White-Luck Warrior VI

[Sci-2]

hmmm....good point. admittedly i forgot about all of those things he did in WLW. As creepy as it was, I don't hold the sleeping Mimara part as immoral.

[Callan S.]

Please, please, please stop using 'your' when you mean 'you're'. That is really insanely annoying.

When your right, your right!

Too hard to resist - Okay, I will attempt to demure on the "your/you're" thing...

Bakker's world has a mechanism for absolutely saying what is right and wrong along with a reward structure (or penal structure) associated with that.

Kal, I think you're treating morality somewhat like a legal system. Like there are legal systems with real life objective measurements for how fast you can drive, for example.

If that's what you've got in mind, all I can say is I'm not refering to that. It's something that's much, much closer to home, that comes out with 'shoulds' every so often. If this is a point where we differ, since I've gone on and on I'm inclined to think that finding this differing point is a mutual achievement between us and finish for now with those winnings. :)

I don't know? I guess you're implying that Kellhus is going to gain the power to change the universe's fitness function. I don't think that's in his power and I think that would hugely rob the story of a lot of its power, because if you can change things then it's no longer objective.

To me it wasn't objective to begin with, so the story can't be robbed in such a way. I'll pay there was a mechanism that could measure stuff, planet wide, at perfect accuracy, then tack on a torture tag for it.

As stated above, you're missing the point entirely. I'm not removing 'objective' - you did that.

You know what, I was trying to describe something but it slid into obsfucation over posts and I didn't get it out of there, so I'll just pay actually it did just come down to me seperating them, not you. You're right. Dang.

The important thing isn't morality, it's objective morality. The two are not separable as a concept in discussion here.

If your only talking about something that's like a speedometer recording a vehicles speed and whether it goes past X miles per hour, okay.

[Curethan]

Callan. I don't think objectivity is something you're trying to remove from morality. It's something that has been added. For example, Earwan snakes are holy. Unless the snake is one of the rare 'ensouled' snakes it cannot escape this objective moral fact, it is what it is.

Kal is trying to apply that kind of relationship to Earwan humans.

In our world morality is (ostentiably) a subjective expression of absorbed ideas and feelings.

Classical theologicians and philosophers believed otherwise; that morality was defined by god/s and men strove against fate and were judged by their actions and beliefs.

The way I read it, the world of Earwa is objectively moral in that manner - but souled creatures exist partialy outside that world.

Their beliefs and passions have some extra value in this place called the 'outside' and magical energy can be drawn from it (sorcery). It's a realm of subjective morality - physical laws seem to be similarly loose.

So for me there are two exogeneous systems that influence the rules of each other in a fluid manner.

Kal doesn't believe the story possesses that kind of duality though. Physical and moral laws extend and apply inside and out, they are just different from ours - but still consistent.

Fascinating that we can see it so differently, I think.

eta. Kal, I wonder what you make of the idea of re-incarnation as an alternative to damnation? Like, if you escaped the notice of outside agencies entirely... like the dunyain?

[Callan S.]

Classical theologicians and philosophers believed otherwise; that morality was defined by god/s and men strove against fate and were judged by their actions and beliefs.

The way I read it, the world of Earwa is objectively moral in that manner

I still don't call that objective morality. I call that subjective gods creating a subjective morality. Sure, to execute their subjective morality, they use an amazingly powerful machine that measures objectively (like a ruler objectively measures length) to do so. And I find the idea of that machine to be pretty challenging stuff in itself - I don't feel I'm reducing the whole thing to nothing in saying that. I'm just saying rage against the machine...

Ultimately I see the phrase, not surprisingly as it has two words, having two components "Objective" and "Morality", but when I tried to pin down the latter, I think I let things get obscure and didn't tie it back again in time. Bad driving on my part, so to speak.

But careful not to confuse sympathetic with moral. Akka is a liar, murderer and traitor. He even slept with his ex wife's daughter. He knows full well the fate he consigned the skin eaters to, for example. And he knows that his goals are completely selfish in that regard.

Something that facinates me is innocence.

WHY does anyone ever have innocence? If your born innocent, why? Never mind that some cultures would indeed have the sins of the father be the sins of the son.

Why can't innocence be reset, if it can be so easily assigned by being born?

If it can be reset, what deed could not be followed by an instant innocence reset? What butchery or horror? All a moment latter, gone? As if one had been born that very following second, an innocent babe in arms? Heck, I even feel a sick feeling in my throat, when I really think of that? But all the same, why?

That said, presumably the character call Achamian was born innocent. When did he stop being moral? Is being moral a condition? Like innocence, how is one 'moral' or not? Is it a physical condition? Like, say, being a biped is a physical condition? Can you have chips of your 'moral'ness fall away? Much like a biped can lose one or both legs?

In Earwa atleast, it seems an impossible standard to apply to anyone - who is 100% moral there?

And if applying innocence after any act, any deed, seems not right, why is it so easy to retract the quality of 'moral' with as equal glib ease as a innocence reset? Why is damning so easy?

[Kalbear]

eta. Kal, I wonder what you make of the idea of re-incarnation as an alternative to damnation? Like, if you escaped the notice of outside agencies entirely... like the dunyain?

I think reincarnation doesn't exist as a method of being 'saved'; I think that that's largely the mechanism of being damned. I think that the mechanism for being saved is similar to the notion of nirvana in Buddhist thoughts - going outside the Burda, becoming the Buddha and never being associated with the Outside or the earwan world again.

The Dunyain aren't outside the notice either. The only being that has been is the No-God. Kellhus is now a huge target due to what he's done, but the Dunyain before were just not especially targeted because they weren't doing any massive psychic harm to the followers of the Gods. But (if I'm right) the God-universe doesn't care about the gods or anything of that nature and judges everyone equally regardless of where they are or what they've done.

I still don't call that objective morality. I call that subjective gods creating a subjective morality.

If an all powerful, all seeing God that judges everything and defines values to follow and live by isn't objective, what is? I think in this case you are saying that there can never be an objective value system if there is an anthropomorphic God entity. That might be fair, but that is also not the case necessarily in Earwa or Bakker's world either. There's never been a true sighting of God - even Kellhus has not seen him, though he thinks he has.

[Sci-2]

I see morality in Earwa as the system that makes you more vulnerable to damnation. But what seems more questionable/confusing is that worshipping the gods almost saves you from your own sins. Can a worshiper of Gilagol the war god can rape with impunity so long as he is heroic in battle?

And what of the Scylvendi, are they all pretty much damned in the next life but they have never sensed this at all?

[MaerlynsRose]

Hi all! I'm new to the board, but very excited to find people to talk with about this amazing series, as none of my friends have braved it so far. :( I'm so so sorry to interrupt all this great discussion (which I DO intend to join, once I re-read at a slower pace and get as much as I can from it), but I figured this was the most likely place to receive feedback, since the other threads appear to be pretty much dead.

How does everyone go about pronunciation in the world of Earwa? I know there's that extremely brief guide in TDtCB, but it leaves several items unaccounted for. I'm one of those people that is really bothered by language rules, so I lose concentration because I'm wondering if I'm saying it right. So I guess my questions can be summed up thusly:

Ai= long a, as in "say". That's how it is in Cnaiur, according to the glossary, so is that always the case? Is it ever long i, as in "eye"?

Ae= long i as in "eye", or long a as in "say"? Or possibly short a, as in "cat"?

Ei= like the German "eye", or again, like "say"? Or like the Greek, long e as in "see"?

Ea= long e as in "each", or a diphthong, "ee-ah", or another long a? Does it change if it's at the end of a word, like "Gedea" (geh-dee-ah) as opposed to in the middle "Skeaos" (skay-ohs? skee-ohs?)

Au= ow, like "how", or aw, like "raw", or diphthong (aa-oo)? Or possibly just long o "oh", like the French?

U= short or long? Uh or you, oo?

Y= ee or long i?

C= hard or soft? I tend to pronounce it hard when paired with a, o, or u, and soft with i, y, or e. But Kelmomas mentions that Celmomas is his namesake, so do their names sound the same? If so, why the change from "c" to "k"?

Whew! Just curious to know what everyone else hears/reads...has anyone ever heard Scott pronounce anything?

[Curethan]

I think reincarnation doesn't exist as a method of being 'saved'; I think that that's largely the mechanism of being damned. I think that the mechanism for being saved is similar to the notion of nirvana in Buddhist thoughts - going outside the Burda, becoming the Buddha and never being associated with the Outside or the earwan world again.

The Dunyain aren't outside the notice either. The only being that has been is the No-God. Kellhus is now a huge target due to what he's done, but the Dunyain before were just not especially targeted because they weren't doing any massive psychic harm to the followers of the Gods. But (if I'm right) the God-universe doesn't care about the gods or anything of that nature and judges everyone equally regardless of where they are or what they've done.

Yes, I was thinking along the lines of any 'continued' existence in the outside = damnation. Rather than a third spiritual plane or outright oblivion, I was speculating that the soul that escapes damnation returns to be born again, but cleansed of the experiences of the previous life. You know, just not sinning or getting 'tagged' by one of the outside agencies seems a kinda cheap way of going ultimate Buddha.

Not saved, exactly. But not doomed either, a process which might increase the spiritual value (similar to reincarnate Buddhist theory), possibly explaining the 'few' and their potential use of sorcery, for example. Isn't there some strain of buddhism wherein one is born again in the possiblity of achieving enlightenment - and those who sin most greviously (like suicides) must relive their shitty lives infinitely (a bit like the outside?).

Just using the dunyain as an example where they might be very carefuly not breaking any objective laws (no sorcery) and not throwing in with any outside agencies and achieving this (Moe and Kell are both of the few). It could be the ultimate goal of the consult - reincaranation (without fear of damnation) prefered over immortality for some reason.

I'm not attempting to contradict your theory here either. This just strikes me as a possibly apropriate extension that would explain away one of the difficulties I have with it ;)

eta; MaerlynsRose - apparently there used to be a pronunciation guide in the back of some editions of PoN (not mine :( ). You can also try here. If you are of a mind, perhaps you would like to add the fruits of your labours over there. Also, welcome :)

[Kalbear]

I see morality in Earwa as the system that makes you more vulnerable to damnation. But what seems more questionable/confusing is that worshipping the gods almost saves you from your own sins. Can a worshiper of Gilagol the war god can rape with impunity so long as he is heroic in battle?

And what of the Scylvendi, are they all pretty much damned in the next life but they have never sensed this at all?

Be careful to assume that just because you're 'saved' by one of the hundred gods means that you're not damned. The two are not necessarily the same. If Gilgaol decides that you're awesome, he might grab you instead of some random Ciphrang and you'll have an easier time of it in damnation-land. But you're not entirely off the hook - you now get to spiritually blow that god for the rest of eternity. Better than spiritual trepannation, but still sucks to be you.

Just using the dunyain as an example where they might be very carefuly not breaking any objective laws (no sorcery) and not throwing in with any outside agencies and achieving this (Moe and Kell are both of the few). It could be the ultimate goal of the consult - reincaranation (without fear of damnation) prefered over immortality for some reason.

The Dunyain are almost certainly damned. They use abortifacements, kill without any issue or reasonable cause and are almost otherwise entirely immoral. Sorcery is a very explicit way of getting damned but it's certainly not the only one. Kellhus seems to think that the Dunyain would very quickly come to the conclusion they were on the wrong side of the saved/damned cause and believes that this would be impetus to join the Consult.

I think it'd also be an incredibly shitty universe where your two options are either reincarnation and lead a perfectly moral life (which in Bakkerverse seems to imply being a total victim, basically) and keep doing it, or stop doing it when you fuck up enough and get to be assraped by demons for the rest of eternity. Yikes.

[MaerlynsRose]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like anyone has posted on that board in some time, which is why I chose here. I always thought that the pronunciation guide was the guide to two or three names (Kellhus, Serwe, Cnaiur, etc), but it would be amazing if there were a more elaborate one. I've read that thread thoroughly...thanks though!

[Curethan]

The Dunyain are almost certainly damned. They use abortifacements, kill without any issue or reasonable cause and are almost otherwise entirely immoral. Sorcery is a very explicit way of getting damned but it's certainly not the only one.

But we've already established that we don't know what gets you damned. Sorweel claims that you can do whatever you like to sranc but not people, for example. You're just applying your own morality here. And immoral is very different from amoral.

Kellhus seems to think that the Dunyain would very quickly come to the conclusion they were on the wrong side of the saved/damned cause and believes that this would be impetus to join the Consult.

He only makes this conclusion about Moenghus and his subsequent actions as a dunyain upon realising that he had thoroughly damned himself during his time amongst the worldborn, to be fair. And he's a lying liar who lies.

I think it'd also be an incredibly shitty universe where your two options are either reincarnation and lead a perfectly moral life (which in Bakkerverse seems to imply being a total victim, basically) and keep doing it, or stop doing it when you fuck up enough and get to be assraped by demons for the rest of eternity. Yikes.

Well, I think its already an incredibly shitty universe to be born in. And they're not even options - no free choice - so no option other than to be a victim. But hey, Sejenus ascended (if you believe that) and the dunyain think they can too - so there's hope? Lol.

[Kalbear]

But we've already established that we don't know what gets you damned. Sorweel claims that you can do whatever you like to sranc but not people, for example. You're just applying your own morality here.

Actually we have a decent idea of what gets you damned based on Mimara looking at people - specifically...uh, what's his face - Galian? The guy on the slog who she examines and sees his sins. And those sins are largely the basic sins we understand, things like killing innocents or stealing.

He only makes this conclusion about Moenghus and his subsequent actions as a dunyain upon realising that he had thoroughly damned himself during his time amongst the worldborn, to be fair. And he's a lying liar who lies.

No, he thinks it of all the Dunyain - he thinks that once any Dunyain are exposed to the truth about damnation and the Outside they'll realize that their goal of being a self-moving soul and removing as many variables as possible (like damnation) is the best way to achieve it. Damnation isn't the big thing there, but they want to get it off the table too. But there's no reason to think given the horrors Dunyain do on themselves and others that they are somehow saved. I mean, their primary action upon finding Ishual was to deny every notion that the Outside exists and pretend it didn't. Why would they do that if they thought themselves saved?

[Sci-2]

Be careful to assume that just because you're 'saved' by one of the hundred gods means that you're not damned. The two are not necessarily the same. If Gilgaol decides that you're awesome, he might grab you instead of some random Ciphrang and you'll have an easier time of it in damnation-land. But you're not entirely off the hook - you now get to spiritually blow that god for the rest of eternity. Better than spiritual trepannation, but still sucks to be you.

Wait, are you saying that being saved by a god is equivalent to damnation? Or that salvation in the Bakker-verse is just a slight step up from damnation?

[gladius]

When you are chosen by a god you become its eternal servant. Better than being a toy, but i wouldn't call it salvation.

[sologdin]

C= hard or soft? I tend to pronounce it hard when paired with a, o, or u, and soft with i, y, or e. But Kelmomas mentions that Celmomas is his namesake, so do their names sound the same? If so, why the change from "c" to "k"?

no idea on the vowels, but i solve the /s/ v. /k/ dilemma by giving C the effect that it receives in srpskohrvatski, which is to make it a /ts/. that's very difficult for english speakers to pronounce when it's the first sound in a word, but it makes it more interesting.

[jurble]

the C in Celmomas is a K sound methinks. The spelling difference in Kelmomas and Celmomas is supposed to represent that one name is Kuniuric and the other is Sheyic.

[Kalbear]

Wait, are you saying that being saved by a god is equivalent to damnation? Or that salvation in the Bakker-verse is just a slight step up from damnation?

I'm saying that this is what I think happens to most people in Bakkerland:

1. They're damned and go to damnation.

2. If they're Zeum, they get rescued by their ancestors and hang out in a sort of odd grouping. They're still in hell, but at least it's their own personal corner of hell.

3. If they're Inrithi and they worshipped one of the hundred gods quite a bit, that godling has a good bead on that person. The godling will likely grab them and use them for their own personal tampon for a while.

4. If they're Fanim, they're fucked.

5. If none of the above, it's ciphrang tentacle rape for eternity.

In any case, I'm saying that being 'saved' by a godling doesn't mean you're not in a state of damnation. You're still in hell.

[Sci-2]

Not sure about the Zeum thing, I thought that was all about ancestors leading you into a back door of Heaven?

[Curethan]

Actually we have a decent idea of what gets you damned based on Mimara looking at people - specifically...uh, what's his face - Galian? The guy on the slog who she examines and sees his sins. And those sins are largely the basic sins we understand, things like killing innocents or stealing.

That's subjective. Concepts like innocence and ownership exist only in the mind. I can see how innocence could be an objective state of 'not damned', but stealing doesn't really work.

I really think that if we're going to run with the concept of objective morality then the outside has to be a projection of the 'soul scape' in it's entirety, not just a thousand kinds of hell. Human nature just makes damnation a lot more common.

Innocence exists in a objective form as a protusion from its subjective home in the outside, just like hate and lust. When Mim veiws someone with the JE she sees their souls where they connect with the outside - their subjective experience made real.

And this is why I am insistent on freewill being included in the equation. Whether its actual choice or only the illusion of it. Because when a bear kills a child according to its causal situation, no damnation results. When Galian does it, he is damned. It's the power of Galian's subjective experience that is his undoing. It's only real because he carries it with him - his guilt is the most likely 'damnation emitting particle'. Which explains why Mim tells him it's not too late.

But y'know, that takes us back towards the old 'beliefs shaping the outside' arguement so I should drop it here.

No, he thinks it of all the Dunyain - he thinks that once any Dunyain are exposed to the truth about damnation and the Outside they'll realize that their goal of being a self-moving soul and removing as many variables as possible (like damnation) is the best way to achieve it. Damnation isn't the big thing there, but they want to get it off the table too. But there's no reason to think given the horrors Dunyain do on themselves and others that they are somehow saved. I mean, their primary action upon finding Ishual was to deny every notion that the Outside exists and pretend it didn't. Why would they do that if they thought themselves saved?

"The crimes you've committed, Father ... the sins ...When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dunayin, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy ... And you will war as they war."

Now Moenghus, as a dunyain, has spent years planning and implementing this whole fiasco in order to oppose the consult. Don't you think it would have been easier to go and enlist with the consult 10 years ago? Kellhus predicts a change of heart on Moe 'realising' he's damned. What is going to trigger that? Crazy Kellhus taking over.... It's a bunch of crap, Kellhus was always going to kill him. Kellhus is absolutely freaking out at that point in their conversation, he's either lying, rationalizing his craziness or being influenced by the TFT/god/no-god.

Not saved, just not damned. They want to avoid getting caught in the outside, if reincarnation increases the ability to percieve the world as God intended (following Cleric's sermon about oblivion as becoming) I could see how the original dunyain could have hit upon this idea as a method of achieving enlightment. But its just idle speculation, I thought you might find it interesting is all.

3. If they're Inrithi and they worshipped one of the hundred gods quite a bit, that godling has a good bead on that person. The godling will likely grab them and use them for their own personal tampon for a while.

There is no real reason to think that the hundred don't reward their leal followers with a sweet afterlife. But I agree, they probably don't, lol.

[Curethan]

Re: prununciation.

Cnaiur and Carlsfeni over at 3 seas were quite cunning linguists. There is some good discussion of possible pronunciations etc on this 3c's thread if you didnt find it.