White-Luck Warrior VI

[jurble]

The fact that people have read Bakker but not Herbert shocks me. I thought for sure that book was a prerequisite to reading TSA.

[Papirolle]

Best sub-title ever? :bowdown:

[themerchant]

I read Dune as a youngster. I imagine I will get much more out of it this time, i'll go and look it out then read the sequels.

Bakker has a massive reveal for us next book i think. He has stated how he's just waiting on folk to see where this is all going and how it'll be worth it. Did anyone work out what the major reveal ("Iceberg turning" might have been the pharse he used) hint was? I think someone postulated it might be Kellhus "grasping the god", i'm at a loss myself for what it could be.

Also re-reading the final few words between the Non-Man and Kellhus, when the Non-man says they worship the space between the gods, and Kellhus states that is why they are damned. The Non-man nods, then when Kellhus appears to agree as false-men, the next nod is "strangely brittle". I know this has been raised before, but I wonder what the Non-men will do as it appears that they have "proof" Kellhus is lying, as it was the Inchies that proclaimed them False-men and not anyone from the outside (Unless the Inchies are from the outside originally).

I also wonder how the Inchies know they are still damned, maybe some sort of volt/ampage/damned meter.

[Kalbear]

I think the major hint will be the Consult talk about the prophecy - the 'real and the fake' one. I think one of the major reveals was (much like the reveal of the Tusk and the Inchies) that the Celmomian prophecy was partially or fully engineered by them - either because they knew events (because the No-God, like the gods, collapses realities) or because they had some say in creating it.

[Curethan]

did someone say

?

[jurble]

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/in-contempt-of-contemplation/

In other news, Bakker decides to respond to a review of his books by the dude he was arguing with a few months back, and then gets into arguments with the dude's fans.

[shortstark]

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/in-contempt-of-contemplation/

In other news, Bakker decides to respond to a review of his books by the dude he was arguing with a few months back, and then gets into arguments with the dude's fans.

Is that our Kal?

[jurble]

Well, that Kal appears to play a Bear in World of Warcraft, and since Kalbear has Bear in his name and plays World of Warcraft, I'm pretty sure it is.

[Curethan]

Is that our Kal?

Yup. You can tell by his cracking aim. (And his lil bear.)

[Kalbear]

It's a badger. The bouncing badger used to be my av here. I still use it elsewhere from time to time.

And sadly I misread Bakker entirely here. I thought he was interested in discussing the review, but he really just wanted to snark on a libertarian. My bad.

[Curethan]

Oh yeh. Badger badger badger badger. ;)

[The Imp's Advocate]

MUSHROOM MUSHROOM!

[lokisnow]

Best sub-title ever? :bowdown:

thanks, :-p

[Paxter]

Following on from the discussion of damnation in the last thread by Kal and others, I’ve attempted a bit of a summary of how the afterlife works in Bakker’s world. It seems to me that there are four possible states of existence after death:

1. Oblivion

Caused by: being Scylvendi or a Nonman.

Note: I am assuming that the idea of non-man damnation as espoused by the Tusk is incorrect and that Nonmen death involves oblivion. I also think it’s worth noting that this state of the afterlife is the one most connected with the No-God.

2. True Redemption/Salvation (i.e. existing in a blissful/heavenly afterlife with angelic Ciphrang)

Caused by: living a virtuous life according to the tenets of the God (whether the immanent God of Inrithism or the transcendant Solitary God of Famimry we do not yet know) or redeemed by Mimara.

Note: This idea of a True Redemption which can be achieved by living in a certain way is consistent with Bakker’s comment that “[t]here is a right and wrong way to believe in Eärwa”.

3. Partial Redemption/Salvation

Caused by: failing to live a virtuous life according to the tenets of the God but “saved” from the clutches of the Ciphrang by: 1) the Hundred Gods after living a life in accordance with one of the Hundred's precepts or; 2) an ancestor net.

Note: According to Fanimry, partial redemption via the Hundred Gods is really equivalent to damnation, since the Hundred are simply Ciphrang masquerading as Gods (this is also consistent with the theory that the Ciphrang were co-opted by the Inchoroi and labelled “Gods” by the Tusk).

4. Damnation (i.e. tortured/devoured by Ciphrang)

Caused by: failing to live in accordance with the tenets of both the God and the Hundred.

The nice thing about the above summary is that it seems to unify the religions of the Scylvendi, Nonmen, Inrithi, Zeumi and Fanim. Probably the glaring inconsistency is the oblivion theory – if the Scylvendi and Nonmen can achieve oblivion simply by not believing in the God/s, why can’t human sorcerers do the same to avoid damnation? There may be other problems as well which I’m sure will be pointed out…

[The Imp's Advocate]

1. Oblivion

Caused by: being Scylvendi or a Nonman.

Note: I am assuming that the idea of non-man damnation as espoused by the Tusk is incorrect and that Nonmen death involves oblivion. I also think it’s worth noting that this state of the afterlife is the one most connected with the No-God.

....

4. Damnation (i.e. tortured/devoured by Ciphrang)

Caused by: failing to live in accordance with the tenets of both the God and the Hundred.

The nice thing about the above summary is that it seems to unify the religions of the Scylvendi, Nonmen, Inrithi, Zeumi and Fanim. Probably the glaring inconsistency is the oblivion theory – if the Scylvendi and Nonmen can achieve oblivion simply by not believing in the God/s, why can’t human sorcerers do the same to avoid damnation? There may be other problems as well which I’m sure will be pointed out…

Where did you get the Oblivion theory from? Isn't that what the Consult is trying to bring about, the total absence of an afterlife, shutting a door on the Outside? Which implies that Oblivion isn't an option now.

[Curethan]

Options 1 thru 3 are exemplified by the various extant belief systems (option 1 is posited, albiet via differing causal conditions, by Cnaiur and Cleric in text, Advocate).

Only damnation is confirmed as being global and objectively defined inside and outside the text, although RSB outlined three options for a soul passing into the outside on the 3c's forum.

there's three basic options: Oblivion, Damnation, or Redemption. The idea is that without the interest of the various 'agencies' (as the Nonmen call them) inhabiting the Outside, one simply falls into oblivion - dies. Certain acts attract the interest of certain agencies. One can, and most Inrithi do, plead to redeemed ancestors to intercede on their behalf, but most give themselves over to some God. Doing so, however, puts their souls entirely into play, and the more sketchy one's life is, the more liable one is to be 'poached' by the demonic, and to live out eternity in everlasting torment.

eta.

I guess oblivion seems fairly straightforward, but we don't know what acts (outside of pleading for intercession or worship) attract the various 'agencies'.

Now, because I should be doing some Programming study instead of posting here, I will posit my theory as a Java method;

'outsideInside.Structuraliztion = perceptions(watcher, watched) + belief(agencies, souls)'

[Happy Ent]

Now, because I should be doing some Programming study instead of posting here, I will posit my theory as a Java method;

'outsideInside.Structuraliztion = perceptions(watcher, watched) + belief(agencies, souls)'

Missing semicolon. Also, did you make belief static?

[Curethan]

Thanks Ent, that's why I should be studying :drunk:

Idk, belief should probly be a runtime object or something. I only just started the unit so I don't really know what I'm talking about yet, haha.

[The Imp's Advocate]

Okay, hang on, I may be mis-interpreting what is meant by Oblivion. I assume it's nothingness, that your soul isn't ripped apart in the Outside and you don't get to have tea with Heavenly!Ciphrang.

Exactly the sort of state the Consult are trying to bring about, because they know they are damned.

If this isn't Oblivion, what is? And if it is, why are the Scylvendi special? Doesn't worshiping the No-God count as worshiping the "wrong sort of god" and end up damning them?

[Paxter]

Okay, hang on, I may be mis-interpreting what is meant by Oblivion. I assume it's nothingness, that your soul isn't ripped apart in the Outside and you don't get to have tea with Heavenly!Ciphrang.

Exactly the sort of state the Consult are trying to bring about, because they know they are damned.

If this isn't Oblivion, what is? And if it is, why are the Scylvendi special? Doesn't worshiping the No-God count as worshiping the "wrong sort of god" and end up damning them?

I'm not sure that we have enough textual info to answer these questions ATM and I admit that my attempt to outline the states of the afterlife is a bit of a stab in the dark. But we do know from Bakker's comments that oblivion is possible in Earwa and its existence is also consistent with the Scylvendi's practice of marking a swazond to represent a soul that no longer exists (not even in an afterlife).