Jump to content

[ADwD Spoilers] Perfumed Seneschal


pow

Recommended Posts

1. It could be two people, I guess, but I doubt it.

2. I still think it's the ship. I pretty much write off anyone that Dany herself suspects (kind of like I know Tyrion isn't the valonqar and Margaery isn't the younger queen, precisely because Cersei thinks they are).

3. This is actually why I don't think it's Varys (who's arguably already in the prophecy as the "mummer," so why would he be "counted" twice?). He's the obvious choice. I actually think that the ship is the less obvious choice, and you have to kind of pay attention to it (i.e. they never translate it as the "perfumed seneschal," but rather the "stinky steward"). It's very easy to miss, but that's the ship's name for a reason.

1. Personally, agree.

2. I half-agree, half don't. To me Cersei is a character that despite logic or other circumstances has an impression that she can't get out of her mind when deciding on these things. Dany, imo doesn't have that same bias/personality flaw.

3. I think this is very likely, as the translation thing does kind of raise some flags, secondly because the "perfumed seneschal" would be something to beware of given it's bringing to her several of these people she shouldn't trust: lion, griffin, (possibly mummer's dragon depending on how you feel about that and Aegon).

I kind of feel like the ship gets involved with the kraken (black flame if we're designating that it's Moqorro) too, does Victarion get the ship somehow or is my memory failing me?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Personally, agree.

2. I half-agree, half don't. To me Cersei is a character that despite logic or other circumstances has an impression that she can't get out of her mind when deciding on these things. Dany, imo doesn't have that same bias/personality flaw.

3. I think this is very likely, as the translation thing does kind of raise some flags, secondly because the "perfumed seneschal" would be something to beware of given it's bringing to her several of these people she shouldn't trust: lion, griffin, (possibly mummer's dragon depending on how you feel about that and Aegon).

I kind of feel like the ship gets involved with the kraken (black flame if we're designating that it's Moqorro) too, does Victarion get the ship somehow or is my memory failing me?

I just know that it was boarded eventually, but I don't know if it was salvaged or what.

I also want to point out that the prophecy mentioned people/things coming, but not necessarily arriving. A razor-thin distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good catch.

So far of them, only Quentyn would have arrived.

The rest are either still en route, or have gone a different path (griffin for example).

About the perfumed seneschal - might he not have "appeared" to Dany yet?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boy, I thought it clear that the perfumed seneschal was Reznak mo Reznak and that he's been conspiring with the Harpy (who I think is the Green Grace) by pretending to be Dany's friends and supporters while they in fact are manipulating her into doing what they want, namely to reestablish the Mereneese nobility and the slave trade.

By the end of ADWD, they've managed to convince Dany to allow slavery and to adopt Meerenese customs. They got her to marry a Meerenese noble. They are advocating Hazoo be released even though the circumstantial evidence seems pretty clear he was trying to poison Dany.

We'll see I suppose but IMO the other choices possible but require some pretty stretched reasoning. Varys, for example, fits the perfume warning (at least when he's in his spider disguise) but he has not been a seneschal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok lets go at this systematically (I like the numbering you've been doing). And go over the whole thing with the purpose of getting to the PS.

1. Kracken/Dark Flame- most likely Victarion/Moqorro

2. Lion/Griffin- Tyrion(pretty universally accepted) / Connington or Aegon (who was Young Griff at the time)

3. Suns/Son/Mummers dragon- Quentyn / ? (Varys, Aegon, Brown Ben Plumm, unmet character)

4. Remember the undying- general advice, people are out to get her?

5. Perfumed Seneschal- Reznak mo Reznak, Varys, Stinky Steward, Varys & Illyrio, unmet character.

-my prob with the stinky boat being the PS is if you are going to name Tyrion & Griffin why also name the boat they're on separate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Kraken: The only possibles I see are Victarion and Euron (who definitely wouldn't be someone to trust, a la the prophesy), because Asha and Theon don't seem like they're going on a journey any time soon.

2. Dark Flame: Moqorro, or some Blackfyre, hell let's throw in Stannis if we're going at all possibilities, likely or no. Oh, and Archmaester Marwyn!

3. Lion: this is the only one I'm 100% convinced of - Tyrion. Jaime, the only other likely lion able to go somewhere is pretty tied up in the Riverlands at the moment. By a longshot: dead/missing uncle Gerion Lannister (doubt it). I'm thinking has to be Tyrion.

4. Griffin: Jon Connington or Aegon. We know of no other likely Griffins.

5. The Sun's Son: Though it's been argued, I think we can all safely assume it's Quentyn, or at least go with that for the purpose of this moment.

6. Trust none of them -> Seems a bit paranoid of a saying but at least for some of these characters, putting trust in them would be a bad move (though I still will say that Quentyn doesn't seem untrustworthy :shrug:)

7. Remember the Undying -> Recall the visions of there. I'm betting the most important thing she's supposed to remember is about the "mummer's dragon." mmhmm

8. Perfumed Seneschal: Frontrunners are Reznak mo Reznak, Varys, & Illyrio.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6. Trust none of them -> Seems a bit paranoid of a saying but at least for some of these characters, putting trust in them would be a bad move (though I still will say that Quentyn doesn't seem untrustworthy :shrug:)

Quent did try to steal her dragons, and in general the advice to not trust him and run off to Dorne right away was prob good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quent did try to steal her dragons, and in general the advice to not trust him and run off to Dorne right away was prob good.

Hmm, perhaps you are right.

What do you think about Archmaester Marwyn. Is his role in this simply the part about "the candles are burning" or could he be a candidate for the dark flame?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmm, perhaps you are right.

What do you think about Archmaester Marwyn. Is his role in this simply the part about "the candles are burning" or could he be a candidate for the dark flame?

I dunno what links Marwyn to a dark flame, other than he has an obsidian candle? Also maybe he IS someone to trust and not part of the warning...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boy, I thought it clear that the perfumed seneschal was Reznak mo Reznak and that he's been conspiring with the Harpy (who I think is the Green Grace) by pretending to be Dany's friends and supporters while they in fact are manipulating her into doing what they want, namely to reestablish the Mereneese nobility and the slave trade.

By the end of ADWD, they've managed to convince Dany to allow slavery and to adopt Meerenese customs. They got her to marry a Meerenese noble. They are advocating Hazoo be released even though the circumstantial evidence seems pretty clear he was trying to poison Dany.

We'll see I suppose but IMO the other choices possible but require some pretty stretched reasoning. Varys, for example, fits the perfume warning (at least when he's in his spider disguise) but he has not been a seneschal.

I discounted Reznak just because Dany herself suspected him.

I still think the ship's name is too specific to be anything other than deliberate. Either it's meant to be a red herring, or it's meant to be the real deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dunno what links Marwyn to a dark flame, other than he has an obsidian candle? Also maybe he IS someone to trust and not part of the warning...

I am not sure about Marwyn. I was reading another thread on here that reminded me of something that was mentioned about Marwyn in the books. Qyburn (the necromancer) says something ot the effect of "Marwyn was the only one that appreciated my work, the other maesters were all running scared."

Which leaves me some doubts as to his trustability. Not just him, now that I think of it, but also the FM who's become Pate. Something fishy is going on over in Oldtown, imo.

I discounted Reznak just because Dany herself suspected him.

I still think the ship's name is too specific to be anything other than deliberate. Either it's meant to be a red herring, or it's meant to be the real deal.

The more I think about it the more I think it's got to be the ship.

I mean, Varys and Illyrio are definitely not people to trust, but that's not a startling revelation. Dany knew as much about Illyrio way back in GoT. She hasn't met Varys yet, & (in my opinion) the prophesy and the way it's timed don't make it viable for her to meet up with Varys within its parameters so I'm not so sure Varys is the PS.

This leaves us with Reznak and The Ship as the main contenders.

Someone else somewhere said that Reznak isn't important enough to qualify for the role, and I tend to agree with this take.

For me, the Ship is the best option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's "Beware the perfumed seneschal", right? To me, this is a stronger warning than just "don't trust him/her/it". The implication is that the perfumed seneschal will actively try to harm Danaerys, whereas the untrustworthy ones may just have their own agendas. I personally favor Varys as the perfumed seneschal, mainly because I think he is trying to destroy House Targaryen. (I have a convoluted theory about Varys and his anti-Targ motives, but that's neither here nor there.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I want to keep thinking the perfumed seneschal is somehow going to be Garth 'the gross' Tyrell. The reference to him as the Tyrell seneschal in Kevan's pov just stood out to me way too much. The perfume could easily be a reference to his flatulence, his supposed heavy perfuming to cover it up, or just the Tyrell flower. I also think the main reason behind my suspicion is how quickly the Tyrell's using different gold pretty much dropped off the map.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to keep thinking the perfumed seneschal is somehow going to be Garth 'the gross' Tyrell. The reference to him as the Tyrell seneschal in Kevan's pov just stood out to me way too much. The perfume could easily be a reference to his flatulence, his supposed heavy perfuming to cover it up, or just the Tyrell flower. I also think the main reason behind my suspicion is how quickly the Tyrell's using different gold pretty much dropped off the map.

Not a bad theory, and I hadn't thought of that.

Surely they wouldn't be trustworthy... perhaps they try to make nice by Dany but are supporting a different candidate in the throne, e.g. Tommen, Aegon.......generally male candidates, as Margaery can marry them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the ship.

I think so too, still. I reread Dany's ADWD chapters again and I honestly think Reznak is largely inconsequential. The Harpy/Green Grace is the real danger there — Hizdahr is a stooge/patsy and I can't see where, other than bad advice, Reznak is that big of a deal. Dany and Barristan don't trust him, which is laid on pretty thick.

This next point might seem like splitting hairs, but I feel compelled to point it out, the same way I pointed out the difference between "coming" and "arriving."

Dany is told not to trust the griffin, lion, kraken, dark flame, mummer's dragon and sun's son. Mistrust implies that these represent people. But when Quaithe mentions the perfumed seneschal, the word she uses is beware. It's possible to beware an inanimate object, i.e. it carries bad things or can cause harm, whatever. But you can't apply an abstract term like "trust" to an inanimate object. You can't "not trust" a ship. If the perfumed seneschal were a person, like Varys or Reznak, why not include it in the "don't trust" list? Unless it's not a person at all and telling Dany not to trust it would make no sense, given that it's actually a ship. Hence Quaithe separates it from the "people" in the warning and applies another action to it: "beware," not "don't trust."

The ship was damaged fairly badly, but if I remember correctly, it was in good enough shape for slavers to board it and it's possible that it could eventually be repaired, in which case, telling Dany to not trust the ship's former passengers and to beware the ship itself doesn't have to be redundant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reznak is too obvious, it's the first thing that comes to Dany's mind because he's a seneschal and he uses a lot of perfume. Prophecies are always open to interpretation and never to be taken literally.

When Tyrion boards the ship and the captain explains the name to him he says something along the lines of "it means something that is fragrant and uhm steward" so basically Fragrant Steward and Tyrion says "I like Stinky steward better". It seems quite obvious to me that the correct translation of the ship's name is Perfumed Seneschal.

The ship is bad news because it's also suspected to carry greyscale. Maybe grayscale is fatal to dragons ? Maybe the dragons of Dragonstone are actual dragons who died of greyscale ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dany is told not to trust the griffin, lion, kraken, dark flame, mummer's dragon and sun's son. Mistrust implies that these represent people. But when Quaithe mentions the perfumed seneschal, the word she uses is beware. It's possible to beware an inanimate object, i.e. it carries bad things or can cause harm, whatever. But you can't apply an abstract term like "trust" to an inanimate object. You can't "not trust" a ship. If the perfumed seneschal were a person, like Varys or Reznak, why not include it in the "don't trust" list? Unless it's not a person at all and telling Dany not to trust it would make no sense, given that it's actually a ship. Hence Quaithe separates it from the "people" in the warning and applies another action to it: "beware," not "don't trust."

You maybe right but there some holes in your reasoning, I do believe. You can certainly "trust" or "not trust" an object. Say you have a gun with a history of misfiring, you would rather take a more reliable gun into battle because you "mistrust" the unreliable one. Now this does not make the unreliable gun "evil", it may work just fine most of the time, but you just don't want to take a chance in an important situation. This is the difference I see in the prophecy, the griffin, lion, kraken, dark flame, mummer's dragon and sun's son may not be trust worthy for Dany at this moment, but that doesn't mean they are going to actively try an and harm her. "Beware" on the other hand has dangerous connotations, something that is going to actively try and hurt her (not something I associate with inanimate objects). You wouldn't "beware" a gun, but you would a dangerous person using one. Now is it possible to "beware" the boat, yes; because the boat is performing an action (possibly actively carrying danger to her). But the problem I have is that certainly the griffin, lion, and possibly mummer's dragon are on the boat, so why warn of them twice? why be un-trusting of them & wary of them also, why the redundancy in the prophecy, if it is the boat?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...