[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Daenerys 3 - Spoilers for ADWD

[Amir]

There is always the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret as well, meaning if Jon is their child he has always been legitimate and his bastardy is just part of the lie Ned has been telling all along.

Also, with regards to the females in the line of succession, I believe they would be in the order you list, but they would come after all the males in the line first. Meaning the Targaryen girls wouldn't start until after Viserys, and the Baratheon girls until after Renly, going on the main laws of succession set in place by the original Dance of Dragons. If we are operating tge entire kingdom under Dornish law then you list is accurate with the addition of Rhaego.

i dont think that rheager could be married twice since we have no other character that does that in the series.

and i think it go king > king sons> king daughters>king brother >etc > basterds if none remain

[Jon Blackfyre]

i dont think that rheager could be married twice since we have no other character that does that in the series.

and i think it go king > king sons> king daughters>king brother >etc > basterds if none remain

Rhaegar could be married twice if he wanted to, he is the Heir to the Throne at the time, he can do what he wants. The Targaryens also have a precedent of polygamy from Aegon the Conqueror who married both his sisters. Also, the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay area's practice polygamy, so it isn't something that is unheard of in the series. King Cloes has wives he'd set aside for Dany remember.

As to the succession, like I said before, because of the Dance of Dragons between Aegon II and his sister, Rhaenyra I beleive, the Targaryen line passed to males first, then to females. When it passed to Rhaenyra it started a war that killed off the dragons, hence the succsession goesas follows:

King -> King's sons -> King's grandsons (an so on)-> King's brother's -> King's nephews -> all other male relatives -> King's daughters and so on.

But as I said, if we are going by Dornish law for the entire kingdon, the females go in line the same as males.

[Amir]

Rhaegar could be married twice if he wanted to, he is the Heir to the Throne at the time, he can do what he wants. The Targaryens also have a precedent of polygamy from Aegon the Conqueror who married both his sisters. Also, the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay area's practice polygamy, so it isn't something that is unheard of in the series. King Cloes has wives he'd set aside for Dany remember.

As to the succession, like I said before, because of the Dance of Dragons between Aegon II and his sister, Rhaenyra I beleive, the Targaryen line passed to males first, then to females. When it passed to Rhaenyra it started a war that killed off the dragons, hence the succsession goesas follows:

King -> King's sons -> King's grandsons (an so on)-> King's brother's -> King's nephews -> all other male relatives -> King's daughters and so on.

But as I said, if we are going by Dornish law for the entire kingdon, the females go in line the same as males.

thats probably right but since robb already sent the note to jon its safe to assume they didnt or else grrm probably wouldnt bother with.

its also in it for an irony yeah youve grown as a basterd all youre life to find out you got a diffrent parents but guess what ? youre still a basterd , a royal basterd but still a basterd .

[Jon Blackfyre]

thats probably right but since robb already sent the note to jon its safe to assume they didnt or else grrm probably wouldnt bother with.

its also in it for an irony yeah youve grown as a basterd all youre life to find out you got a diffrent parents but guess what ? youre still a basterd , a royal basterd but still a basterd .

Yeah, the only reason besides that I can see is Robb is making him a legit Stark, like Stannis wanted to, if that is what the letter from Robb is about.

If he is a legit Targaryen from R+L=J and they were married it would be rather ironic that he's lived his life as a bastard when he is really the King.

on top of that, he joined the NW, became Lord Commander there, turned down Winterfell, and then he may come to find out he was made Jon Stark by robb and is the King in the north, which I beleive he would turn down, and then comes to find out he was the REAL King the whole time... which I think he would say "It doesn't matter, I am a man of the night's Watch, and that is all I will ever be." I don't see him turning down Winterfell, possibly turning down Robb's decree just to say, "okay, I guess i'll be king now afterall" if all these things come to be true.

[Amir]

i doubt grrm will allow jon to be persuaded off the wall , a revolt or stannis/mel trying to kill him is more likely to cause jon to leave the wall.

[R_Thunder]

i doubt grrm will allow jon to be persuaded off the wall , a revolt or stannis/mel trying to kill him is more likely to cause jon to leave the wall.

I dont think Jon will willingly leave his post on the wall. But if the wall is broken, and the others are invading westeros, that changes things...

[Amir]

I dont think Jon will willingly leave his post on the wall. But if the wall is broken, and the others are invading westeros, that changes things...

that also falls in into the survivor catagory so i agree.

[House Stark for Life]

I agree that Jon would not leave the wall unless forced to do so. Even if he gets Robb's letter and accepts the Stark name, I think he would still stay at the wall (with a piece of mind).

My guess is that either Stannis turns on him forcing him to flee, or Mel does something stupid to break the spells in the wall allowing the others to assault it and breach it. (I am leaning towards Mel)

I do have a quick idea on Danny's betrayals........

I am guessing Varys is the perfumed one that she is warned about in the dream. Maybe he is the betrayer for love? Maybe out of love for Westeros? We all know how much he hates magic and anything to do with it. But then again he has been plotting to bring her to Westeros all along.(but that was before the dragons)

So it may be slightly crackpot but you never know with GRRM.

[Amir]

I agree that Jon would not leave the wall unless forced to do so. Even if he gets Robb's letter and accepts the Stark name, I think he would still stay at the wall (with a piece of mind).

My guess is that either Stannis turns on him forcing him to flee, or Mel does something stupid to break the spells in the wall allowing the others to assault it and breach it. (I am leaning towards Mel)

I do have a quick idea on Danny's betrayals........

I am guessing Varys is the perfumed one that she is warned about in the dream. Maybe he is the betrayer for love? Maybe out of love for Westeros? We all know how much he hates magic and anything to do with it. But then again he has been plotting to bring her to Westeros all along.(but that was before the dragons)

So it may be slightly crackpot but you never know with GRRM.

Quaithe tells Dany "The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare. After her will come the others . Crow and kraken, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Remember the undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

seneschal-(Historical Terms) a steward of the household of a medieval prince or nobleman who took charge of domestic arrangements, etc.

varys sounds good :Dyoung

guessing the other

pale mare- cat? since a mare is an adult female horse and rheago the unborn son was called the stallion who wiil mount the world its seems likely.

crow and kraken- euron and asha or victarion or just euron since he is both.

lion and griffin- jon connington has to be the griffin the lion is likely tyrion but i could also be the young brother of tywin since we know he went to this area to look for the family sword (crackpot ) and if we consider the fact that tyrion might not be a lion but a dragon...

sun's sun - quantun martell.

murmmers dragon - could be waters could be the dragon that mel is trying to summon could be tyrion or jon but waters seems the most likely.

[House Stark for Life]

The mummers Dragon at this point seems like it will be Waters....but then again you never know.

Pale mare is the hardest one..........what was the sigil for Bittersteel? Maybe it could be associated with the Golden Company?

I have a feeling one of the Targ lost swords will be found and brought to Danny......and later on the 2 halves of Ice as well.

Thus giving Danny 3 blades (one for each head of the dragon).

If Un-Cat is the pale mare then maybe she has Oathkeeper with her.......(that one is a big stretch)

But hey it's GRRM there a lot of crazy things going on here!

[Amir]

I have a feeling one of the Targ lost swords will be found and brought to Danny......and later on the 2 halves of Ice as well.

Thus giving Danny 3 blades (one for each head of the dragon).

If Un-Cat is the pale mare then maybe she has Oathkeeper with her.......(that one is a big stretch)

But hey it's GRRM there a lot of crazy things going on here!

from jamie(or was it brienne? been a while) vision it seems likely that he and brianne will go thru the tunnels (below the wall ?or the rock? ) with the blades so they probably wont be there for dany.

speaking about the tunnels.. dany is supposed to go below the shadow (probably ashee) to get to westeros so instead of using ships i think she would probably go thru the tunnels to westeros (we know its massive already and you can easily get lost there from jon chapters in asos).

im wondering if some house has a horse sigil or some undead female dorthaki will apear (shaman of some sort? ) but since we know nothing about that now we have no way of knowing .

it could be that Quaithe herself but it seems odd .

[GrandPoobah]

I agree that Jon would not leave the wall unless forced to do so. Even if he gets Robb's letter and accepts the Stark name, I think he would still stay at the wall (with a piece of mind).

My guess is that either Stannis turns on him forcing him to flee, or Mel does something stupid to break the spells in the wall allowing the others to assault it and breach it. (I am leaning towards Mel)

What if John and/or Stannis defeat the Others once and for good? Say one of them turns out to actually be Azhor Ahai? If the wildlings have been defeated and there's no more Others, what purpose does the Night's Watch actually serve?

[Arataniello]

from jamie(or was it brienne? been a while) vision it seems likely that he and brianne will go thru the tunnels (below the wall ?or the rock? ) with the blades so they probably wont be there for dany.

speaking about the tunnels.. dany is supposed to go below the shadow (probably ashee) to get to westeros so instead of using ships i think she would probably go thru the tunnels to westeros (we know its massive already and you can easily get lost there from jon chapters in asos).

im wondering if some house has a horse sigil or some undead female dorthaki will apear (shaman of some sort? ) but since we know nothing about that now we have no way of knowing .

it could be that Quaithe herself but it seems odd .

Jaime's dreams may in fact just be dreams. He has had at least a couple of them concerning Brienne, and they have always seemed to be more about his subconscioous trying to get him to do the honorable thing, rather than being prophetic in nature.

"Tunnels to Westeros"? Ummm, ok......

Previous speculation about the 'pale mare' in Quaithe's prophecy has indeed touched on it possibly referring to a female Dothraki coming to see Dany from Vaes Dothrak, and demanding she return there, as per Dothraki custom dictates for an ex-khaleesi.

[Pate Peet]

Depending on the time line of AFFC and ADWD, the Crow could be Aemon.

1) He want to head towards Dany.

2) He was having something like "dragon dreams," AKA fever dreams.

3) With magic coming back into the world, his "Targy-ness" would be picked up by Quaithe.

Not all of them will necessarily arrive to Dany, just that they are headed that way.

Too many semantics?

[Jon Blackfyre]

What if John and/or Stannis defeat the Others once and for good? Say one of them turns out to actually be Azhor Ahai? If the wildlings have been defeated and there's no more Others, what purpose does the Night's Watch actually serve?

I doubt the Others can be completely defeated. They will just go back into hibernation for thousands of years. That is the nature of enemies that bring about the rebirths of heros.

If they came before and were defeated why do so many believe they will be completely defeated this time around? The Watch still exists after thousands of years because they could come back, even after they had been defeated. Even Mel says they are eternally at war, Rhollor and the Great Other.

[LadyMary]

Dany can't come to herself (as the prophecy implies), so the pale mare must be someone else that arrives in Meeren. I think it's Aurane Waters as the Velaryon simbol is a silver seahorse.

If the prophesy relates not to the place where she currently is (Mereen), but the place Dany's going to, Westeros - and specifically to fight the "War for Dawn" (as Maester Aemon called it), then it could most definitely be her. The same prophet spoke of passing through the Shadow (coming darkness; Long Night of Winter?) before touching the light (Spring; defeating darkness?); going East (Essos) before going West (Westeros); going South (Dragonstone?) before going North (The Wall?). I think it's basically laying out her journey so far, past, present and into the future.

The glass candles refer to magic and fire, or figuratively relate to the hatching and existence of dragons which coincide with the coming Winter and the reemergence of the White Walkers behind the Wall.

The others have already or will come in the future.

"The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare. After her will come the others. Crow and kraken, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Remember the undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Although there are various factions headed towards Dany, maybe the "Merenese knot is kind of a red herring and this is a sequential prophesy, rather than a convergence of these others. These others could arrive at different points in her journey. I speculate the Crow could be a Nights Watchman or the Nights Watch in general, the Kraken is Greyjoy, Lion and Griffin = Lannister (Tyrion?) and Connington (one or both of the Griffs), the Sun's son (Quentyn) and the mummer's dragon; someone who is passing himself off as a Targ (a fake Aegon?), a bastard Targ (Golden Company?) or a Targ lookalike (Aurane) and who is being controlled by someone else (the mummer, whoever that is).

The Seneschal's court is in the Citadel of Oldtown. My guess is Marwyn is somehow related to the prophesy about the "perfumed seneschal", or perhaps someone else associated with the Citadel (maybe another Maester sent to kill Dany or the dragons out of fear or distrust of magic).

[Sand Viper]

I think the Pale Mare is Dany. She was the wife of Khal Drogo - a 'horse lord', and she has pale skin. Her role is very much as a mare, or mother - First she was due to give birth to the Stallion who would mount the world; then she was a mother to her three dragons.

The list may refer to those who would be Dany's suitors - Euron, Victorion, and Quentyn are already confirmed Dany suitors.

If not suitors, then they are all people on their way to meet Dany - Aurane Waters or a Blackfyre are both candidates for the mummer dragon.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I think the Pale Mare is Dany. She was the wife of Khal Drogo - a 'horse lord', and she has pale skin. Her role is very much as a mare, or mother - First she was due to give birth to the Stallion who would mount the world; then she was a mother to her three dragons.

Then what does "soon comes" mean in the prophecy?

[Sand Viper]

Then what does "soon comes" mean in the prophecy?

All we ahve to go on is a description of a dream of Dany, in which Quaith appears and says something. We don't know for sure if Quaithe is addressing Dany, or if Dany is observing her speaking to somebody else. Even if Quaithe is speaking to Dany, she could well be speaking about her in the third person rather than the second - it's a dream and Quaithe is not speaking her first language.

The Pale Mare doesn't fit anybody else

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

All we ahve to go on is a description of a dream of Dany, in which Quaith appears and says something. We don't know for sure if Quaithe is addressing Dany, or if Dany is observing her speaking to somebody else.

I think we can be pretty sure. Read the paragraphs before and after the prophecy again:

"Dany demands to know how she passed the guards. Quaithe tells her that she came another way and that if Dany calls out, her guards will swear to her that Quaithe is not present." ...then the prophecy, and then... "Dany thinks this seneschal is Reznak. She demands that Quaithe cease speaking in riddles. Quaithe tells her that she wants to show her the way, after which Dany repeats the path 'go north to go south, etc.' Quaithe bids that Dany remember who she is. Dany thinks about being the blood of the dragon, the three mounts, the three betrayals. She is interrupted by Missandei. Quaithe is gone."

Quaithe doesn't just show up and deliver a monologue. It's a conversation between Dany and Quaithe, in which Quaithe address Dany specifically on several occasions. And there's no indication that the prophecy is separate from the rest of the conversation, or that Quaithe is addressing that specific quote to anybody else (in fact, Quaithe claims that other people would be unable to see her). So I think we can say that Quaithe is addressing this prophecy to Dany.

(Also, it's not a dream--the chapter summary says clearly that Dany is awake--and Quaithe has addressed Dany in the second person before so I'm not sure why she would abruptly change her speech patterns now.)

And given that Quaithe is plainly talking to Dany, then I'm still confused about your interpretation of the prophecy. Given your belief that the "pale mare" can only be Dany, then what does "soon comes" mean? In what sense is Dany about to come to herself?