White-Luck Warrior VI

[lokisnow]

Though I read it differently, that seems to be the consensus (kinda like Nin' janjin). I kid, I kid.

But If it's correct that's the case that six survived, I would love to know who the other four are and how they died.

Clearly these are the cunning sister Nilingus and fell brother Llatio.

Trying to develop cants of masturbation.

Indeed.

[The Imp's Advocate]

That does lead to one of my stranger questions about this series: Why would they give skin-spies constant erections?

Wouldn't it be fairly easy to spot them? Just keep an eye out for the man (or woman) with the huge boner, and drag them in front of Kellhus if it lasts more than 4 hours.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

They're not constant. See Xerius' discovery of his mother-as-skinspy and Kellhus' fight with Sarcellus for evidence - both of them become erect on-screen.

Regarding the six Inchoroi. Is it ever explicitly stated that Aurang and Aurax are the ONLY two living, and if so, is the speaker one who would know? My point is, there could be others we haven't yet seen or heard of.

Another possibility... kinda verging into crackpot... perhaps the other four continued to attempt Grafting until all were dead.

[unJon]

Responding to Kal's response to me on the old thread (llink). That's right but so am I. IIRC, the conversation goes:

Non-man: We worship the spaces between the gods.

Kel: That is why you are damned.

None-man: As false men.

Kel: Yes.

So Kel does explicitly agree with the false men thing (assuming, IRC).

In other interview analysis: In addition to locality of damnation taking a hit, I think that answer also deals a (death?) blow to the idea that the Outside is mutable by belief in Earwa.

[jurble]

In addition to locality of damnation taking a hit, I think that answer also deals a (death?) blow to the idea that the Outside is mutable by belief in Earwa.

Dunno, I think it raises a question above that - Can Gods be damned? The morality of the Universe appears to be fixed. But the Agencies of the Outside might have interests that run counter to the Universal morality. For example, Mimara sees snakes shining as holy, but as far as we know, none of the Gods consider snakes holy.

That is to say, someone like Kosoter, who was damned because of all the war-crimes he committed, if he had worshipped Gil-gaol, the fact of his damnation might not ever have disappeared, but Gil-gaol would have saved regardless?

But at any rate, the Outside is at least mutable to people who have visited it, if not mutable to people still living in reality.

I don't recall what the goal behind the idea of the mutability of the Outside was anyway. People were trying to argue Kellhus was trying to actually make himself The God? If belief could alter the Outside, then the Consult would be doing that as opposed to trying to seal off the Outside.

[Kalbear]

I think that the question of damnation is still a bit confused. When a Godling saves a person, are they 'saved'? Are they simply damned but hanging out with people that can protect themm, and thus are only saved from Ciphrang torture? That's sort of my view - that the truly 'saved' don't go through any of the godlings or ancestors or anything of that nature,and they skip that step entirely and go...somewhere else. Only the damned go to the Outside where either godlings take notice for a variety of reasons (like Yatwer's hatred, frex), or they don't and you're left to the vagaries of the other Outside creatures.

The reason I'm thinking more along those lines is the Angelic comment - that the angelic ciphrang simply can't be removed from the Outside. To me, this means that they have no intrinsic link to the World. Which to me says that the saved (assuming they'd be hanging out with the angels) are the ones that get to be removed from the cycle, and are cut off from the real world completely.

[Curethan]

In other interview analysis: In addition to locality of damnation taking a hit, I think that answer also deals a (death?) blow to the idea that the Outside is mutable by belief in Earwa.

Nah man, I'm riding my structuralization horse to the finish line.

Consider the fact that there is no way Yatwer was a goddess of birth and fertility before men started worshiping her. The fact that Psatma refers to her as the oldest of the gods. That which comes before determines that which comes after. Some kind of evolution must be occuring in the outside that relates to human cultural growth.

Spiritual value and damnation are global constants, but specific instances are infinitely varied and defined by causal events rooted in the reality of Earwa.

In the outside, souls frame 'memories' of these events which congregate by self defined subjective types and the whim of agencies that have some use, affinity or attraction to those types (ciphrang gather souls based on damnation - self hatred and recrimination, cultic gods on various powerful beliefs relating to worship and piety and ancestors who are linked through rememberence and genetics). These agencies bind souls because they have spiritual value and in turn become increasingly defined and more powerful as they collect ever broader numbers of souls (fragments of memories that link all humans). Eventually they become so well defined and powerful that they can intrude into the real world and interfere in the causal stream to influence the type of beliefs that benefit them and it becomes a two-way feedback system.

The watcher and the watched.

[Curethan]

Dunno, I think it raises a question above that - Can Gods be damned? The morality of the Universe appears to be fixed. But the Agencies of the Outside might have interests that run counter to the Universal morality. For example, Mimara sees snakes shining as holy, but as far as we know, none of the Gods consider snakes holy.

Cishies do. And they use them to 'see'.

That is to say, someone like Kosoter, who was damned because of all the war-crimes he committed, if he had worshipped Gil-gaol, the fact of his damnation might not ever have disappeared, but Gil-gaol would have saved regardless?

According to Inrithism, if he was pious enough for Gilgaol to notice him and if Gilgaol could be arsed. Depending on what Gilgaol's mini-dimension is like one might rather be damned. He probly gets a slice of you if you are damned anyway. According to the PoN narrative, he rode Cnaiur via aspect a couple times and Cnaiur wasn't a worshipper in any way.

But at any rate, the Outside is at least mutable to people who have visited it, if not mutable to people still living in reality.

I don't recall what the goal behind the idea of the mutability of the Outside was anyway. People were trying to argue Kellhus was trying to actually make himself The God? If belief could alter the Outside, then the Consult would be doing that as opposed to trying to seal off the Outside.

Various models have been suggested and most of them torn apart. Mine has been scrapped and revised plenty o' times ;)

[jurble]

Cishies do. And they use them to 'see'.

It's never stated that the Fanim see snakes as holy, only that they use them to see.

[Curethan]

It's never stated that the Fanim see snakes as holy, only that they use them to see.

True, but preists are like that. They think everything they own is holy ;)

I'm pretty sure that it's common knowledge in Earwa that snakes are holy and pigs are damned unclean. It doesn't have to be a specific religious tenet for it to be a paradigm.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

That's sort of my view - that the truly 'saved' don't go through any of the godlings or ancestors or anything of that nature,and they skip that step entirely and go...somewhere else. Only the damned go to the Outside where either godlings take notice for a variety of reasons (like Yatwer's hatred, frex), or they don't and you're left to the vagaries of the other Outside creatures.

I like this theory. It would mean Fanimry is literally true faith, without making Kiunnat/Inrithism false, or Zeumi beliefs, for that matter. They would still be technically true, only on different, lower level.

[Calibandar]

Regarding the six Inchoroi. Is it ever explicitly stated that Aurang and Aurax are the ONLY two living, and if so, is the speaker one who would know? My point is, there could be others we haven't yet seen or heard of

I am fairly sure that this has been confirmed, but I cannot recall in which book, or if it was in an interview, or a Three Seas comment from Scott.

Edit: Found it.

In TJE, Scott writes:

The fools discovered and awakened the last two surviving Inchoroi, Aurax and Aurang, who had concealed themselves in the labyrithine recesses of the Ark. And at their hoary kness the outlaw Schoolmen learned that damnation, the burden all sorcerers bore, need not be inevitable. They learned that the world could be shut against the judgment of Heaven. So they forged a common purpose with the twin abominations, a Consult, and bent their cunning to the aborted designs of the Inchoroi.

[Madness]

Wow. I think this is the longest lapse in speculation that I've witnessed in the Bakker threads.

I have a question.

I've recently finished up God-Emperor of Dune and moving on to Heretics of Dune in the Dune Saga. We readily cite Lord of the Rings within this thread, however, Bakker leans more heavily on Dune than he does LOTR. Many people seem not to have read the Dune Saga. Hell, I hadn't until recently. My concern is that to discuss it and the Second Apocalypse might spoil too much of Dune or might simply impede speculation because of the need for spoiler tags.

Am I wrong and there's a majority who've read Dune and the sequels? Should I start a new thread devoted to this to satisfy my need? Thanks, peeps.

[The Imp's Advocate]

I've read Dune and its sequels. Can't say I remember it all, especially the later books, but unspoiled discussion is fine by me.

And you're right, there's a lot of dune sensibility in the books, especially visible in the Ikureis, Kelmomas, the WLW, and Kellhus. I think the upswing in LOTR discussion has a lot to do with the obvious moria homage in TJE, at least that's when I noticed it.

[Happy Ent]

In other interview analysis: In addition to locality of damnation taking a hit, I think that answer also deals a (death?) blow to the idea that the Outside is mutable by belief in Earwa.

I’m not sure. Still… the many readers of this board who automatically accept everything I say as scripture might want to reconsider.

For I doubt.

Currently my belief is in a transitional state. For the nonce, it’s still most probable that Scott is wrong, because my own explanation makes too much sense. I would normally reject Barthes, the easiest solution is to adopt the death of the author, reject Scott’s own pronouncements about the metaphysics of “his” universe, and continue my interpretation. It’s hard, because Barthes is full of shit. But it seems necessary.

Sigh.

The things I do for truth.

[Selmy]

Why can't this damn book come out on Kindle?

[Madness]

Ent, I miss your parody.

I'm not sure that there is going to be too much support for the Dune and Second Apocalypse discussion, Imp. However, I'll briefly spoiler some ideas, concepts, characters, themes, I'd like to explore - beware, Major Dune Spoilers:

Moenghus the Elder - Paul Maud'dib

Kellhus - Leto II

Shortest Path - Golden Path

No-God - No-Machine (and all other No-Derivatives)

The Judging Eye - The cloud-darkness of Holy Judgment.

The Dunyain - Bene Gesserit and Leto's breeding programs

The Consult - The Bene Ixians and Bene Tleilax

There's many more less obvious ones I wish to discuss as well. Consider how the Lord of the Rings environment and plot were mirrored with Cil-Aujas. I'm developing a theory that Bakker is doing this with Dune but as if recasting Dune's plot from outside perspectives.

We see inside Paul Maud'dib's vision once he is blinded and know, as the reader, that he is master of circumstance. We see from outside Moenghus - as I theorize the same conceptual events transpire between series - from Kellhus' perspective.

Another thought. Imagine Leto's sacrifice, through his own manufactured assassination, translated to Kellhus and Earwa. Perhaps, Kellhus is, again, orchestrating his own, real or faked, death for some insidious aspect of his Shortest Path.

Obviously, I've got more to write.

Still wondering. Dune and Second Apocalypse here or in a new thread?

[Armitage]

I'm not sure that there is going to be too much support for the Dune and Second Apocalypse discussion, Imp. However, I'll briefly spoiler some ideas, concepts, characters, themes, I'd like to explore - beware, Major Dune Spoilers:

Moenghus the Elder - Paul Maud'dib

Kellhus - Leto II

Shortest Path - Golden Path

No-God - No-Machine (and all other No-Derivatives)

The Judging Eye - The cloud-darkness of Holy Judgment.

The Dunyain - Bene Gesserit and Leto's breeding programs

The Consult - The Bene Ixians and Bene Tleilax

There's many more less obvious ones I wish to discuss as well. Consider how the Lord of the Rings environment and plot were mirrored with Cil-Aujas. I'm developing a theory that Bakker is doing this with Dune but as if recasting Dune's plot from outside perspectives.

Thanks for this, Madness. I'll offer up one more.

Kelmomas/Samarmas - Alia/Baron Harkonnen

It's been years since my last reread of Dune. Looks like it's time.

[The Imp's Advocate]

And of course

Ikureis - Harkonnens. Nothing like choice perversions and base, cunning politicking to add some color to a story

[The Imp's Advocate]

Very worth it. The sequels generally get a more mixed response from people, but the original is sacred.