R + L = J Part XXIV

[Svetlana]

I agree with what have been said, when he took Jon as his son, he barely knew Catelyn. He couldn't tell her then, and probably didn't want later because he thought that would be better to keep her ignorant as long as Jon was still living with them. It's also possible that Lyanna asked him to never tell anyone the truth.

[Dragonfish]

I don't by it. If Lyanna was Jon's mother, I see no reason why Ned couldn't have told Catelyn. Lord knows Ned loved her, and trusted her fully. It's clear that Catelyn hates Jon believing him to be Ned's bastard, so why not just tell her if he wasn't his?

Obviously Lyanna probably would've requested he kept it all hush hush but surely Ned could trust Catelyn?

Ned explicitly states in AGoT:

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

Do you think Jon's true parentage, if he is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would not be a secret to dangerous to share even with those you love and trust?

[The Greatmatt]

After the war, Ned & Cat were basically only getting to know each other as she had been promised to marry Brandon instead until she married Ned, a total stranger, just before he went off to war. He couldn't risk telling her.

And this is why Ned's actions make total sense from a narrative perspective, but when the time came where she was essentially saying "When you go to KL, I will not let Jon stay here" and thus forcing the boy to be tossed in with the worst criminals in the 7 Kingdoms, I would say this was quite foolish on Ned's part.

Also interesting: It makes sense to say he didn't tell Cat because he didn't trust her, HOWEVER, as we've seen in the series it's not that out of the ordinary for wives to kill bastard children they see as threats. If Cat truly was untrustworthy, letting her think Jon was a bastard is maybe the most dangerous thing he could have done, and if Cat was trustworthy, then it's probably better for all involved if she knows the truth.

[Dragonfish]

And this is why Ned's actions make total sense from a narrative perspective, but when the time came where she was essentially saying "When you go to KL, I will not let Jon stay here" and thus forcing the boy to be tossed in with the worst criminals in the 7 Kingdoms, I would say this was quite foolish on Ned's part.

Why was this foolish? As a bastard of the North, the Night's Watch is probably the best Jon can hope for. That's partly why he's attracted to the idea in the first place And the Starks consider it an honor to join the Watch, even if it is full of criminals these days.

Also interesting: It makes sense to say he didn't tell Cat because he didn't trust her, HOWEVER, as we've seen in the series it's not that out of the ordinary for wives to kill bastard children they see as threats. If Cat truly was untrustworthy, letting her think Jon was a bastard is maybe the most dangerous thing he could have done, and if Cat was trustworthy, then it's probably better for all involved if she knows the truth.

Ned doesn't want Catelyn to be complicit in his own treason. And he doesn't want to risk the secret getting out, which is exactly what he'd be doing if he let even one more person know the truth.

[The Greatmatt]

Why was this foolish? As a bastard of the North, the Night's Watch is probably the best Jon can hope for. That's partly why he's attracted to the idea in the first place And the Starks consider it an honor to join the Watch, even if it is full of criminals these days.

It's foolish because we know that Ned thought Jon was too young for the Wall. Sending a kid to a very dangerous place you don't think he's ready for is not a great way to keep him safe, particularly when there's an alternative that in all probability is much safer and will cause Cat to be happier and kinder to Jon.

Now of course, it seems pretty clear Jon was more ready for the Wall than most new recruits, but the argument that Ned did not actually act foolishly because he was so mistaken that he inadvertently made a reasonable choice seems silly to me.

Ned doesn't want Catelyn to be complicit in his own treason. And he doesn't want to risk the secret getting out, which is exactly what he'd be doing if he let even one more person know the truth.

Here I suppose it comes down to a set of perceived risks and priorities.

If Ned feels that let the secret out to Cat endangers his whole family and he's willing to endanger Jon to prevent that from happening, that's not foolish, just cold-hearted. Problem I have with that is that I don't think Ned's capable of being so logically cutthroat.

Also just personally: Were I Ned, and if I knew how Cat treated Jon, you had better believe I wouldn't be willing to let Jon possibly die simply to shelter the woman who had been so evil to him from responsibility.

[Dragonfish]

It's foolish because we know that Ned thought Jon was too young for the Wall. Sending a kid to a very dangerous place you don't think he's ready for is not a great way to keep him safe, particularly when there's an alternative that in all probability is much safer and will cause Cat to be happier and kinder to Jon.

What other option did he have? Jon was probably going to end up in the Night's Watch anyway, once he got older. It just turned out that this timetable had to be moved up after Ned accepted the Hand of the King job (ew, I almost said "Hand job").

Now, you seem to be saying that he could have told Cat the truth about Jon, and then she would have allowed him to stay in Winterfell. But this brings up several issues, a couple of which I've already mentioned: 1) in telling Cat the truth, he'd be making her complicit in his own treason; 2) in allowing even one more person to know the truth, he risks letting the secret get out; 3) it's not entirely clear that Cat would even be happy with the truth. Could you imagine Ned telling her, "Good news! Jon isn't actually my bastard! He's actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, and if the king finds out we'll probably be executed for treason!" Do you really think that would make her rest more easily at night, knowing that her husband is harboring a secret Targ?

[The Greatmatt]

What other option did he have? Jon was probably going to end up in the Night's Watch anyway, once he got older. It just turned out that this timetable had to be moved up after Ned accepted the Hand of the King job (ew, I almost said "Hand job").

Now, you seem to be saying that he could have told Cat the truth about Jon, and then she would have allowed him to stay in Winterfell. But this brings up several issues, a couple of which I've already mentioned: 1) in telling Cat the truth, he'd be making her complicit in his own treason; 2) in allowing even one more person to know the truth, he risks letting the secret get out; 3) it's not entirely clear that Cat would even be happy with the truth. Could you imagine Ned telling her, "Good news! Jon isn't actually my bastard! He's actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, and if the king finds out we'll probably be executed for treason!" Do you really think that would make her rest more easily at night, knowing that her husband is harboring a secret Targ?

Some of your points go toward the trait I brought up before:

If Ned made the decisions he did because he's cold and logical, then he wasn't being foolish.

If Ned made the decisions he did because he's sticking to a vague promise he made a long time ago, he probably was being foolish.

Re: Would Cat really be happier with the truth given the dangers? Ah, that is a decent question particularly given the plausible circumstances. Ned saying "btw R+L=J kthxbai" probably doesn't make her net happier than sending Jon to the Wall given all the turmoil. Good point.

Generally, though, given how amazingly bitter she is about Jon even after a decade and a half of marriage to a husband 10X better than any other husband we've seen in Westeros, I think it's safe to say that her learning the truth would have been a solid dose of happy for her. And frankly more importantly to me: Her not treating Jon like a rodent makes Jon happier, and since he's never treated anyone as bad as Cat treated him, I'm value his happiness more.

[Dragonfish]

If Ned made the decisions he did because he's cold and logical, then he wasn't being foolish.

If Ned made the decisions he did because he's sticking to a vague promise he made a long time ago, he probably was being foolish.

Well, in one of my posts above I quoted one part of AGoT where Ned says that some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. I think that's a pretty good indication that he doesn't want to tell Cat the truth because it would be too dangerous. And by dangerous, I mean that knowing the secret would put Cat in danger, as well as increase the risk that the secret would get out. Sounds like he's being cold and logical to me.

Generally, though, given how amazingly bitter she is about Jon even after a decade and a half of marriage to a husband 10X better than any other husband we've seen in Westeros, I think it's safe to say that her learning the truth would have been a solid dose of happy for her. And frankly more importantly to me: Her not treating Jon like a rodent makes Jon happier, and since he's never treated anyone as bad as Cat treated him, I'm value his happiness more.

I think you're exaggerating how badly Catelyn treated Jon. Here's how the author himself describes it:

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

my thoughts on Ned's letting Jon joining NW:

Firtsly, when he promised to Lyanna he propably promissed to let noone know about Jon's parentage. As about keep him safe, in westeros 14 years old is considered of an age so Ned was out of the "keep him safe" promise.

but I think although Ned actually knows about Jon's parentage, after 14 years is easier and more natural to him to think of Jon as his own bastard. he did grew him up as his real son in the very least.

as about sending him to NW, we really don't know what the 1st Ranger and The Lord of Winterfell though of the NW... they did wanted to improve it. and if there was even a "notice" that sth unnatural was happening beyond the wall, ned could "feel" that a son of Ice and Fire will be needed in the Wall.

maybe that seems cruel for Jon, but yet again a warden of the north has to make cruel desicions and even him getting to KL was "cruel" not even to think what came out as a result

[Karen Freeman-Smith]

Cat never liked Jon. I think if she had, Ned might have shared his secret.

But after a while, you can't. Because then instead of being happy that Ned doesn't have a bastard, she is mad that he lied to her all these years. And there is still another woman in the picture. She could have developed a jealousy of the dead sister, just like Cersi has. It probably would have made Jon's situation worse, not better if Cat had found out the truth.

[The Greatmatt]

Well, in one of my posts above I quoted one part of AGoT where Ned says that some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. I think that's a pretty good indication that he doesn't want to tell Cat the truth because it would be too dangerous. And by dangerous, I mean that knowing the secret would put Cat in danger, as well as increase the risk that the secret would get out. Sounds like he's being cold and logical to me.

Cold and logical means considering the person getting hurt by his chosen action and doing it anyway. That would have been making clear he was considering the pain Jon was going through and the danger he was about to go through, and then doing it anyway based on the good of the rest of the family who had already had so much more privilege than he'd had.

He didn't do that, and we already know that despite being dealt a royal flush in King's Landing, he list because he was unwilling to hurt his enemy's children in the name justice, and unable think through how much danger he was putting his own family in by showing mercy to his enemy.

I think we know him very well. Good man, strong fighter, excellent general, political moron.

I think you're exaggerating how badly Catelyn treated Jon. Here's how the author himself describes it:

Well, in comparison to what we've seen in the rest of Westeros, she certainly doesn't look that bad. In real life, if any step-mother treated a child this way, we'd consider her very much abusive. I understand that it's fair to look at Cat through the lens of the society she is in, but that really doesn't do much to change what Jon felt from her.

[Dragonfish]

Cold and logical means considering the person getting hurt by his chosen action and doing it anyway. That would have been making clear he was considering the pain Jon was going through and the danger he was about to go through, and then doing it anyway based on the good of the rest of the family who had already had so much more privilege than he'd had.

He didn't do that...

Here's the exact passage from the book where the subject of Jon joining the Night's Watch is brought up:

..."Jon must go," [Catelyn] said now.

"He and Robb are close," Ned said. "I had hoped..."

"He cannot stay here," Catelyn said, cutting him off. "He is your son, not mine. I will not have him." It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. "You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard's name...you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned."

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself."

"And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He--"

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. "Another solution presents itself," he said, his voice quiet. "Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black."

Ned looked shocked. "He asked to join the Night's Watch?"

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Maester Luwin said, "There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord."

"And even a bastard may rise high in the Night's Watch," Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. "Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen..."

"A hard sacrifice," Maester Luwin agreed. "Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady's."

Catelyn though of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then.

Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back. "Very well," he said to Maester Luwin. "I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben."

After reading this passage, I don't see how you can possibly argue that Ned was not trying to find the best solution, or that he wasn't considering the hardships that Jon would have to go through. He's clearly reluctant to let Jon take the black, in part because he's so young. But what choice does he have? His wife is insistent that the boy can't stay, and he can't be taken to court either. And furthermore, Jon wants to join the Watch. Given these constraints, the choice seems obvious. Why on earth would you consider Ned's choice to be foolish?

I think we know him very well. Good man, strong fighter, excellent general, political moron.

Well, he's only a competent fighter, but the rest is pretty much true.

[The Greatmatt]

After reading this passage, I don't see how you can possibly argue that Ned was not trying to find the best solution, or that he wasn't considering the hardships that Jon would have to go through. He's clearly reluctant to let Jon take the black, in part because he's so young. But what choice does he have? His wife is insistent that the boy can't stay, and he can't be taken to court either. And furthermore, Jon wants to join the Watch. Given these constraints, the choice seems obvious. Why on earth would you consider Ned's choice to be foolish?

Oh I am saying he was trying to find the best solution, just as I'm insisting that he's not cold and calculating about things.

The interesting part of course is that we see this from Cat's perspective, and don't get to see what Ned's all "silent and thoughtful" about considering he apparently doesn't have a choice. But of course I R+L=J, he most certainly does have a choice or at the very least the possibility of mentally kicking himself for not taking Cat into confidence sooner.

The impression I get about Ned was that he was someone who all his life knew what right and wrong was, and Lyanna screwed all that up when he learned the truth and made him make a promise, and he's basically been trying to not confront things ever since because he's not really sure what to do. I've got great empathy for him, but by no means do I think he's got the mental resources to really think things through.

[Dragonfish]

Oh I am saying he was trying to find the best solution, just as I'm insisting that he's not cold and calculating about things.

I don't see why this matters. If he was trying to find the best solution, and Jon taking the black was considered the best solution, then how can Ned's choice to allow Jon to take the black be considered foolish?

The interesting part of course is that we see this from Cat's perspective, and don't get to see what Ned's all "silent and thoughtful" about considering he apparently doesn't have a choice. But of course I R+L=J, he most certainly does have a choice or at the very least the possibility of mentally kicking himself for not taking Cat into confidence sooner.

I don't think revealing Jon's true parentage to Catelyn was really on option. I think Ned considered it too dangerous, per the passage about secrets I posted above.

[The Greatmatt]

I don't see why this matters. If he was trying to find the best solution, and Jon taking the black was considered the best solution, then how can Ned's choice to allow Jon to take the black be considered foolish?

You're using "considered" with different subjects. Obviously Ned didn't consider the choice foolish, but I do.

[Dragonfish]

You're using "considered" with different subjects. Obviously Ned didn't consider the choice foolish, but I do.

If you were in Ned's place, what would you have done differently?

[The Greatmatt]

If you were in Ned's place, what would you have done differently?

Good way to get to the crux, of course it depends on a few things.

If Lyanna literally said "Promise me you won't ever tell anyone, not even Cat.", that could give me pause as to what I'd do with Cat. I can't imagine all the contingencies, and so you could say I'm being unfair calling Ned foolish. Then again, it's not like we haven't seen him be foolish when thinking about politics before...

If she was more vague, and just said "Promise me you'll keep him safe and keep his identity a secret", then if I really trusted Cat, and her treatment of Jon was the only problem I saw with her behavior, I'd have told her years before. The reality is that her not knowing the truth presented a danger to Jon so she had to know.

If 1) I hadn't told her before she insisted she wouldn't let him stay there, 2) I didn't think Jon was ready for the Wall, and 3) I really trusted Cat, I'd have told Lewin to get out of the room, and then I would have told her the truth and seen how she reacted. If this had the desired effect Jon would have stayed at Winterfell. If it didn't, then Jon would have gone to the Wall and I would have never forgiven Cat.

If Jon went to the Wall, I would have told Jon the truth before he went unless there was some super special reason why he couldn't know according to Lyanna. This is a truth I'd need to make sure he'd know before I died, and if I've decided Cat can't be trusted, then I need to do it then and there.

[The_BlauerDragon]

I see that the heretical theory which must not be named still endures. Much to my dismay.

[The Greatmatt]

I see that the heretical theory which must not be named still endures. Much to my dismay.

I'm new to these boards so I haven't heard the counterarguments. Care to expound?

[Dragonfish]

If she was more vague, and just said "Promise me you'll keep him safe and keep his identity a secret", then if I really trusted Cat, and her treatment of Jon was the only problem I saw with her behavior, I'd have told her years before. The reality is that her not knowing the truth presented a danger to Jon so she had to know.

This is what I take issue with, for a couple reasons I've mostly spelled out before:

1) Ned telling Catelyn the truth about Jon is dangerous, for both her and Jon. This is a momentous secret, and even telling one more person risks letting the whole thing get out. And if Catelyn is discovered to have known all along, she herself would likely be executed for treason.

2) Catelyn really didn't treat Jon that badly, per the quote from George above. However, if you think she's a danger to Jon while she thinks he's Ned's son, just imagine how she would feel if she found out about Jon's true parentage. Surely harboring the son of Rhaegar is more dangerous than raising Ned's biological son? I think Catelyn would be even more insistent that he could not stay at Winterfell, because he would be even more of a danger to her children as Rhaegar's son.