[ADwD Spoilers] A bitch to write – a bitch to read?

[BRETTASOIAF]

I didn't begin reading the series until sometime in May, after seeing a few episodes of the HBO series. I finished AFFC in June and only had about a month wait for ADWD. So, it was all fresh on my mind when I began reading ADWD. After finishing it, there is no question that it is the worst of the books so far. I also had never felt the desire to skip through paragraphs in the other four books, but this one forced me to start doing it halfway through. I enjoy imagery as much as the next reader, but this one was drowned in it. It also somehow left me uninterested in Tyrion (one of my favorite characters) and absolutly hating Dany to the point of hoping she'd get killed or lose the dragons to someone else.

I couldn't agree more. I like you just got into the series from watching GOT on HBO. I actually read a bit slower, or started later, and finished AFFC on the same day ADWD released. I just finished ADWD yesterday, and I can say it is by far the worst book. My actual ratings of the books are:

ASOS

AFFC

CoK=GoT

ADWD

Honestly I would be really mad if I had to wait the 5 or 6 years between AFFC and this book, because it was a total let down. The new characters introduced in AFFC were way more fun then the ones in this book. I didn't hate the danny, tyrion, or quentyn povs, but they weren't great either. Basically every other character I looked forward to reading there povs, but not those three. (actually I did look forward to reading those povs, but in the end they just sucked). The thing that makes me the most mad is that we could have skipped some of these chapters, and maybe added 1 more Jon chapter (my favorite character), so I wouldn't have to wait six years to find out if he is alive.

[The Oncoming Storm]

I read it through, but on a re-read I'll skip all the Meereen stuff except for Barristan, some Tyrion and Drogon's return.

And this comes from someone who forced herself through Waterloo and the Paris sever system on EVERY re-reading of Les Mis. Both come at point when the characters are in a big trouble and they don't add much to the plot...

[banditry]

Basically every other character I looked forward to reading there povs, but not those three. (actually I did look forward to reading those povs, but in the end they just sucked). The thing that makes me the most mad is that we could have skipped some of these chapters, and maybe added 1 more Jon chapter (my favorite character), so I wouldn't have to wait six years to find out if he is alive.

If only GRRM had consulted you before writing the book, so that the characters you personally like were featured more prominently and those you didn't could have been skipped. A true shame.

[She Wolf of Winterfell]

I enjoyed aDwD quite a bit, and I'm also a bit confused as to some of the criticisms (unless people just can't appreciate foreplay). On one hand, not too many major events happened. On the other, there was a lot of buildup to set the stage for the next books. I thought a Clash of Kings was *okay* on the first read, but at the time, it also seemed to me to have a lot of unnecessary buildup. Later, when I read a Storm of Swords, I could fully appreciate how well aCoK set the stage and heightened the experience for the major aSoS events. While the jury is still slightly out, since the next two books haven't been written, I would imagine that aFfC and aDwD will seem much more important, relevant, and enjoyable in the context of the next two books.

Did people really imagine in this book that Dany would land in Westeros with Tyrion in tow, join up with Jon on the wall to fight the others, and then have *two whole books* describing them crispifying the others with the dragons?

My only major beef with aDwD and aFfC is the character splitting. The timeline issues with the first few Jon chapters were a bit jarring, since we spent the last book seeing Sam and Aemon sailing off, only to have them back at the wall. Also, a lot more of my favorite PoV characters were not in aFfC, so I found it a bit more difficult to get into the book.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

To me, the telling question/answer is how you felt when you finished the last page. Were you relieved that it was over, or were you wishing there was more? Personally, I wished there was more to read. I suppose you could take that as a complaint that not enough happened, but anytime you're left wanting more, it's a good purchase.

The weakness of the book for me personally were unnecessary chapters, specifically Danaerys'. Each could have been summed up in essentially a single paragraph. But everything else I enjoyed, and on a reread, I'll just skip those chapters and enjoy the hell out of it.

[Ser Pistus]

Did people really imagine in this book that Dany would land in Westeros with Tyrion in tow, join up with Jon on the wall to fight the others, and then have *two whole books* describing them crispifying the others with the dragons?

No. But a few of us hoped that a whole book will be enough for Tyrion to meet Dany at least.

I repeat: not a chapter. Not 2 or 5 or even 10 chapters, but a whole book of 12 Tyrion and 10 Dany chapters were not enough for these two to even meet, which was Tyrion's prime objective since Chapter 1.

Your comparison with A Clash of Kings is especially unfair. Clash did include the Battle of the Blackwater, the big climax, the decisive battle that every Tyrion and Davos chapter culminated towards. But Feast and Dance are almost nothing but broken, unfinished storylines, most notably the 3 huge storylines of King's Landing, the North and Meereen.

[Zeromus]

It's not exactly reassuring that he finds ASoIaF such a chore to write. What with him getting older, his schedule being so full and money no longer being an issue, there's going to be less and less reason for him to carry on writing.

:crying:

[She Wolf of Winterfell]

No. But a few of us hoped that a whole book will be enough for Tyrion to meet Dany at least.

I repeat: not a chapter. Not 2 or 5 or even 10 chapters, but a whole book of 12 Tyrion and 10 Dany chapters were not enough for these two to even meet, which was Tyrion's prime objective since Chapter 1.

Of course, you're assuming that the whole point of the Tyrion in Essos chapters are for him to meet up with Dany. If all GRRM wanted to show was that Dany was a miserable and naive ruler who needs Tyrion to take over as her Hand and set everything right, then I agree that the Tyrion chapters were pointless, and there could have been half as many Dany chapters. But, we don't really know what GRRM intends to do with Tyrion in Essos. Since he could have easily linked the two, I would imagine that Tyrion's eventual takeover of the Second Sons has an aim other than merely being in orbit around Dany.

Your comparison with A Clash of Kings is especially unfair. Clash did include the Battle of the Blackwater, the big climax, the decisive battle that every Tyrion and Davos chapter culminated towards. But Feast and Dance are almost nothing but broken, unfinished storylines, most notably the 3 huge storylines of King's Landing, the North and Meereen.

Both books, though, had a lot more buildup than plot resolution. I'm not "into" battle descriptions, so I felt like Jon's Caesaring, Dany flying off with Drogon, Theon's whole arc, etc. were every bit as much of a climax as Blackwater was. I guess your mileage may vary on what you view as climax vs. buildup, and how much you prefer.

[macaroni]

I hope I'm not being too presumptuous with my first post here. But I probably am.

I found the book painful to read, and like every other cocky newb, I will spam this thread with my ADWD opinions, assuming everyone wants to hear my inane ramblings. And yes, I signed up to post this. But not because I hate, but because I used to love this series so hard that I just can't help myself. It's a catharsis, so forgiveness please.

Well, it's here. With no dancing. And almost no dragons. Sigh.

I've loved this series since I first read GOT way back in 1996 when my roommate in University lent it to me saying, "Hey, you should read this. It's a lot better than that Dragonlance dreck." It was. Much better. But now I find myself missing Raistlyn more and more, and loving ASOIAF less and less.

The problems with this book are legion.

* Where's the beef? There is no story. Really. Nothing much happens. At all. 900 pages of bun, 100 pages of beef. Stale beef. Or pork. Manderly "To Serve Man" pork.

* Travelogues are boring. Tyrion, I'm looking at you. And past you, at some new guys from Dorne. And also at that other new Cottinpickin guy, or whatever his name is.

* The only thing more boring than travelogues is sitting about, moping around, and muchadoing about nothing. Jon and Dany, go to your rooms.

* Speaking of new guys. Egg better be a fake. Nuff said. P.S. What's the deal with all the new guys?

* Pretension does not become you. This is not high literature. Tyrion is no Charles Marlow, and his river-ride is no Heart of Darkness. So please George, just stop. For your sake, and ours.

* It's my job to be repetitive. My job. My job. Repetitiveness is my job. If I hear "words are wind" one more time, I think I am going to cry.

* Who mixed that sexual sadism up in my fantasy? One word: Reek. If I wanted to read the "Story of O" I would. I don't. So please George, just stop (remember, repetitiveness is my job).

* To die or not to die, that is the question. Actually, there is no question. Other than Lord Edd, Robb, Tywin, and a few other chumps, nobody dies. It's either a cheap fakeout or zombie time. I'm looking at you Brienne, Hound, Davos, Mance, Tyrion, Theon, Cersei, Jon (c'mon, do you really think he's dead?), Cat, Gregor, Quentyn (okay, maybe not you Quentyn), and Stannis (no way he's dead). Enough with the "Is [fill in name] dead? Tune in next time!".

* I see POVs everywhere I go, everywhere I go. George, it ain't easy being green, and it ain't easy managing a million plot threads. I know. Especially when you throw in a bunch more POVs so late in the game. At least I hope this is late in the game. Actually, scratch that. I no longer care whether this is late in the game.

I could go on and on. And I would. But my shrew-like wife keeps telling me I have an "internet addiction." She's wrong though, as all my WOW guild members can attest.

So I sez, of all the things wrong with the book, the wrongest is that it badly, badly needed an editor. George needs an editor. Because George, words are wind (*sob*), and this book passes a great deal of it.

In conclusion, I'm reminded of another George who once said "Special effects are just a tool: a means of telling a story. People have a tendency to confuse them as an ends unto themselves. A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing." That George lost Gary Kurtz and ended up destroying Star Wars.

In ADWD, Tyrion never found his Kurtz, but I sincerely hope GRRM finds his - Gary or otherwise. For his sake, and ours.

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding editing, how many jokes about crossbow bolts can Tyrion make? How many times can 'words are wind' be repeated, how many you know nothing, Jon Snow do we really need? It felt as if various chapters were written years apart by GRRM and not revisited. Every Wall chapter had it's hoarfrost. This book was probably 100 pages too big, in my humble opinion.

But. I still enjoyed it. I think there's a danger in waiting for mid-books in series and wanting expected story endings to end like yesterday or something! When one reads GRRM, you have to accept that the plot will most likely not go the way you expected and that not all arcs will end in this book.

To summarise, the positives were:

- Tyrion's wit

- Theon's torture (the writing of his chapters was by far the best in the book)

- The whole Bolton/Manderly arc.

- A return to form for Cersei's writing. (not that she gets a come-uppance in this book, it just felt as her chapters were lean and tight and just worked.)

- Bran's chapters were mysterious and yet beautiful.

- Barristan's chapters really captured the virtuous, yet binary thought processes of an honest, simple man in a complex world.

- Arya's training. I think GRRM was probably right in thinking that some mention of her training were necessary as opposed to the five year hiatus. I got the impression that he'd done some research on blindness for these chapters. It felt right.

The negatives were:

- Dany's chapters. I understand that we're not supposed to empathise with most Meereen. I get that. And the idea that slavery and serfdom are not that much different. But it felt like six chapters fleshed out into twelve. I get that she's had a tough life but she just came across as whiney and I became indifferent to her plight.

- The dragons. I understand that GRRM likens magic in stories to salt in a stew. We're five books in and the dragon stew seems very bland.

- Agreed with the jarring nature of the Sam/Aegon chapter.

- Quentyn 'Redshirt' Martell. Someone elsewhere said his whole story arc was basically to open the door to free the dragons. I reckon he was GRRM's solution to the Meereenese knot.

[Goral]

It's neither simplistic nor am I dismissing anything. People have as many reasons to like or hate something as there are people. But my impression is that most people's disappointed are based on that. But it's *my* impression, an opinion if you will.

Such opinion has the same value as me saying: "I think that most people that liked this novel would have liked it even if gummi bears where in it".

The book was a bitch to read, there's no doubt about it. Dany chapters where tiresome to read, so much pointless talking that I really had an urge to skip them but then when I thought I might skip something important and would have to go back anyway and reread some parts in order to find it I preferred to suffer only once. However, after finishing the whole thing I've started regretting it since NOTHING important happened. Martin could as well written instead of these tedious chapters recipes of some dishes (Frey pies for example) and I think people would be more content than with this blabbery of his.

[Ser Pistus]

Both books, though, had a lot more buildup than plot resolution. I'm not "into" battle descriptions, so I felt like Jon's Caesaring, Dany flying off with Drogon, Theon's whole arc, etc. were every bit as much of a climax as Blackwater was. I guess your mileage may vary on what you view as climax vs. buildup, and how much you prefer.

Jon's Cearsaring was a climax for you? Really? For me, it was the worst possible finish of GRRM's worst chapter ever. A cheap cliffhanger, nothing more, and completely out of thin air. (There are quite a few topics here about the possible motives of the would-be-killers, but no one came up with a satisfying answer yet.)

Dany's flight was great, I agree.

[The Human Abstract]

Didn't feel it was a bitch to read at all. Enjoyed every second. My only complaint is this: the two books were working towards (IMO) two giant events. We were cut short of receiving payoff for either one (at least one I know is due to editing). And now we have years without getting to discuss the outcomes

[papercut]

A bitch to read? Not for me, no. I'm about a third of the way through, and quite enjoying it. I'm enjoying Tyrions ride down the river - could GRRM have said "two months pass, Tyrion got kidnapped, prioked his finger each day and then finally met Dany (whether he does or not I don't know yet)". I'm enjoying Davos and the workings going on for Stannis, seeing Bran and his journey to the three eyed crow.

To me it sounds more like because the climax is closer than it had been before folks just want the Cliff's notes version with maybe a couple more memorable quotes.

When I was a third of the way thru I thought the book was the second coming, the beginning is really strong, and the whole book is very well written. But from 1/3 to about 7/8 the book really drags, and the it goes out with a whimper not a bang. There are some moments though, so skimming too quickly can be a bit risky.

I almost wish it was like software with multiple editions, a tightened AFFC and ADWD would be most welcome. Is anyone working on the "Phantom Edit?"

Let us all remember, GRRM is not our Bitch!

[Goral]

I suppose that if I would have skipped ALL Dany's chapters and most of Tyrion's chapters and most of Theon's chapters (although here I would actually skim through chapters, skipping all rhymes and pointless talking how miserable he is but reading the rest) it wouldn't be that bad.

[Captain Know]

I actually really enjoyed this book. The only negative I could say is that the Mereen chapters perhaps were a bit too drawn out for me. Like some people, I really can't wait for Dany to get her butt over to Westeros, and the same for Arya. So, I'm hoping with the next book things begin to start converging in Westeros...plus, I'd like to see more of the stuff beyond the wall.

[Draakon]

I enjoyed reading Dance, although I would have enjoyed it even more without most Quentyn and Dany chapters :(. Too much filler. Also hoped for more plot development (everywhere), but it was not so bad.

[Quoth]

In reply to the original post, yes. Very hard to read. I mean I'm loving it, but damn...

First, the prologue... Simply a hard read for me. Days later I understood and appreciated the insight as to how warging worked from the point of view of one who did it, but I really had to slog through it and had difficulty grasping some of it. Partly, this was because I was miffed I would be spending 15 or so pages learning new characters that just knew weren't long for the world. Partially it was because of : "C'mon! C'mon! Gimme Tyrion! Gimme Jon! Gimme.... somebody... already!" And besides knowing intuitively the imminent doom of the character, I had to burn precious moments wrestling with "Well, that's that. First fatality. Wait. He is dead, right? Yeah, 'course he is. Ummm... right...? yes. Definitely yes. Maybe. No, yes. No... Yes... Awww, who in seven hells knows anymore...?"

Which leads me to something else...

Tryion's little swim in the river. I thought, of course he'd be OK. Someone would, of course, pull him out. Then a horrific thought wormed into my head. What if he IS dead? What if after investing all that time with a character/story arc, he's just ingloriously killed off? What? You think such is beyond GRRM? Jesus! I seriously would not be able to handle it. Not just Tyrion. Any of the major characters. Kill 'em off if ya gotta. OK. But if one of 'em just steps off a cliff or something someday, seriously, I'm done.

And another thing... I'm really sick of reading every name in the book twice. First forwards then backwards. Really. I'm so exhausted from hunting for clues. For a bit, I'd really just like to enjoy reading the damn story. :lol:

Is anyone else getting the feeling of insane speed? It seems jarring to me. After tramping wearily through AFFC (which I took to be part of the theme, the weariness of the war and it's aftermath), I feel like all the various arcs are racing at a breakneck pace to some sort of combined resolution. It's absolutely dizzying.

OK, tongue out of cheek, I am enjoying the ride, exhausting as it is.

ETA - I'm still reading, so I skipped reading this threads replies to avoid potential spoilers. Sorry if I echoed other folks' sentiments.

[GoodKingAlf]

It annoys me that so many people don't get the Quentyn chapters.

They are there to remind us of the "best laid plans fo mice and men..." nature of this series. The traditional arc would have Quentyn tame a Dragon and win Dany's heart. That isn't what GRRM's world is all about.

He was doomed from the start. He was doomed with his and his father's wishful thinking. I love his chapters.

[acadia]

Martin himself describes the writing process of Feast: ‘The last one was a bitch.” and of ADWD: “This one was three bitches and a bastard”. If the author had trouble writing it It’s not surprising that it is also “three bitches and a bastard” to read. Presumably the first 3 books were easier to write, I also found them far more enjoyable to read.

I think part of my difficulty with reading ADWD is my refusal to skip anything, I never felt this urge to in the 1st 3 books. I read this today and thought it was very applicable, in his essay “The Art of Fiction” Sommerset Maughm writes: “The wise reader will get the greatest enjoyment … if he learns the useful art of skipping. A sensible person does not read a novel as a task. He is prepared to interest himself in the characters… and what happens to them, he sympathises with their troubles and is gladdened by their joys. But he knows instinctively where his interest lies and he follows it as surely as a hound follows the scent of a fox. Sometimes, through the author’s failure, he loses the scent. Then he flounders about till he finds it again. He skips”

My interests are in Westeros, not in Mereen. I didn’t feel the urge to skip in the Theon, Jon or Davos chapters. With Dany, Jon and Tyrion’s character regression from the end of ASOS I have lost interest and sympathy with them. Its not a very plausible or thoroughly fleshed out setting, unlike Westeros with full family trees, coast of arms and centuries of history. As a reader I am floundering in these chapters because the author floundered in these chapters. Generally I can enjoy brilliant prose with zero plot. However Martin’s excessive repetition of words especially inconsistent faux-medieval ones (serjeant, neeps, needs must, nuncle) is not good prose.

I have only just finished ADWD but others seemed to have finished very quickly, I suspect they skipped many Tyrion and Dany bits and probably found the whole experience more enjoyable.

The Martin in the first 3 books is no longer the Martin of these last two, I hope returns to enjoying writing the next 2 (or 3) so I can enjoy reading them again!

PS I was going to reply to the “Well that was disappointing” thread but its been locked without comment.

Affc and ADWD were the first books in the series, I also skipped over chapters. I competely skipped over Martell's stuff what a waste of time.

[vilator]

So what were the names of the books any of you guys (people moaning it wasnt very good) released in the interveening 6 years?

Oh you didnt write any?

Didnt think so.

There are more than 4 relevant people in the fate of Westeros -

If you struggle to keep up with the pace of the story (that includes its slow spells), go back to reading Potter.

LOL just needed to repost this from the other thread. What a great post. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: