[ADWD Spoilers] Dorne's true strength

[Amae Koromo]

Well, they are untouched by the war so far.

Probably in a strong position

[Selmy]

I've always suspected that there isn't any major population growth or advance in technology because of the winters.

Of course we don't know how severe the winters are or if they even touch places like Dorne.

I figure if every decade there is a several year long winter where people are starving to death and just trying to survive, is drastically cuts down on population growth and advancement.

[Jon Connington's Return]

I'd argue that's a misinterpretation. Equating Valyria with the fall of the Western Empire, would place the Conquest 200 years early, and the technology we see in Westeros, barring fire arms, is consistent with a high medieval society, three hundred years later.

The part that doesn't directly jive is the evolution of knighthood. In Martin's world, knighthood wasn't an invention of the feudal period resulting in a need for horsemen; it has its apparent roots in the cataphrakt inspiration for knighthood; heavily armed (probably holy) warriors on horseback owing allegiance to the state.

Hmmm, interesting. I always got the impression that during the Age of Heroes, technology was only slightly worse than in today's world. It seems like they fight with the same weapons, eat the same food via the same agriculture, etc. I guess they depended more on magic back then as well (Wall raised with sorcery, Children of the Forest, etc.) I think the only mention we've had of technology is the invasion of the Andals who beat the Children and the First Men with iron weapons, and that was six thousand years ago. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Andal.

So to have iron weapons six thousand years go to having steel weapons today... seems like they aren't really progressing in technology.

Also, apparently knighthood's evolution was brought about by the Andals as warriors of the Seven. Source is also that Wiki article. Basically reaffirms what you said.

[pow]

Dornes true strength is the timing. Most if not all of the other kingdoms have been at war for extended periods. This leaves them prone to attack until they recover. There are disadvantages to joining any war late this was espy true in all periods prior to the Gun-Powder. It was not uncommon for veteran armies to win battles when out numbered two to one. It most be said that a battle is won before it is fought. The events and choices that take place during a battle are often pre-determined. Dornes best chance is to wait for Dany before declaring war. I wonder if they'll last that long.

[RAAM]

yeah, i put dornes strength 30 to 35k tops, but i also think that the average dornish soldier is better than the average reach soldier, not only that, but their horses are described like arab horses, so im betting they have light cavalry and probably some mounted archers which would give them a pretty large advavtange, plus, if their are any dornishmen even half as badass as the red viper, then a dornish army would roll right over the reach, all in all, i think that they have the least numbers but probably the best quality due to their martial society and harsh climate

also, while obyren was a pretty kickass fighter,was he a good general too?

[Ran]

I specifically noted this point when Linda and I were going over the manuscript, and George kept it just the same, so I'm thinking Quentyn is, either knowingly or out of ignorance, spouting the party line regarding how many spears Dorne can muster.

[voodooqueen126]

Probably the main advantage of Dorne at this point is that it's the only kingdom (along with the Vale) that hasn't been damaged by war.

In addition, because of his position, perhaps Dorne can produce food supplies even during winter.

Didn't Osha want to flee to Dorne.

[kungtotte]

Unlikely, considering that in order to reach Dorne she would have to travel across all of Westeros, or try to catch a series of ships without having any money at all.

[Autumn Wind]

Numbers aside I think Dorne's "true strength" lies on the Dornish taking advantage of any fight within their homeland's terrain and climate.

Dorne is the polar opposite of the North, in location and temperature but they are very much the same in how they are near invincible when fighting an outside force in their own territory. That said, any Dornish force that moves out in open battle are likely weaker than any equal numbered army that the Reach, Stormlands or Lannister can field.

Also note how they say that the Starks who went "south" (Brandon, Ned) rarely came back while the Dornish who went "north" suffered the same faith (Elia, Red viper)

[Bromosapian]

they havent been in major warfare of late, so they havent expended huge amounts of resources. Possibly they have a standing army? That is worth twice as much as the ragged peasant armies that the seven kingdoms employ.

[Werthead]

Probably no population growth simply because it's a story. Same reason that technology has never progressed at all over thousands and thousands of years (Age of Heroes, etc.). I found that part the most odd of all tbh. Our medieval ages we traditionally think of were what, basically from 800 to 1300 or so? I guess you could consider the fall of Rome to the fall of Constantinople as well for about 1000 years, but the ASoIaF world has had many millenia of intelligent population basically stuck in those times.

I think this is a misreading of the text. The appendix to AGoT explicitly tells us that the First Men essentially introduced the Bronze Age to Westeros, and then the Andals came with horses and iron weapons, introducing the Iron Age to the continent. We are then told that knights didn't appear until thousands of years later. ADWD then tells us that the Andal invasion was more likely 4,000 years ago than 6,000, and the maesters think that the dates may be catrastrophically out of date and it may be 2,000 years, in which case Westeros' iron age lasted for about as long as ours.

The First Men had a radically more primitive civilisation. Human sacrifice to weirwoods, not as advanced armour, bronze weapons, no horses, and marking runes on rocks instead of writing. Things have moved up quite a lot since then. If the dates really are as unrealiable as ADWD says, the length of time it has taken things to happen in Westeros isn't much longer than in real life, and even if the dates are reliable it's about three times as long. YMMV on if that is realistic given the massive retardation problems caused by the great winters.

[kungtotte]

Three times as long is easily within the realm of realistic margin of error using our world as the frame of reference. All of our progress has been made since the last ice age, pretty much, and Westeros basically suffers miniature ice ages on average once per generation.

Also of course there's the standard trope that magic suppresses technological advancement, and it's only within the last 300 years that magic has been leaking out of the world.

[LuisDantas]

Dorne is fairly isolated, yet closer to vital areas such as the Reach and King's Landing than the North. It is also, as noted, more inclined to have women warriors and to use less chivalrous ways such as poisons.

That said, I believe the true strength of Dorne is simply exagerated for effect. It is not like there are UKO (United Kingdoms Organization) inspectors making sure that their armed forces don't grow too unwieldly.

Having said that, there is still a hint of untold history in the air. How exactly come Dorne was unconquered when the other five Kingdoms couldn't stop Aegon the Conqueror no matter what? And is it a coincidence that Dorne is now supporting the Targaryens to such a dangerous extent? Or that the Dragons may have died due to poisoning and it just turns out that Dorne is the one Kingdom with a long tradition of using poisons?

[Free Northman]

I think this is a misreading of the text. The appendix to AGoT explicitly tells us that the First Men essentially introduced the Bronze Age to Westeros, and then the Andals came with horses and iron weapons, introducing the Iron Age to the continent. We are then told that knights didn't appear until thousands of years later. ADWD then tells us that the Andal invasion was more likely 4,000 years ago than 6,000, and the maesters think that the dates may be catrastrophically out of date and it may be 2,000 years, in which case Westeros' iron age lasted for about as long as ours.

The First Men had a radically more primitive civilisation. Human sacrifice to weirwoods, not as advanced armour, bronze weapons, no horses, and marking runes on rocks instead of writing. Things have moved up quite a lot since then. If the dates really are as unrealiable as ADWD says, the length of time it has taken things to happen in Westeros isn't much longer than in real life, and even if the dates are reliable it's about three times as long. YMMV on if that is realistic given the massive retardation problems caused by the great winters.

The First Men brought horses, not the Andals. The Andals just brought Iron to replace the bronze. Horses were very much a part of First Man culture.

[Mediumjon Umber]

Dorne's true strength?

Women with personalities Robert Jordan would be proud of.

Also, camuls!

[Young Wolf's Vanguard]

yeah, i put dornes strength 30 to 35k tops, but i also think that the average dornish soldier is better than the average reach soldier, not only that, but their horses are described like arab horses, so im betting they have light cavalry and probably some mounted archers which would give them a pretty large advavtange, plus, if their are any dornishmen even half as badass as the red viper, then a dornish army would roll right over the reach, all in all, i think that they have the least numbers but probably the best quality due to their martial society and harsh climate

also, while obyren was a pretty kickass fighter,was he a good general too?

Why should Dornish soldier be better than that of the Reach???

Dornishmen (sand and salty ones, stone are pure Andals) are fighting in light armors and are highly mobile but outside their deserts and mountain passes they are like fish out of water. In the open field their infantry and pikemen formations shouldn't be better than those in any other part of Westeros (maybe even worse due to the light armor they wear)

Oh, and I think you are heavily underestimating heavy cavalry

Oberyn had his own mercenary company so I guess he knows a thing or two about tactics and such

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

I don't think we see any significant willingness to field female troops. Arianne is not a warrior, and really only one of the Sand Snakes is. Nymeria was a warrior-queen, but that was a thousand years ago. I can't think of any other Dornish "spearwives;" am I missing any?

[LuisDantas]

Most of the Sand Snakes are dangerous in their own ways, albeit not always in a martial sense.

Of course, there is little to suggest that they are representative of Dorne as a whole. They are, after all, royalty or something very close to it.

[Silent_Hero]

I'm sure Dorne has around 20,000-40,000 FRESH troops just waiting around and that would be the standing army that they have I believe,not counting unraised levied or militia.

But that could cause havoc especially now at this moment with Aegon running around and Dany(whenever she arrives)

[LucionLannister]

I think is probably important to Aegon's hopes in more than just pure miilitary power.

First, there is the military part. While Dorne certainly can't mach man for man the power of Highgarden of Casterly Rock, they can still field twice as many men as just the Golden Company, which is going to help Aegon all day long.

Second, if Prince Doran (Aegon's uncle) publicly supports Aegon, it is going to put serious doubt into the minds of those who right now (Like Randyll Tarly) who think Aegon is a pretender/explorer looking for glory and gold.

And third, having the freaking Prince of Dorne back him is going to make it easier for Aegon to get lesser noble houses in Westeros to join him. It its just Aegon and some sellsword company, no one is going to care. But its Aegon, the Golden Company, AND the Prince of Dorne, little lords are going to take a second look.