R + L = J Part XXIV

[eLAN]

If Jon were R's son, he would also be half-dragon. He should be fire-resistant then :)

[Elenya Westerling]

If Jon were R's son, he would also be half-dragon. He should be fire-resistant then :)

Not all dragons are fire-resistant, though. Viserys was effectivley burned to death, and Martin himself has stated that "TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold." So even if Jon did get nice and crispy killing the wight, it doesn't mean that he might not be a Targ.

[Desch]

If Jon were R's son, he would also be half-dragon. He should be fire-resistant then :)

Also there are multiple quotes of Targaryen that burned to death one way or the other...it is not a general trait.

[Medieval Housefly]

Someone may have mentioned this, but if R + L = J then Ned Stark is a dick. Letting him join the night watch while his own children (whom would have been second in line I believe) took Winterfell. Jon should have at least known all the fact before joining the NW, but instead Ned let him go an make a lifelong vow committing him to the NW.

I'm not saying he would have ever really would have been Lord of Winterfell seeing as how Robert would have wanted him dead, but he should have had the knowledge.

[Dragonfish]

Someone may have mentioned this, but if R + L = J then Ned Stark is a dick. Letting him join the night watch while his own children (whom would have been second in line I believe) took Winterfell. Jon should have at least known all the fact before joining the NW, but instead Ned let him go an make a lifelong vow committing him to the NW.

I'm not saying he would have ever really would have been Lord of Winterfell seeing as how Robert would have wanted him dead, but he should have had the knowledge.

Lord of Winterfell? Jon has no right to Winterfell whether he's Ned's bastard or Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

[Medieval Housefly]

Lord of Winterfell? Jon has no right to Winterfell whether he's Ned's bastard or Rhaegar and Lyanna's son.

Wasn't Lyanna older than Ned? Would that make her children next in line, or does it only follow the paternal children? If Brandon had left children they would have inherited Winterfell had they been legitimate, or made legitimate. Jon could have inherited Winterfell had Ned legitimized him, or had the king do it.

[Dragonfish]

Wasn't Lyanna older than Ned?

No, Ned was older.

Would that make her children next in line, or does it only follow the paternal children?

I think it would go through all the male children first. For instance, Cersei is older than both Jaime and Tyrion, but the former was set to inherit Casterly Rock, and the latter would have inherited it if his father hadn't been such a huge jerk.

If Brandon had left children they would have inherited Winterfell had they been legitimate, or made legitimate. Jon could have inherited Winterfell had Ned legitimized him, or had the king do it.

Well, we're assuming in this scenario that Robert doesn't know about Jon's true heritage, yes?

Assuming the world believes that Jon is Ned's legitimized son, Jon would still be after Robb in the inheritance because he is younger, according to Ned. And even if he wasn't younger, it's not entirely clear if older legitimized bastards ought to come before trueborn children (based off of what Martin said in a SSM).

So, to summarize, there are a lot of obstacles between Jon and Winterfell as of the beginning of AGoT.

[ghost the direwolf]

Whorehouse => mens lusts => bastards => Jon => Rhaegar (Jon's father), IIRC the context. Those seem to be the logical associations.

If you are relatively new to the series (in depth at least) and just starting to get your head around a lot of the little mysteries, you might find some time spent at the citadel worth your while.

You can start here on a variety of things, and here in particular for R+L=J (or rather, 'Who are Jon's parents?')

Thank you very much for those infos.

[zmflavius]

Wasn't Lyanna older than Ned? Would that make her children next in line, or does it only follow the paternal children? If Brandon had left children they would have inherited Winterfell had they been legitimate, or made legitimate. Jon could have inherited Winterfell had Ned legitimized him, or had the king do it.

In any case, younger brothers would still be ahead of older sisters.

[The Greatmatt]

Someone may have mentioned this, but if R + L = J then Ned Stark is a dick. Letting him join the night watch while his own children (whom would have been second in line I believe) took Winterfell. Jon should have at least known all the fact before joining the NW, but instead Ned let him go an make a lifelong vow committing him to the NW.

Yeah, this is part of a bigger issue with Cat treating Jon like crap. It can be explained away if Lyanna said "Promise me to never tell anyone and raise him as your own son" given how rigid Ned was about honor (got his family destroyed and thousands killed needlessly because of it), but it's pretty dang stupid of Ned. I'm quite sure Lyanna never meant "Promise me that even if telling my son and your wife the truth would give him a happier life with far less danger to his being you make sure you never tell anyone."

[Andystoteles]

I do hope there will be a definitive answer somwhere. But... Even if R + L = J is true, then what? Jon will be Jon of the Night´s Watch even if he´s a Stark/Targaryen. It´s kind of a closed door however it turns out

[ALoudmouth]

I do hope there will be a definitive answer somwhere. But... Even if R + L = J is true, then what? Jon will be Jon of the Night´s Watch even if he´s a Stark/Targaryen. It´s kind of a closed door however it turns out

That is true as long as there is a Night's Watch. I personally think that Wall is coming down before the end of the series, and once it does, the NW will probably get absorbed into Winterfell or something. I think the NW will be dissolved and Jon will be free to pursue whatever - And even though I believe R+L=J, I don't believe GRRM would have him become King/Lord of anywhere; its just to cliche.

[The Greatmatt]

I do hope there will be a definitive answer somwhere. But... Even if R + L = J is true, then what? Jon will be Jon of the Night´s Watch even if he´s a Stark/Targaryen. It´s kind of a closed door however it turns out

Actually, I think it would be cool if nothing comes of R+L=J romantically. Not everything has to end up in a 'ship. I know people see this theory as some kind of fantasy ("you're not a bastard, you're a prince"), but from the other side of things R & L having a child is just kind of the expected course of events.

With that said, if we found the theory to be true, and literally nothing came of it, that would pretty be underwhelming.

[Mattyp]

I don't by it. If Lyanna was Jon's mother, I see no reason why Ned couldn't have told Catelyn. Lord knows Ned loved her, and trusted her fully. It's clear that Catelyn hates Jon believing him to be Ned's bastard, so why not just tell her if he wasn't his?

Obviously Lyanna probably would've requested he kept it all hush hush but surely Ned could trust Catelyn?

[eyeheartsansa]

That's the thing. If John has a father other than Ned, Ned is doing all kinds of unnecessary damage to his marriage to cover it up. If it has to be 100% classified information, why not make up some other explanation?

But it's clear from his conversation with Robert that Ned did commit some kind of infidelity at some point.

on those two points alone I am 90% sure that John is Ned's.

But it can't be that clear cut, otherwise there wouldn't be such vast amounts of shipping/theorizing about it.

[uncle fester]

I don't by it. If Lyanna was Jon's mother, I see no reason why Ned couldn't have told Catelyn. Lord knows Ned loved her, and trusted her fully. It's clear that Catelyn hates Jon believing him to be Ned's bastard, so why not just tell her if he wasn't his?

Obviously Lyanna probably would've requested he kept it all hush hush but surely Ned could trust Catelyn?

I don't think so with a matter like this. Having Cat genuinely hostile to Jon was a nice cover and deflected against anybody else inquiring as to his parentage.

After the war, Ned & Cat were basically only getting to know each other as she had been promised to marry Brandon instead until she married Ned, a total stranger, just before he went off to war. He couldn't risk telling her.

[Reposado]

Well two reasons. If anyone finds out Jon's parentage, it means his death and possibly Ned's as well. He doesn't want to make Cat complicit in this crime against the throne.

And if he did have an affair, as suspected, then he wasn't lying when he told Cat he was untrue. He just didn't fill her in on the details, so as not to blow Jon's cover.

And of course, he promised Lyanna to raise him in secret, likely to tell noone. That promise required him to be live a lie, even to his lady wife, which is what he always felt bad about.

[The Missing Link]

To keep nosy folks out of his families business. The easiest way to keep a secret is to keep it to yourself.

[Tom of Sevenstreams]

If the theory that Jon is part Targaryan is true, it would be exceptionally dangerous if that information was ever released in any way. Jon would likely be killed, Ned also, and probably Cat. Ned knew Robert Baratheon better then anyone and he knew what would happen to Jon if that information was ever revealed, and Cat was as an earlier poster said... almost unknown to him at the time.

At the same time, it is better if Jon is raised humble and as a Stark then as some Targaryan who may or may not be murdered just because of who his Dad was. The evil eye from Cat once in awhile is far superior to the sword of damacles hanging over your head and feeling you are owed something. Especially when the Evil Eye comes with a father like Ned, and a gaggle of sisters and brothers.

[Jamie Lannister]

Well, Ned prides himself on his honour. It's only natural that he'd shut out the entire world if he was to keep a secret like that.