A Thread for Small Questions XI

[rmholt]

Not sure if it's every explicitly stated, but I believe that Robert thinks she was "raped to death", as it were.

Ned probably told him some vague story about finding her in a bloody bed, which Robert probably thought was due to above. Probably didn't press Ned about his sister's death.

She had a fever and was giving birth. Women died giving birth a LOT before medicine caught up. I cant accept Rhaegar raping her. Doesnt seem likely for either character or for events.

[rmholt]

Oh jeez I have the wrong aunt? Perhaps I need to go all the way back to the GoT to find this - if it is there.

I havent read the prequels either derp

[rmholt]

I'm guessing it's more likely the latter, since magical phenomena were happening before the eggs hatched. But I don't think we have a definitive answer.

I think the dragons came first since ppl say the magic went away when the last dragon died.

[rmholt]

Off the top of my head:

- A blue-eyed king with no shadow (Stannis).

- A mummer's dragon (Aegon).

- A blue rose growing on a chunk of ice (often assumed to be Jon via R+L=J)

- A white lion (Tyrion or maybe Jaime? or maybe noone in particular).

- A smiling dead man on a ship.

- The Red Wedding.

- Aerys ckackling about destroying King's Landing.

- Rhaegar talking to his wife Elia how the dragon has three heads or something.

- Viserys dying.

- her unborn son Rhaego as the conquering and pillaging Khal.

- the crones of Dosh Khaleen kneeling before her.

Aaaand, that's what I remember without digging through the book.

Blue eyed king with no shadow is an Other, I believe

[rmholt]

When forging Needle, did Mikken know who it was for? I assumed Jon did not tell him directly that the sword was for Arya, but surely Mikken had his own thoughts - he knew Arya and Jon and everyboy else there - and he decided not to ask so he would not have to go to Eddard with it. But somebody I talked to about the series recently seems to think otherwise, so I just thought to ask what do you all think.

Jon is not in the habit of answering questions of servants <G>

[rmholt]

Why does Sansa keep referring to being kissed by the Hound?

She thought he was going to kiss her but he didnt. She did put her hand on his cheek and made him cry. She might have mistaken him for Dontos or Joffrey. What disgusting man DIDNT try to kiss her?

[rmholt]

It's in GOT, just before Tyrion returns to Winterfell with Yoren. The key point is that when all hope seems lost, the hero finds the Children of the Forest, who aid him in defeating the White Walkers.

My question - what did Joffery do to Tommen.? In AFFC, Tommen tells Jaime that he used to do something when Joffery... and then he trails off. Is there any other evidence about this? Does anyone else have the exact quote?

One thing he did was kill Tommen's pet fawn and make a leather jerkin out of its hide. We heard this when he went to Rosby. Likely more tho that would be enough.

[rmholt]

It's harder to kill both of them if they're apart. Also, Bran, Hodor, Meera and Jojen would already be hampered in how quickly they could travel without having a 4 year old tagging along.

They may not like being apart, but it's far safer.

Also they have different quests

[Buckwheat]

Jon is not in the habit of answering questions of servants <G>

I don't think Mikken asked Jon anything. I think Mikken only thought about it and decided that he did not want to know.

[Bad Dog]

She had a fever and was giving birth. Women died giving birth a LOT before medicine caught up. I cant accept Rhaegar raping her. Doesnt seem likely for either character or for events.

That's just a fan theory!! The truth is that as of yet we have no idea how exactly she died, we can only guess.

And neither is there any indication that Rhaegar didn't rape her (though her dying of it only then, when Rhaegar is a long way away and also has been dead for a while does seem a bit unlikely - still, this doesn't prove he never raped her).

[corbon]

That's just a fan theory!! The truth is that as of yet we have no idea how exactly she died, we can only guess.

While this is true, some guesses are better than others.

And neither is there any indication that Rhaegar didn't rape her (though her dying of it only then, when Rhaegar is a long way away and also has been dead for a while does seem a bit unlikely - still, this doesn't prove he never raped her).

Actually, there are several indications - her clutching the roses for example.

What there aren't are any reasonable indications that he did rape her. All we have are Robert's claims, and Robert has no actual data on which to base his conclusions - and is demonstrably unbalanced with respect to Targaryens.

In short, the only support for rape are the equivalent of the claims of an drunken loser ex-boyfriend, who has had no contact with either party, claiming his ex-girlfriend was raped by her current boyfriend.

I'd be surprised if modern police even started an investigation on such flimsy and obviously manufactured claims.

Except that the ex-boyfriend is the king, so its the 'official' story.

Abduction case is a bit stronger, but not much. But there simply is no case for rape.

[Bad Dog]

Calling Rhaegar her "boyfriend" seems pretty inaccurate to me already. Until now, it seems Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar. We don't know if her feelings ever changed! So, captor yes, boyfriend is a matter of speculation (just as calling Robert her ex is - and he wasn't a "drunken loser" at this point).

And modern police would hand the girl over to modern forensic medicine to check, but that's beside the point.

Why should clutch roses prove she wasn't raped? I'd rather expect someone to clutch something dear to him when he's traumatized.

As of yet, we know pretty much NOTHING. Yes, the Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents theory seems plausible, but IT IS NOT CONFIRMED YET. No matter how plausible, with what we know now this is speculation, not fact.

[1234567]

Calling Rhaegar her "boyfriend" seems pretty inaccurate to me already. Until now, it seems Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar. We don't know if her feelings ever changed! So, captor yes, boyfriend is a matter of speculation (just as calling Robert her ex is - and he wasn't a "drunken loser" at this point).

And modern police would hand the girl over to modern forensic medicine to check, but that's beside the point.

Why should clutch roses prove she wasn't raped? I'd rather expect someone to clutch something dear to him when he's traumatized.

As of yet, we know pretty much NOTHING. Yes, the Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents theory seems plausible, but IT IS NOT CONFIRMED YET. No matter how plausible, with what we know now this is speculation, not fact.

Lyanna was with Rheagar for around a year and the King's Guard were protecting her which would seem to indicate that a pregnancy was possible. What is not clear is if the relationship was consensual or not.

Ned does not seem to think to badly of Rheagar, which is in his favour, but until we get the full story from GRRM, I guess it's all speculation.

[Bad Dog]

:agree:

It's possible. A lot of things are possible, and a lot of burning questions are unanswered. Some theories are quite plausible. But I must say I find it immensely annoying when people present theories, however plausible, as fact.

[corbon]

Calling Rhaegar her "boyfriend" seems pretty inaccurate to me already. Until now, it seems Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar. We don't know if her feelings ever changed! So, captor yes, boyfriend is a matter of speculation (just as calling Robert her ex is - and he wasn't a "drunken loser" at this point).

Way to avoid the point!

Ir's not that Rhaegar was her boyfriend, its that there is no evidence at all behind Robert's claim, just an ex-boyfriend whinging about the man he lost out to.

Robert needs some evidence to be taken seriously as a source - he was nowhere around when whatever happened went down and he never saw Lyanna again, so his basis for the claim of rape is... ...he won't believe Lyanna didn't love him, Robert, so the only way, in his mind, that Rhaegar could have had her would be rape.

And modern police would hand the girl over to modern forensic medicine to check, but that's beside the point.

No, the point was modern police wouldn't even bother with that much. There is no evidence, the victim has not complained (nor has her family, as far as we know), just one jilted ex who has not even the suggestion of evidence to pass to the police, whinging. Robert would be lucky not to be charged with wasting police time.

Why should clutch roses prove she wasn't raped? I'd rather expect someone to clutch something dear to him when he's traumatized.

Exactly.

Check out what Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal. And reread the description of what she clutched.

And any trauma she is suffering from at that time is almost certainly not trauma directly inflicted by Rhaegar - he's been gone for several months already. Unlikely she would have lingered on for several months from anything he did.

But the Bloody Bed is referenced at least twice elsewhere as being from childbirth.

As of yet, we know pretty much NOTHING. Yes, the Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents theory seems plausible, but IT IS NOT CONFIRMED YET. No matter how plausible, with what we know now this is speculation, not fact.

Sure, but some speculation is stronger than other speculation because the evidence behind it has a lot greater veracity. And when you present one side of a multi-option scenario as a default truth, when the evidence for that option is weaker than other options, you invite counter-comment.

And yes, many people are at fault. When a scenario is considered 95%+ probably, most people lazily start typing it as if fact, even though they know it is not. Get over it.

Most theories are unproven, which means 99.9% of what is discussed on this board is assumed to be unproven for a start. People just don't jump through all the hoops of making that explicitly clear when they communicate.

Most of the 'proofs' are actually 'anti-proofs', where somewhat says X can't be true because of Y, and others say, hey, there is option Z in place of Y so X might still be true. We 'can't' say X is categorically ruled out.

It's possible. A lot of things are possible, and a lot of burning questions are unanswered. Some theories are quite plausible. But I must say I find it immensely annoying when people present theories, however plausible, as fact.

You mean like when people present implausible theories as though they were the default fact?

And neither is there any indication that Rhaegar didn't rape her ... still, this doesn't prove he never raped her).

That comes across like you are saying Rhaegar raped her is the 'default truth' - which it isn't, its just a theory, and a very weak one at that.

[Bad Dog]

You completely missed what I was saying, didn't you?

Fine, I'll spell it out again: There is no solid fact about what happened, just conflicting theories, some are more likely, some are less likely. There have been neither a reliable source (Robert obviously isn't), nor has a reliable person let us share his knowledge (I name Ned here, for example). As of yet, we don't know what happened.

The only thing that most likely is true is that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, because this is what Daenerys says too, and she got it from Viserys, who obviously is fanatically pro-Rhaegar. From there on, we're in the dark.

There are facts and indications of ways to read what happened. Maybe Rhaegar raped her, maybe not (if you read carefully, I didn't say he did, I just said we don't know he didn't.) Yes, it's fairly plausible Lyanna gave birth to a child, but the "bloody bed" you cite can be the result of a wound too. Personally, I, like many others, suspect she gave birth to a child before she died, but this is beside the point here. The point is, right now we don't know.

I simply protested to presenting something as fact that has merely been hinted at until now.

[Galen M]

shouldn't all this RLJ debate be in the designated thread, as this is not a small question by any means

[Bad Dog]

Yep, you're right. I protested to someone presenting it as a fact Lyanna had a child before she died, and it got blown way out of proportion. No more Rhaegar and Lyanna in here, sorry mods. :)

[QueenNymeria]

@rmholt- headtrip honey was responding to my question about the 'official' cause of Lyanna's death.

My question presumed R+L=J to be true, as I stated. It was not meant to incite a debate over the truthfulness of said equation, but rather, to explore the possible lies that Ned may have told as a cover-up. I am interested in what the people of the realm think happened to her because I am pretty sure that the 'official story' is not that Lyanna died of childbirth complications. I am new here and was not sure that the thought was worthy of its own thread. :) Cheers!

[1234567]

How long were Tyrion and Sansa married for before Joffery's Wedding? Tyrion seemed to be out of it in his sickbed for weeks. Was it as long a couple of months, or just a few weeks?