Struggling with AFfC

[Mattyp]

<snip>

ASOS gives us a more exciting start to be sure with the Others being right around the corner. Although I personally don't like it very much because we follow Chett with his grand scheme for most of the pages and it ultimately is meaningless.

I think AFFC as a book is different in that I think throughout we are shown more of the macro view of Westeros. In the earlier novels, the reader only sees the world through a few narrow viewpoints, never getting to see how all of these wars were impacting the people. So while we don't get to hear from Dany and the others we get a richer picture of the whole landscape.

Personally I think it was important for GRRM to show Chett's scheming as it lessened the surprise that the Black Brothers would turn against Mormont. If it had come out of the blue I think the audience would've been a bit too stunned. Planting that seed of doubt into the readers mind made the Black Brother's betrayal a little more 'acceptable'.

[An Ironborn Son]

I agree with that although I don't think the reader would be completely off guard considering that most of the newer recruits are taken from prisons and other areas where people aren't wanted. At one time the Black Brothers might have been viewed with respect but for the most part are now a pale shadow of former glory.

[Tom of Sevenstreams]

For what it's worth I'm also having a difficult time with Feast. A lot of the characters are new and I'm not remotely emotionally invested in them. They are interesting in the sense that the Iron Islands and Dorne are new to us, but less interesting in the sense that I don't care as much about them as I do about other characters.

I find myself having a strong rooting interest for the Starks and after the red wedding it's been difficult for me, the despair I feel over the loss of their power and the betrayal was tough for me to deal with. Then to have to read about a kingsmoot and the sand snakes... it's interesting but by the same token I am desperate for some type of something to rise up and punish Cersei, the Freys, Boltons et al.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

Okay so I now have finished my reread of AFFC and I can say that enjoyed quite a bit more the second time around, although I still feel it is the weakest of the series that I have read (ADWD coming up next!) Brienne's chapters were a mostly a trial to get through, as were Sam's (perhaps even more so) and the characterization/motivation was hit or miss at times. Cersei's chapters weren't boring but she remains as unsympathetic as ever and her rationale for pretty much any action she made was absurd.

That being said, perhaps the best passage I have ever read from Martin is to be found in this book, and here I am referring to a Brienne chapter (surprise!) around page 350 or so (so if you haven't gotten that far beware of spoilers, but I will try and be vague. The septon has an extended monologue regarding the difference between broken men and standard outlaws, and it is perhaps the most emotionally rich writing in the series that I have encountered. I nearly was tearing up from its sincerity. You know Martin was investing a great deal of significance in the passage since it was a monologue and these tend to carry a great deal of weight. Here in a few paragraphs the costs of war on Westeros were so eloquently detailed. I could not help but reread it several times over.

[Gandalf Lundgren]

I started reading this one 3 days ago and it hasn't held my attention, which is sad. When a book loses my attention, it gets put down and forgotten about. And that's a shame because I LOVE the first 3, especially the third. If I have to rough it through another forgettable chapter I will regrettably put the series to rest.

[Mattyp]

I started reading this one 3 days ago and it hasn't held my attention, which is sad. When a book loses my attention, it gets put down and forgotten about. And that's a shame because I LOVE the first 3, especially the third. If I have to rough it through another forgettable chapter I will regrettably put the series to rest.

To be honest I think GRRM 'peaked' with the first three books, and is struggling to recapture what made them so good. I've started reading a few chapters from ADWD whilst I get through Feast for Crows, and it still seems like a slow read. The Amazon reviews for Dance with Dragons are even worse than for Feast.... :worried:

[The_Hand]

To be honest I think GRRM 'peaked' with the first three books, and is struggling to recapture what made them so good. I've started reading a few chapters from ADWD whilst I get through Feast for Crows, and it still seems like a slow read. The Amazon reviews for Dance with Dragons are even worse than for Feast.... :worried:

I am also pretty worried about the reviews for ADWD. I am a little disappointed that he keeps adding new characters, I find it hard to care about any of them. I was a big fan of the show LOST, but when the end came I realized they were just making it up as the went along, and never had a ending planned. I think that ruined the entire show, I just hope this doesn't turn out the same.

[Mattyp]

I am also pretty worried about the reviews for ADWD. I am a little disappointed that he keeps adding new characters, I find it hard to care about any of them. I was a big fan of the show LOST, but when the end came I realized they were just making it up as the went along, and never had a ending planned. I think that ruined the entire show, I just hope this doesn't turn out the same.

GRRM has been quoted as saying he hope he doesn't 'pull a lost'.

I'm of the opinion that up until ASOS that novels were heavily planned out. When his plans fell through after ASOS he has since been making it up as he goes, trying to cover too many basis at once with all the additional characters. With all the additional POVs he has had to spend a lot more time going backwards and forwards to make sure things make sense.

[Gandalf Lundgren]

What do you mean "his plans fell through after ASOS?" What happened?

[Mattyp]

What do you mean "his plans fell through after ASOS?" What happened?

His next novel was meant to be based 2 years after ASOS, but he realised there were going to be far too many plot holes so he started writing ADWD to cover the 2 year period. ADWD then got so big he had to split the novel, hence a Feast for Crows.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

What do you mean "his plans fell through after ASOS?" What happened?

I am thinking it is a reference to the planned five year gap that Martin initially intended between ASOS and the next volume in the series. He scrapped that idea because he felt that too much would have to be explained in the next book and so went back to the drawing board. I may be wrong though.

[The_Hand]

I am thinking it is a reference to the planned five year gap that Martin initially intended between ASOS and the next volume in the series. He scrapped that idea because he felt that too much would have to be explained in the next book and so went back to the drawing board. I may be wrong though.

I haven't finished AFfC yet, but does AFfC and ADWD cover a 5 year period? So far this book feels like filler, which is a little disappointing because I am really looking forward to finding out what my favorite characters are up to. It also feels like this could end up spiraling out of control the way he keeps adding characters. I am starting to have a hard time keeping up with them all.

[The Bread Viper]

Having read all the reviews on Amazon and various bits online I was worried about AFFC. However I'm about 100 pages in and to me it is pretty seamless. As a new reader who has devoured all the books over a short space of time I know that the cliché is that it would have been disappointing after the long wait but to me it makes perfect sense.

I'm actually interested in hearing about the rest of the world. It is filler in that sense but it's filler that I had wondered about when it had been referenced in the other books. I want to know all about the other areas for starters, particularly Dorne after loving Oberyn in ASOS. Getting an image of the South full stop is very interesting as it reminds you how big the seven kingdoms are and also that you have a very narrow view of events based on a few houses when the influences, pressures and desires of the kingdom are far more complex and rich then just Stark vs Lannister.

Also sorting out the Iron Islands makes sense as they control much of the North and the war in the South is done. The Bolton vs Greyjoy battle is the last remaining part of the war and the impact it will have on what is happening on the wall will be huge. I wouldn't be happy with a 'oh My Lord, Roose Bolton has defeated the Iron men' and that is that resolution. The Starks were wardens of the North so the battle to see what will appear in their place and of course the unlikely hope that it will be fallible enough for them to one day return is interesting. I don't really see why people wouldn't want to know that.

The general tone is bound to be more reflective as you're basically in the lull where everyone is burying their dead and considering what they have done. It's a natural phase I don't like the books because they are constant rollercoaster war stories, I like the characters and the development of them and the story. As it's based on the medieval era a war is always around the corner anyway.

I can see how not having certain characters could be disappointing when you consider the wait to the next book which I won't have to suffer but there are still plenty of them there. I can see how Brienne could become a bit tedious walking around looking under rocks for Sansa and moaning about honour but I'll give her a chance as all the other pov's have been characterised by the fact they have been on 'journeys' and have changed and developed accordingly. Also I've read the first Araya chapter and am dying to know what the future holds for her. She was one of my favourite characters but the endless wandering around Westeros did get a little repetitive.

[Slychd]

I am also pretty worried about the reviews for ADWD. I am a little disappointed that he keeps adding new characters, I find it hard to care about any of them. I was a big fan of the show LOST, but when the end came I realized they were just making it up as the went along, and never had a ending planned. I think that ruined the entire show, I just hope this doesn't turn out the same.

I wouldn't place too much stock in the Amazon.com reader reviews. They are a knee-jerk reaction to a fast and furious read after waiting for 5 years. I'm not saying that the book isn't without issues, because there is some major pacing issues with Dany's story. I say that it is a pacing error, but that's all I can say for now, because I don't know the rest of her story. It's not really fair to judge a middle book of a series until you know the whole story, I feel that way anyway.

[Bronn is God]

DWD is FFC quality with arguably more boring characters (Dany, Jon, Bran). So, I definitely enjoyed reading AFFC much more than DWD (since I was reading them at the same time).

[Bronn is God]

So far this book feels like filler, which is a little disappointing because I am really looking forward to finding out what my favorite characters are up to.

In the grand scheme of things, everything feels like filler unless you are a fan of Dany, Jon or Bran.

GRRM could get away with so much more if he wrote them off and continued with the story of Westeros rather than the inevitable Ice vs Fire.

No, not a spoiler, its the tone you get from ASOS.

[Miriam Meekheart]

I was struggling a bit with A Feast for Crows as well, and then I found this thread and am reading it with a different viewpoint now. I appreciate those who said I should accept the slower pace of this book as a welcome respite from the breathless pace of A Clash of Kings and A Storm of Swords. I am so anxious to know what happens to several of the Westeros characters, that I was disregarding the unwelcome new characters at first but now I realize I'm doing a disservice to the arc of the story.

I want to try to respect the author's pacing of the story and just "enjoy the journey" so to speak.

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

In the grand scheme of things, everything feels like filler unless you are a fan of Dany, Jon or Bran.

GRRM could get away with so much more if he wrote them off and continued with the story of Westeros rather than the inevitable Ice vs Fire.

No, not a spoiler, its the tone you get from ASOS.

So if the author abandoned the theme of the series he would improve the series....hmm. Much like Shakespeare could have made "Hamlet" so much better if he simply had gotten rid of that prince of Denmark fellow. Makes perfect sense to me. <_<

[Bronn is God]

So if the author abandoned the theme of the series he would improve the series....hmm. Much like Shakespeare could have made "Hamlet" so much better if he simply had gotten rid of that prince of Denmark fellow. Makes perfect sense to me. <_<

Not nearly the same thing. ASoIaF scope is much greater than any Shakespearean work, not to mention the overriding theme of 4 out of five books has been the politicking in Westeros. Having these disconnected characters develop outside that just to plop them in as the main attraction so late into the series is bad.

And how are they the theme of the novels?

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

Not nearly the same thing. ASoIaF scope is much greater than any Shakespearean work, not to mention the overriding theme of 4 out of five books has been the politicking in Westeros. Having these disconnected characters develop outside that just to plop them in as the main attraction so late into the series is bad.

And how are they the theme of the novels?

The format of a story doesn't really matter as a theme is a theme, and the theme of these novels happens to be the battle for the fate of a world between representatives of ice and fire.Being that "A Song of Ice and Fire" is the name of the series I feel that is reasonable to assume that these will play the major role when all is said and done. You mention Jon and Dany in your posts and introduce the notion that they are outside of the main action while I would counter that they are closer to the true action than any other POV character I can think of at the moment.

I wouldn't say the politicking and minor squabbles for the throne of Westeros are the overriding theme of the books thus far, rather more like simple distractions from the main battle that is apparently going to decide the fate of something (given the common association with Frost's poem, I would assume that to be the entire world). Perhaps the battles for something minor as a transient kingdom is the distraction that explains why no one took note of all the signs pointing to the danger that they all actually faced.

That you might find the vagaries of politics in Westeros more entertaining than an epic mythical confrontation doesn't change what the overall theme of the series happens to be. You are arguing that Martin should jettison his chosen theme and instead focus on a theme you would prefer and I am simply asking why you are reading this story. :dunno: