medical supervision.Not quite true. If it's considered that his illness is brought under control, and thus he's deemed 'safe for society', he can be charged again in criminal court, and might end up serving a prison sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Warmth of Winter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Not quite true. If it's considered that his illness is brought under control, and thus he's deemed 'safe for society', he can be charged again in criminal court, and might end up serving a prison sentence.Wow, really? What's the difference between being charged when mentally fit and mentally unfit? The fact that he was psychotic while performing the deeds doesn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Wow, really? What's the difference between being charged when mentally fit and mentally unfit? The fact that he was psychotic while performing the deeds doesn't change.Having looked up an article on the subject, I guess I have to correct my statement somewhat.He first have to be found guilty by a criminal court in order to be committed to compulsary psychiatric treatment. It would then be up to the doctors of the facility to determine the actual treatment, but it will still be up to the court the level of security he'll be held under.Every third year his psychological state will be evaluated. As long as it's considered that he's still in need of psychaitric treatment, he'll stay in the institution. This could last for the rest of his life. If he's deemed no longer in need of treatment, but still considered a 'danger to society', he'd be transfered to a prison until he's no longer deemed a 'danger to society'.If the conclusion is that he no longer need treatment, and are no longer a danger to society, he's free to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 If the conclusion is that he no longer need treatment, and are no longer a danger to society, he's free to go.Though realistically speaking, the chance of any panel of Norwegian doctors ever signing their names to that conclusion must surely be as near zero as makes no matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quirksome Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It shouldn't be surprising that someone who is deemed to be psychotic in the medical sense can create extensive, complex plots and implement actions effectively. People often seem to equate mentally ill = incompetent planner, but having worked in a mental hospital, it's clear to me that there can be people who are diagnosed with severe paranoid/delusional schizophrenia who remain aware of the consequences of their actions and can reason clearly enough to see through a plan of action. I can only pray for solace and healing for Norway whatever happens at the trial. Though realistically speaking, the chance of any panel of Norwegian doctors ever signing their names to that conclusion must surely be as near zero as makes no matter.Unfortunately, this could happen: see Scottish doctors and alleged Lockerbie bomber al-Megrahi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Unfortunately, this could happen: see Scottish doctors and alleged Lockerbie bomber al-Megrahi.I can't see geopolitics entering into the Breivik matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Agreed, the parallel is not that close.In addition to the geopolitics: the Lockerbie bombing was state sponsored terrorism; Al-Megrahi was acting as a servant of the Libyan government; his illness had no connection to the crime; he has always protested his innocence and was in the process of appealing against his sentence when released (an appeal that many experts thought he would win).Rather consider whether any UK doctors would release, say, the Yorkshire Ripper, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quirksome Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Horza and A wildling - you're right, definitely not equivalent cases but the closest I could think of in terms of negative public opinion (admittedly not thinking too straight). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.