White-Luck Warrior VI

[unJon]

Holy hell this thread is 40 pages of Cal and Kal disagreeing about whether spending eternity having your eyeballs melted while nasty spirits eat the succulent morsels of your soul should be called 'damnation'! Can't we just agree that it's not a place any sane human would want to spend an afterlife, and move on? :shocked:

[jurble]

In Earwa semantics matter. Ergo they matter here.

[unJon]

In Earwa semantics matter. Ergo they matter here.

:lol: Funny on many levels. But they're not really debating whether 'in world' the characters should think of it as 'damnation.' It's more whether, since it's an objective fact, it's misleading to us that Bakker calls it 'damnation.'

[Kalbear]

Yeah, you're right. I'm done with Callan's argument.

[lokisnow]

going in a new direction, 'WHAT DO YOU SEE? I MUST KNOW WHAT YOU SEE."

Frontispiece:

I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit—namely, that a thought comes when “it” wants, not when “I” want . . .

—FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE, BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL

Prologue – The Wastes of Kûniüri

If it is only after that we understand what has come before, then we understand nothing. Thus we shall define the soul as follows: that which precedes everything.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

Mid-prologue – The Wastes of Kûniüri

Nonmen, Sranc, and Men:

The first forgets,

The third regrets,

And the second has all of the fun.

—ANCIENT KÛNIÜRI NURSERY RHYME

This is a history of a great and tragic holy war, of the mighty factions that sought to possess and pervert it, and of a son searching for his father. And as with all histories, it is we, the survivors, who will write its conclusion.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter One – Carythusal

There are three, and only three, kinds of men in the world: cynics, fanatics, and Mandate Schoolmen.

—ONTILLAS, ON THE FOLLY OF MEN

The author has often observed that in the genesis of great events, men generally possess no inkling of what their actions portend. This problem is not, as one might suppose, a result of men’s blindness to the consequences of their actions. Rather it is a result of the mad way the dreadful turns on the trivial when the ends of one man cross the ends of another. The Schoolmen of the Scarlet Spires have an old saying: “When one man chases a hare, he finds a hare. But when many men chase a hare, they find a dragon.” In the prosecution of competing human interests, the result is always unknown, and all too often, terrifying.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Two – Atyersus

I write to inform you that during my most recent audience, the Nansur Emperor, quite without provocation, publicly addressed me as “fool.” You are, no doubt, unmoved by this. It has become a common occurrence. The Consult eludes us now more than ever. We hear them only in the secrets of others. We glimpse them only through the eyes of those who deny their very existence. Why should we not be called fools? The deeper the Consult secretes itself among the Great Factions, the madder our rantings sound to their ears. We are, as the damned Nansur would say, “a hunter in the thicket”—one who, by the very act of hunting, extinguishes all hope of running down his prey.

—ANONYMOUS MANDATE SCHOOLMAN, LETTER TO ATYERSUS

Chapter Three – Sumna

If the world is a game whose rules are written by the God, and sorcerers are those who cheat and cheat, then who has written the rules of sorcery?

—ZARATHINIUS, A DEFENCE OF THE ARCANE ARTS

Chapter Four – Sumna

To be ignorant and to be deceived are two different things. To be ignorant is to be a slave to the world. To be deceived is to be the slave of another man. The question will always be: Why, when all men are ignorant, and therefore already slaves, does this latter slavery sting us so?

—AJENCIS, THE EPISTEMOLOGIES

But despite stories of Fanim atrocities, the fact of the matter is that the Kianene, heathen or no, were surprisingly tolerant of Inrithi pilgrimages to Shimeh—before the Holy War, that is. Why would a people devoted to the destruction of the Tusk extend this courtesy to “idolaters”? Perhaps they were partially motivated by the prospect of trade, as others have suggested. But the fundamental motive lies in their desert heritage. The Kianene word for a holy place is si’ihkhalis, which means, literally, “great oasis.” On the open desert it is their strict custom to never begrudge travelers water, even if they be enemies.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Five – Momemn

The difference between the strong emperor and the weak is simply this: the former makes the world his arena, while the latter makes it his harem.

—CASIDAS, THE ANNALS OF CENEI

What the Men of the Tusk never understood was that the Nansur and the Kianene were old enemies. When two civilized peoples find themselves at war for centuries, any number of common interests will arise in the midst of their greater antagonism. Ancestral foes share many things: mutual respect, a common history, triumph in stalemate, and a plethora of unspoken truces. The Men of the Tusk were interlopers, an impertinent flood that threatened to wash away the observed channels of a far older enmity.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Six – The Jiünati Steppe

It is said: a man is born of his mother and is fed of his mother. Then he is fed of the land, and the land passes through him, taking and giving a pinch of dust each time, until man is no longer of his mother, but of the land.

—SCYLVENDI PROVERB

. . . and in Old Sheyic, the language of the ruling and religious castes of the Nansurium, skilvenas means “catastrophe” or “apocalypse,” as though the Scylvendi have somehow transcended the role of peoples in history and become a principle.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Seven – Momemn

The world is a circle that possesses as many centres as it does men.

—AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN

Chapter Eight – Momemn

Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

—CONRIYAN PROVERB

When we truly apprehend the Gods, the Nilnameshi sages say, we recognize them not as kings but as thieves. This is among the wisest of blasphemies, for we always see the king who cheats us, never the thief.

—OLEKAROS, AVOWALS

Chapter Nine – Sumna

And the Nonman King cried words that sting:

“Now to me you must confess,

For death above you hovers!”

And the Emissary answered ever wary:

“We are the race of flesh,

We are the race of lovers.”

—“BALLAD OF THE INCHOROI,” ANCIENT KÛNIÜRI FOLK SONG

Chapter Ten – Sumna

How should one describe the terrible majesty of the Holy War? Even then, still unblooded, it was both frightening and wondrous to behold, a great beast whose limbs were composed of entire nations—Galeoth, Thunyerus, Ce Tydonn, Conriya, High Ainon, and the Nansurium—and with the Scarlet Spires as the dragon’s maw, no less. Not since the days of the Ceneian Empire or the Ancient North has the world witnessed such an assembly. Even diseased by politics, it was a thing of awe.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Eleven – Momemn

Reason, Ajencis writes, is the capacity to overcome unprecedented obstacles in the gratification of desire. What distinguished man from beasts is man’s capacity to overcome infinite obstacles through reason.

But Ajencis has confused the accidental for the essential. Prior to the capacity to overcome infinite obstacles is the capacity to confront them. What defines man is not that he reasons, but that he prays.

—EKYANNUS I, 44 EPISTLES

Chapter Twelve – The Jiünati Steppe

I have explained how Maithanet yoked the vast resources of the Thousand Temples to ensure the viability of the Holy War. I have described, in outline, the first steps taken by the Emperor to bind the Holy War to his imperial ambitions. I have attempted to reconstruct the initial reaction of the Cishaurim in Shimeh from their correspondence with the Padirajah in Nenciphon. And I have even mentioned the hated Consult, of whom I can at long last speak without fear of ridicule. I have spoken, in other words, almost exclusively of powerful factions and their impersonal ends. What of vengeance? What of hope? Against the frame of competing nations and warring faiths, how did these small passions come to rule the Holy War?

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

. . . though he consorts with man, woman and child, though he lays with beasts and makes a mockery of his seed, never shall he be as licentious as the philosopher, who lays with all things imaginable.

—INRI SEJENUS, SCHOLARS, 36, 21, THE TRACTATE

Chapter Thirteen – The Hethanta Mountains

Even the hard-hearted avoid the heat of desperate men. For the bonfires of the weak crack the most stone.

—CONRIYAN PROVERB

So who were the heroes and the cravens of the Holy War? There are already songs enough to answer that question. Needless to say, the Holy War provided further violent proof of Ajencis’s old proverb, “Though all men be equally frail before the world, the differences between them are terrifying.”

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Fourteen – The Kyranae Plain

Some say men continually war against circumstances, but I say they perpetually flee. What are the works of men if not a momentary respite, a hiding place soon to be discovered by catastrophe? Life is endless flight before the hunter we call the world.

—EKYANNUS VIII, 111 APHORISMS

Chapter Fifteen – Momemn

Many have condemned those who joined the Holy War for mercenary reasons, and doubtless, should this humble history find its way into their idle libraries, they will blast me as well. Admittedly, my reasons for joining the Holy War were “mercenary,” if by that one means I joined it in order to procure ends outside of the destruction of the heathen and the reconquest of Shimeh. But there were a great many mercenaries such as myself, and like myself, they inadvertently furthered the Holy War by killing their fair share of heathen. The failure of the Holy War had nothing to do with us.

Did I say failure? Perhaps “transformation” would be a better word.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.

—AJENCIS, THE FOURTH ANALYTIC OF MAN

Chapter Sixteen – Momemn

Those of us who survived will always be bewildered when we recall his arrival. And not just because he was so different then. In a strange sense he never changed. We changed. If he seems so different to us now, it is because he was the figure that transformed the ground.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Seventeen – The Andiamine Heights

The event itself was unprecedented: not since the fall of Cenei to the Scylvendi hordes had so many potentates gathered in one place. But few knew Mankind itself lay upon the balance. And who could guess that a brief exchange of glances, not the Shriah’s edict, would tip the balance?

But is this not the very enigma of history? When one peers deep enough, one always finds that catastrophe and triumph, the proper objects of the historian’s scrutiny, inevitably turn upon the small, the trivial, the nightmarishly accidental. When I reflect overmuch on this fact, I do not fear that we are “drunks at the sacred dance,” as Protathis writes, but that there is no dance at all.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Eighteen – The Andiamine Heights

. . . and that revelation murdered all that I once did know. Where once I asked of the God, “Who are you?” now I ask, “Who am I?”

—ANKHARLUS, LETTER TO THE WHITE TEMPLE

The Emperor, the consensus seems to be, was an excessively suspicious man. Fear has many forms, but it is never so dangerous as when it is combined with power and perpetual uncertainty.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

Chapter Nineteen – Momemn

. . . even though the skin-spies were exposed relatively early in the course of the Holy War, most believed the Cishaurim rather than the Consult to be responsible. This is the problem of all great revelations: their significance so often exceeds the frame of our comprehension. We understand only after, always after. Not simply when it is too late, but precisely because it is too late.

—DRUSAS ACHAMIAN, COMPENDIUM OF THE FIRST HOLY WAR

[Callan S.]

Kal,

This really reminds me of those shitty conversations with creationists. The ones that say 'if you see a creation, there has to be a creator'.

I think, if you attributing some negative connotations to that (you certainly call it shitty), it's worth both of us considering whether this applies to us. It couldn't be that you're in this position that you describe, rather than me? Or perhaps even both of us? Probably both of us, come to think of it...

There's alot I'd like to answer, but the other patrons here have been kind to indulge my questions to such an extent and this is the second "Haven't we talked about this alot already?" post I've heard. I think I'll try and work up a blog post somewhere and link soonish, to atleast give some responces without further interuptus.

But I'm not that good a guy, so one responce

If you take the retributive nature out of hell, is it still bad?

I can't imagine speaking to you and you mouthing the words damnation or hell, without seeing emotion express itself across your face. I can't imagine there not being some level of passion being there. I'm not disconnected like a Dunyain is, after all. What you feel actually matters to me to some extent. And neither are you a Dunyain, so if I were to see emotion run across your face, you are feeling these things to some extent.

So, if you call object X bad and I care about what you feel, can I take the bad out of X?

Is it still bad? While you keep calling it bad or damned, to the degree that connection is not severed, yes. To a degree.

Call it crazy, but people decide each others emotions to some degree. Start laughing and people start smiling with you - I haven't run a scientific experiment on that I grant, but I think that does happen. Anyone with refuting evidence, hit me up with it - I'd be surprised, but ready to turn on a dime on the matter.

That or maybe you'd say 'damnation' with the same flat, dead intonation you'd say 'heffalump'. Which is why I brought up such an alternate name earlier, to see if indeed it could be adopted at all (the answer then was; no). If such is the case, I could pay I've been way off track for a long time.

Okay, gunna muse over a blog reply now...

[jurble]

Bakker's new blog post

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/condemned-to-the-not-so-new/

What I found interesting is the ending:

And yet, always this fucking hunger for more. Always starved. Always incarcerated.

Watching the likes of Margaret Atwood eat.

God damn that's a good line.

But it makes me think that Bakker is a Sranc.

[aimlessgun]

Glad to see the good old 'damnation' semantics argument still going :D I remember trying to get the preloaded "damnation" replaced with "eternal torture" but it never caught on :(

There's plenty of non-objective morality around too, but that doesn't count for anything.

I find it just as interesting as the 'objective morality' (aka Earwan physics) though. Seeing the places where the subjective moralities of the Earwans don't line up with the physics of their world, and seeing why that's the case. Wondering if we're ever going to get someone other than Kellhus deliberately crafting moralities divorced from the physics.

The Inralatus scenes are mind-blowing to me. It's such a good illustration of a mad genius.

God yes. I don't even know if I can call my experience of Bakker 'enjoyment' half of the time, but one thing is for sure: I will remember.

Anyways glad I finally finished WLW so I can wade through these threads again!

[aimlessgun]

And if it is the case...maybe, just maybe, Kellhus really can find some way to change the rules; find a way to alter the physical laws like damnation, if damnation is like gravity.

I don't think actually altering the physical laws is a good way to look at it, but more along the lines of understanding the mechanics and finding ways to circumvent the results. Such as our understanding of aerodynamics allowing us to use airplanes to circumvent falling, but there is no way we can alter the underlying laws of the universe like gravity.

But I doubt we'll have Bakker writing in the development of the scientific method so the Earwans can more accurately figure out the physicsmorality mechanisms. (Front page of Momemn Times: "Damnion particles detected for the first time in Mandati soul accelerator."!)

[lokisnow]

But I doubt we'll have Bakker writing in the development of the scientific method so the Earwans can more accurately figure out the physicsmorality mechanisms. (Front page of Momemn Times: "Damnion particles detected for the first time in Mandati soul accelerator."!)

I would read that book, and probably love it. one of my biggest problems with most epic fantasy is that all thought/progess/advancement stops with middle ages European standards and they live in 10,000 years of stagnation. blah and blech.

[Sci-2]

The Inralatus scenes are mind-blowing to me. It's such a good illustration of a mad genius.

Yeah, disappointing we found and lost this character so quickly. What was his goal in trying to kill Maitha? Just to commit the ultimate see, to pass the choking veils of custom. That he *sees* custom, and is suffocated by its presence, was an incredible idea.

Also, when Cleric finally explains who he is, the creature born from the subtraction of another man's memory.

For my myriad complaints, the stuff Bakker has come up with in this series is amazing.

[Marcus Cicero]

I like to think that Inrilatas tried to kill Maitha simply to reap as much chaos as possible. Considering his intelligence, he should have realized how likely it was that Maitha would get the better of him. For all his talk about transgressing custom, he wasn't able to do much chained up in that room. So perhaps he just didn't care if he died, but he wanted his death to have great ramifications. Which it did.

[Callan S.]

I thought it was because he could think of no greater madness? He was a thing without bounds, without boundaries. Of course he poured forth, seeking the final ultimate boundry which wouldn't be, to him.

The strange thing is, it suggests in contrast that Kellhus still has boundaries. Well, I guess mission, anyway. Even if he's mad now, he doesn't seem Inralatus mad.

Speaking of, taking it Inralatus is smart and killing uncle holy is an important in the judgement framework (more important than just regular cold blooded murder), thats interesting given Maitha's background? So he actually did carry more spiritiual weight, despite being a puppet (atleast a puppet when put into the holy position)?

And does this mean Kellhus's halo'ed hands are indicative of something that genuinely ties into that judgement framework?