[aDwD spoilers] Revisiting Rhaegar

[The Bronze Wyvern]

I have never been a fan of the Targaryens in general, to be honest. Did the Seven Kingdoms NEED unifying back before the conquest? Nope, things on Westeros had been ticking along just fine. The Targaryens just took, using their dragons, just like their Valyrian forebears. The origin story of the Faceless Men makes it clear that they were cruel, imperious, slaving despots. The Doom, I have always felt, was their just desserts (I'm sure they brought it on themselves in some way). The Targaryens escaped the Doom, and cynically converted to the Faith so as to aid theor acceptance after they had beaten everyone into submission. Granted, ending Black Harren's line probably helped the Riverlands, but other than that? It was a needless conquest.

Let's take a look at the backstory post conquest. Maegor the Cruel didn't get that name by accident. Baelor the Blessed neglected the realm to PRAY. Daeron led a conquest of Dorne that didn't stick and cost thousands of lives. The Dance of the Dragons led to a massive civil war. Ditto Aegon the Unworthy legitimising his great bastards. Even kings fondly remembered, like Aegon V, seem to have made poor decisions (his childrens' weddings, Summerhall). When we get to Aerys II, who was legitimately mad, murdered his lords and planned to incincerate King's Landing...well, what a dynasty huh?

Rhaegar, in fairness, seems to have had good intentions. But if you chase prophecy, bad things tend to happen. Look at Dany, she sent Jorah away, but was he one of the three treasons? It kind of seems not after this book. Rhaegar made some real errors, the mystery surrounding Lyanna's disappearance chief among them. He probably should have had his father set aside (cf. for example, Henry VI and George III) before Harrenhal, and in spending most of Robert's Rebellion at the TOJ he probably threw away any chance the loyalists had of winning.

Most of the love for Rhaegar comes from the commons (Cersei recollects this), who wouldn't know the full story, just that he looked dashing, or from people who loved him (Cersei, Connington). Barristan is the closest to an objective point of view, and it seems that there was much about Rhaegar he didn't know.

So, I agree with the OP in the sense that the amount of information we have makes him an ambiguius figure. He isn't the blackheart Robert and Brandon thoguht he was, but he wasn't the perfect knight either. Typical of Martin really, nobody is perfect, everyone has a fatal flaw.

[Lady of Casterly Rock]

You wanna explain that one?

It is a theory in this forum that Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree.

If this is true she won the joust on the first day before but did not appear on the second day. Aerys send Rhaeger to search the kotlt and claimed he did not find him. People speculate that he really fond Lyanna and because she could not win the tourney, he gave her the crown instead.

[jack merridew]

""Also, I get the strong impression that Connington's feelings for the prince were unrequited, which makes the whole thing even more poignant. ""

where did you get that impression, multiple people have said that Rhaegar and Connington were friends.

[L13]

""Also, I get the strong impression that Connington's feelings for the prince were unrequited, which makes the whole thing even more poignant. ""

where did you get that impression, multiple people have said that Rhaegar and Connington were friends.

A lot of people have picked up on the romantic undertones of Connington's relationship with Rhaegar. At a recent signing, GRRM himself confirmed that Connington was in love with Rhaegar, and that Rhaegar did not return his feelings.

[Dragonfish]

""Also, I get the strong impression that Connington's feelings for the prince were unrequited, which makes the whole thing even more poignant. ""

where did you get that impression, multiple people have said that Rhaegar and Connington were friends.

The poster you quoted (by the way, if you want to quote someone just use the quote button at the bottom of their post) was talking about Connington's romantic feelings for Rhaegar. Obviously the two of them were friends, but Connington's love for Rhaegar was probably unrequited. (I believe another poster asked GRRM about this, and he confirmed it was true. I think it's in the "Gay POV in Dance" thread.)

[Sasha Steelsong]

""Also, I get the strong impression that Connington's feelings for the prince were unrequited, which makes the whole thing even more poignant. ""

where did you get that impression, multiple people have said that Rhaegar and Connington were friends.

I think it is the difference between friends like Robert and Ned where when they were young, or "friends" like Loras and Renly were. For Rhaegar it seemed to me to be the first, while for Connington it seemed more the second.

[jack merridew]

my misconception, sorry

[BoldAsYouPlease]

Rhaegar came across in a less positive light in this book. I think he turned a blind eye towards Aerys's creeping madness and excesses, even when Aerys began to suspect Rhaegar himself of plotting to overthrow him. He finally had realized that changes needed to be made by the time when he was leaving for the Trident, but by then it was much too late.

This doesn't seem very fair to Rhaegar - turning traitor by all the laws of the land and deposing your rightful king is hard enough, but Aerys was also his father. Each time the Targaryens had turned on each other before, during the first Dance of Dragons and the Blackfyre rebellion, it meant war and the Seven Kingdoms suffered for it. For most of the realm, Aerys' reign was a time of peace and plenty under Tywin Lannister's rule as Hand. The only people upset with Aerys were the nobles who eventually rose up against him.

[Red Dirt]

a drunken lecher and stupid enough to not be able to tell that his own wife has not let him finish inside her for years and all of his kids are his brother-in-laws.

That is funny

[Han Solo]

A lot of people have picked up on the romantic undertones of Connington's relationship with Rhaegar. At a recent signing, GRRM himself confirmed that Connington was in love with Rhaegar, and that Rhaegar did not return his feelings.

I caught that Connington was in love with Rhaegar pretty much straight away, but I didn't know that Rhaegar did not reciprocate. A shame as that would have been interesting, but I suppose it does make Connington's devotion to YG more poignant.

[villager]

1. He didnt just read the prophecy, it came in a dream by a Targ & since its common knowledge their dreams come true

"What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise!"

Want to a take a guess who said that and about whom?

And there is no source for the origins of the prohpecy, BTW.

2. He didnt declare it infront of the bloody realm, its believed he gave her the crown because he felt she deserved it for being the KOTLT

OH really? So all the nobles of the kingdom just assumed "wait, this guy just declared a betrothed girl who is not his wife the queen of loveliness... nah it can't be that he's actually enamored with the girl, it's strictly platonic!" Is that why Selmy considered his inability to beat Rhaegar and thus prevent this entire charade his greatest failure?

3. Being a Targ, he didnt need a divorce. They are allowed to have more than one wife without affecting the status of the other, besides its believed that she knew & probably approved since he told her(according to the vision) that he needed one more after Aegon's birth.

Aaaaaaaand you totally miss the point that him eloping is a stupid idea.

4. If he didnt actually kidnap Lyanna, then he had no reason to think everything that happened would happen. & NO, he didnt abandon his post(since he's not the king yet) & AGAIN he didnt abandon his family

So he just disappeared with a girl and assumed that nobody is going to think it's a kidnapping? Oh yeah, that's smart. And let me see, does disappearing for a year and not contacting your family at all constitute abandoning? I think yes.

5. AGAIN he didnt abandon her, Land of her family??? He's the bloody prince and heir apparent. He can go anywhere he bloody wishes

And the belief that he can't do whatever he want doesn't make him an idiot? You know there's a golden little prince in the books that thought the same thing and everybody thinks he has the mental capacity of a gnat.

6. Maybe he didnt kidnap Lyanna, And u say it like they used radios that he decided to turn off

Oh because the CROWN PRINCE is utterly incapable of hearing news about the outside world? One moment you say that he can do whatever the hell he wants, and now he can't even get a decent news courier service. Oy vey.

7. Three swordsmen will make no difference in a war, and what if they are protecting 2 ppl thought to be of the royal family (Lyanna & her baby) What difference does it make if he took them or not. At this point i think u're just picking at straws

OH REALLY? Because the battle TOTALLY wasn't decided by single combat. Nevermind in this fantasy world we have a billion examples of famous knights making all the difference. Gregor Clegane? Pschht, if we replaced him with a monkey nothing would change! Thus, the three best knights wouldn't be worth anything!

You say he was riding out to kill Eddard, the moment Aerys killed Rickard & Brandon as well as all the other Lords & their sons, negotiating a peace was off the table. He had to win the war first. You think they'll turn back of he said "Don't worry people, i'll just depose my dad & its all ok"

... what?

[Han Solo]

2. He didnt declare it infront of the bloody realm, its believed he gave her the crown because he felt she deserved it for being the KOTLT.

He embarrassed and stood up his ill and sickly wife in front of almost all of nobility in the realm. Even if Elia knew why he did it, no one else did, and therefore he still comes across as an ass for doing it.

3. Being a Targ, he didnt need a divorce. They are allowed to have more than one wife without affecting the status of the other, besides its believed that she knew & probably approved since he told her(according to the vision) that he needed one more after Aegon's birth.

I really don't buy this one. Even if we assume that Elia believed in the prophecy of TPTWP, and then if we also assume she held Oberyn's type of views on sexuality rather than Doran's or Quentyn's, why would she not demand that Rhaegar take a woman of low birth? As Lyanna is highborn, a second marriage would not only be a giant stain on her honour(even if she didn't care, the Dornish did), but also the offspring of Lyanna and Rhaegar would be a possible threat to her own children.

[villager]

Well, Aerys was imprisoned, tormented and threatened by them for half a year, IIRC. And it doesn't seem all that different from what Tywin or Randyll Tarly might have done in retaliation for something like that. Heck, the traditional Westerosi "crow cages" are a very cruel punishment indeed.

Basically, in the eyes of most Darklyns and Hollards deserved it, even if it was a little excessive.

I doubt it. Exterminating two entire family lines by fire and torture is hardly something commonly seen in the books. Even Tywin wanted to spare Elia, and he certainly wanted nothing like tearing out tongues and womanly parts.

Even if I assume this is sarcasm it makes no sense at all, since I just suggested that Aerys had exhibited increasing paranoia since Duskendale, not going from perfectly normal to roasting high lords over one day.

Oh you totally miss the point. Ok, let me put it in simpler terms.

Day 1 - Rhaegar: Oh I guess it's time to elope now. Is my dad crazy? No he's totally fine.

Day 21 - Aerys: Hmm these lords are coming to me demanding my son. Oh strange, I have this odd desire to roast them.

Or if you missed the point, the time between Rhaegar leaving and Aerys demonstrating madness of the highest scale isn't particularly long. Capiche?

Well, lets see. The Darklyns and Hollards didn't just directly defy Aerys, they imprisoned him.

Which is quite a lot more than the Reynes and Tarbecks did to Tywin Lannister.

So apparently Kevan Lannister is an idiot for not getting rid of 'Mad Tywin' during their youth.

Except nowhere in the book does it say Tywin actually executed each of those families. The two could have easily been destroyed by the battle and the siege. Instead, we have Aerys personally ordering the torture and execution of the two entire families. Get the difference?

And yes, having Serala the Lace Serpent's womanly parts torn out was pretty over the top. But it is a brutal world and similar behaviour is not unknown elsewhere either. She was a treacherous snake believed to be the moving force behind the Defiance of Duskendale.

Pretty over the top? If that's the beginning I shudder to think what the middle is.

If any of these points resembled a fact, they might be worth answering.

Try redoing them with a little less ridiculous hyperbole and a little more thought.

Don't blame me if you can't extract the ideas from the sarcasm.

[Ygritte]

The one fair point IMO is the crowning of Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal. That was completely and utterly idiotic and smacks of a complete naivety in terms of politics. There was no way that could have gone down well and there are just so many things wrong with it.

If I'm not mistaken about history, courtly love, etc., IIRC, it was actually pretty common to use tournaments as an excuse to flirt extramaritally. Women would give a favor to men they fancied; the man would fight "for her" and crown her if he won. It might have been personally hurtful to an ignored spouse, but I don't think it would have necessarily made a huge political incident all by itself.

An example: Henry VIII, when trying to woo Mary Boleyn, threw a tournament with an "unrequited love" theme and decorated his horse with a banner that said "she has wounded my heart." He was married at the time. It didn't create any kind of diplomatic incident (that was her sister, later, when it became a matter of putting the queen aside rather than just adultery), though I'm sure Catherine was none too pleased personally. It worked for Henry, as it happened, and Mary was his mistress for a while after that.

I always figured the reason Rhaegar not crowning Elia at Harrenhal was such a shock was that he always did crown Elia before that. Which was probably weird. Most guys probably wore the favors of their mistresses (or at least women they wished were their mistresses) all the time.

[Maysek22]

I dont get all the Rhaegar hate. From all the musings and so forth, my understanding of Rhaegar is that he was an introverted scholar and musician who learned arms because he read/dreamt prophecies that said he'd need to be able to fight. It is known that he used to disapear to the ruins of summerhall for extended periods to write music and think; he wouldnt even let the kingsguard follow him there.

I find people tend to paint characters in the story with a modern brush. Additionally, we have the advantage of reading from multiple POV's somthing that happened in the past. If i see one more "Rhaegar should have known this would happen" threads i'm going to pull my hair out. History, both great and small is based on one foible or another, and using retrospect to judge a historical figure whether in fiction or not is foolish. Who thought that assasinating Ferdinand would lead to the start of the great war and millions of deaths? Now in retrospect i can say, due to the regional politcal instability in addition to a destabalized economy on top any other factors you can come up with, it is OBVIOUS, that that one action would result in the death of over 1 million people and would set politcal landscape in europe for the next century. Those IDIOTs are STUPID for not realizing every single potential eventuality when they signed off on an assasination. FOOLS!

I dont think Rhaegar thought what he did would start a war, possibly end his familys line or anything else, and i especially dont think he's an idiot or stupid for not realizing this. Why would he? His family had ruled the land for over 300 years with an iron fist. Why would he possibly thing that that drunken buffoon robert baratheon would raise an army to get lyanna back? Is there some historical precedent in his familys history that had told him robert would be able to rally half the nation to his cause?

Additionally, if, as i believe he didnt kidnap Lyanna, but merely eloped like two young lovers in some sad tradgedy, why would he think the starks would loose their shit over it? Or even if he did, why would he care? No one had ever posed a REAL threat to Targaryen dominance, why would that change now b/c he stole baratheons g/f?

I feel that what little that has been shown about Rhaegars character is very different from the rapeing, kidnapping, setting the K/G to kill Lyanna, crazy person i've been reading about. In fact as far as the books go, i havent read one truly negative thought about rhaegar other than by dirty ol' robert, who is so stupid he could have a chinese baby and STILL not get that it wasnt his.

Show me evidence of bizarro rhaegar - one POV that says he was the mad, rapey kidnappy type and i will be the first to change my tune, but until then...leave the poor bastard alone

[villager]

I dont think Rhaegar thought what he did would start a war, possibly end his familys line or anything else, and i especially dont think he's an idiot or stupid for not realizing this. Why would he? His family had ruled the land for over 300 years with an iron fist. Why would he possibly thing that that drunken buffoon robert baratheon would raise an army to get lyanna back? Is there some historical precedent in his familys history that had told him robert would be able to rally half the nation to his cause?

Additionally, if, as i believe he didnt kidnap Lyanna, but merely eloped like two young lovers in some sad tradgedy, why would he think the starks would loose their shit over it? Or even if he did, why would he care? No one had ever posed a REAL threat to Targaryen dominance, why would that change now b/c he stole baratheons g/f?

The fact that he, as the crown prince in a dynasty with ironclad control of the realm, felt he had to ELOPE doesn't sound any alarms for you? He's incredibly smart and eloping is the best option he could find?

"Oh woe is I, the most powerful man in a kingdom because my dad is crazy anyways, who must flee to the ends of the earth for my woman!"

How much faith does he have in his family's power if he doesn't even think he can take a highborn girl for himself without disappearing?

Even without that, do you really think a genius is going to plan his life based on some old prophecy he read as a kid? There is another character in the book who spent a life doting on a prophecy, and she's not a genius. Why give Rhaegar the slack?

[kg1982]

One of the most idiotic decisions in the book is Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping or running off with each other or whatever they were doing. And I place the blame for that decision on the supposed adult in the situation, with two young children.. Rhaegar. The guy was in his mid-20s at the time and had two young children, which makes him about a decade older than Lyanna. You'd think that a married man and father as well as the crown prince would think twice about abandoning his family and starting a war in the process.

Yes.. I know that there was a prophecy. But one would think that it could be completed more delicately than it was... Newborn baby Jon wasn't going to start riding a dragon and killing Others right then and there.

[Dragonfish]

How much faith does he have in his family's power if he doesn't even think he can take a highborn girl for himself without disappearing?

It's possible they were hiding from both their families. Rhaegar had a strained relationship with Aerys, and he doubtless didn't want the KotLT anywhere near his paranoid father. That's why they had to run off to a secret location: because neither one of their families approved of their relationship.

[The Faceless Bard]

I know there is alot to the story that we don't know, but Rhaegar comes off as a terrible husband to Elia.

While Robert comes off as the perfect one right?

[A Time for Wolves]

I completely agree with Villager. Rhaegar may not have been dishonorable, exactly, but he was an idiot, and insensitive to his wife. I find a lot of the excuses for Rhaegar and Lyanna - but it was a prophecy! but Elia was in on the whole thing! - a little tiring, because first of all, Rhaegar and Lyanna are already far too romantic, idealized and unrealistically "good", at least from what we've heard so far. Yet their actions absolutely don't bear it out, and if there's one thing that GRRM has shown it's that nobody is ever quite as good as they seem, or as bad.

Also, it seems like a stretch to believe that Lyanna, Elia and Rhaegar were all convinced that they were fulfilling some prophecy based on something that Rhaegar had read once, or dreams he had. It's a very different trio from Meera, Jojen and Bran - in the latter case, both Jojen and Bran have special powers, and Meera has grown up with Jojen and is familiar with his powers. Moreover, the crannogmen are closer to nature/mystical powers of the old gods, as Jojen tells in Bran in ADWD. So it makes a little more sense when that trio escape beyond the Wall in search of the three-eyed crow, which looks like a crazy scheme otherwise.

But unless Lyanna was a greenseer/warg like her nephews and nieces, or unless Elia had some previous inclination towards mystical shit, I absolutely do not see how Rhaegar convinced both of them that they were doing this crap for the greater good. And also, I disagree with almost all of the decisions he made. Let me respond to something I read further upthread:

2. He didnt declare it infront of the bloody realm, its believed he gave her the crown because he felt she deserved it for being the KOTLT

Who cares if he had a perfectly good reason to admire her? Crowning her like that in front of everyone was guaranteed, guaranteed, to make everyone else immediately assume he was interested in her romantically (which, as it turned out, may have been the right assumption) and that he intended to insult his wife. Rhaegar may not have intended to insult Elia, as Barristan remembers that he was fond of her, but then he was extremely insensitive and stupid to not realize what it meant for Elia - and for Dorne, even if Elia was like, "Yeah, crown the Stark girl, I'm cool with that."

4. If he didnt actually kidnap Lyanna, then he had no reason to think everything that happened would happen. & NO, he didnt abandon his post(since he's not the king yet) & AGAIN he didnt abandon his family

Wait...what? Since when do you have to be king to "abandon your post"? He's the fucking CROWN PRINCE. That means he has obligations, especially when there's a rebellion on his father's doorstep. This isn't a normal family, it's a feudal family. A prince belongs to his king, not to himself. He had responsibilities and he shunned them. Hiding in the red mountains to cozy up with his little love was not only extraordinarily selfish, but just...so stupid, as if he's blind to reality and lost in his own little world. That's the only way I can explain his irrational behavior.

And I don't understand why Rhaegar would "have no reason to think that everything that happened would happen." The only thing Rhaegar couldn't anticipate was his father's crazy reaction, but he must have known - if he was as clever as he's said to be - that he was going to make serious enemies. This supposed ignorance of consequences is the most popular excuse that Rhaegar's defenders come out with - that Brandon Stark was the irresponsible, stupid one, not Rhaegar. I do not understand this. Rhaegar insulted House Stark, House Baratheon and House Martell. We know from Barristan's POV that seducing a noblewoman was "dishonoring her", but we shouldn't need Barristan to tell us that, it's bloody obvious. What did Tywin Lannister do when his despised dwarf son was kidnapped by Catelyn Stark? He raised an army and all but declared war on the riverlands. So how is an older brother going to react when his sister is supposedly kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen? Brandon Stark was rash, but he was completely in the right. Rhaegar was a fool not to realize that he was going to make enemies out of this.

5. AGAIN he didnt abandon her, Land of her family??? He's the bloody prince and heir apparent. He can go anywhere he bloody wishes

Actually, no. The Seven Kingdoms bend the knee to House Targaryen, but the Lords Paramount are vassals, not servants. Many of their families are older than the Targaryens. They have dignity, pride and strict notions about honor and reputation, and the successful Targaryen kings understood that. Hiding the girl he had publicly dishonored Elia with in Dorne wasn't just thumbing his nose at Dorne, it was sort of like pissing on them as well.

Rhaegar was selfish and foolish. I have never been a fan, and I was frustrated that it took five novels for a character other than Robert to admit that Rhaegar made mistakes, and other people paid for them.