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R + L = J Part XXIV


Stubby

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^ All of this, basically.

I'll just add the rhetorical question: If Jon's mother is Wylla or Ashara, why couldn't Ned just come out and say so? There is absolutely nothing about either of them that could, would or should prevent Ned from telling Jon the truth about his mother, if one of them actually was his mother.

Whenever people try to write off Rhaegar and Lyanna, they never think to answer the above question.

It's a good point, but there is at least some answer there, particularly if the mother is Ashara.

We know Ned is prone to what I'd call "honor paralysis". It's conceivable that any blemish at all on his honor makes him freeze up, which could explain even Wylla. More plausibly, if Jon's mother really did kill herself because of a combination of Ned killing her brother and leaving her for Cat, pretty understandable that that would be something just hoped he'd never have to talk about.

So yeah, I just keep going back to Lyanna. There's got to be something there. If it's not Jon, then so far as I can tell it's something wholly unpredictable. GRRM can go the unpredictable route of course...but those rejecting the theory based on trying to anticipate counterintuitive author behavior are essentially chasing their own tail.

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Ned explicitly states in AGoT:

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."

Do you think Jon's true parentage, if he is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, would not be a secret to dangerous to share even with those you love and trust?

I suppose that is possible. That line definitely seems to hint at Ned keeping a secret. Perhaps Ned allows Jon to be sent to the wall because he simply doesn't love him that much? He is a reminder of Lyanna's abduction, and perhaps even Ned himself isn't all too keen on his parentage?

I wish GRRM would spill the beans already though!

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I suppose that is possible. That line definitely seems to hint at Ned keeping a secret. Perhaps Ned allows Jon to be sent to the wall because he simply doesn't love him that much? He is a reminder of Lyanna's abduction, and perhaps even Ned himself isn't all too keen on his parentage?

I wish GRRM would spill the beans already though!

That's ... a really, really big stretch, sorry. Especially when we can see in Ned's mind that he does love and care for Jon, but he doesn't think of him in the same way that he sees his own kids. I think the only possibility that makes a modicum of sense here, given that Ned feels substantial guilt about secrets related to Jon and related to Lyanna (not separately, they go together), is that Lyanna is Jon's real mother.

We know Ned is prone to what I'd call "honor paralysis". It's conceivable that any blemish at all on his honor makes him freeze up, which could explain even Wylla. More plausibly, if Jon's mother really did kill herself because of a combination of Ned killing her brother and leaving her for Cat, pretty understandable that that would be something just hoped he'd never have to talk about.

I get your point, but Ned holding onto secrets for his own edification — to keep from having to face up to his own dishonor — pretty much reeks of a selfishness I'm not sure he possesses. It's one thing to keep secrets about Jon's parentage when it's a matter of a family promise and Jon's own safety. Doing it just so Ned doesn't have to feel like a prick doesn't really fit with him as a person.

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I get your point, but Ned holding onto secrets for his own edification — to keep from having to face up to his own dishonor — pretty much reeks of a selfishness I'm not sure he possesses. It's one thing to keep secrets about Jon's parentage when it's a matter of a family promise and Jon's own safety. Doing it just so Ned doesn't have to feel like a prick doesn't really fit with him as a person.

Good point.

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i am not entirely sure of this theory of L+R= J. From what i remember, Lyanna is kidnapped by Rhegar and locked in a tower ( we don't know how long). Did she give birth when she was locked away? If so, she would've been pregnant during such time ( well, duh). I don't remember reading she had some courtship with Rhegar, but more with Robert. We know Rhegar was quite smitten with her, but does that necessarily mean they had a fling. I might be missing something. I finished the AGOT, last year.

Sorry, if this all repetitive, but trying iron this theory out for myself.

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I think its amazing that after all these years theres still people willing to talk about theories some crack pt other viable. Truly amazing speaks to magnificence of the series.

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Also, if Jon is Lyanna and Rhegar's child, the only danger this secret would bring about is Robert hearing about. Other than that, i don't see what's the big deal if he were tell Catelyn that this child is actually his nephew. I know Catelyn would be relieved for sure.

As for theories, I think it's fun to talk about the different directions, lives, mysteries of these characters. That is why this series is incredible, because it allows us to do that. :)

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i am not entirely sure of this theory of L+R= J. From what i remember, Lyanna is kidnapped by Rhegar and locked in a tower ( we don't know how long). Did she give birth when she was locked away? If so, she would've been pregnant during such time ( well, duh). I don't remember reading she had some courtship with Rhegar, but more with Robert. We know Rhegar was quite smitten with her, but does that necessarily mean they had a fling. I might be missing something. I finished the AGOT, last year.

Sorry, if this all repetitive, but trying iron this theory out for myself.

1. We're told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. The only people who act like it was a kidnapping are Robert (who was jealous of Rhaegar) and Bran (who's parroting propaganda). Plenty of other people speak about the situation as if they consensually ran off together.

2. Yes, she would've given birth in the Tower of Joy. But I don't think she was "locked away."

3. She didn't love or want Robert at all. That "romance" was entirely one-sided on his part, and she was only marrying him because her father wanted her to.

Also, if Jon is Lyanna and Rhegar's child, the only danger this secret would bring about is Robert hearing about. Other than that, i don't see what's the big deal if he were tell Catelyn that this child is actually his nephew. I know Catelyn would be relieved for sure.

It's not just Robert, though. Do you think the Lannisters, the same people who had already murdered Rhaegar's other children, would take kindly to the existence of another heir? It absolutely would have been dangerous, to both Ned and Jon, if the secret got out.

At the time Ned brought Jon back, he still didn't know Catelyn very well and wasn't sure if he could trust her. By the time he could, the secret was so ingrained that it was too late. As others have said, the ruse is convincing precisely because Catelyn seems to despise Jon the way she would a bastard. If Catelyn acted motherly or nurturing or overly friendly, people would've started asking questions. Ned keeping Catelyn in the dark also gives her plausible deniability in case the truth is ever revealed; she wouldn't be punished for his crime if she legitimately didn't know.

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Does anyone think there could be credence for Jon being the product of Brandon and Ashara?

I've thought about that, but it still wouldn't explain Ned's reluctance to tell Jon the truth. There's no political danger in telling Jon the truth if Brandon and Ashara were his parents. If Brandon and Ashara were secretly married, Jon would be the rightful heir to Winterfell before Ned, and Ned wouldn't screw him over. If they weren't, and Jon is really just a bastard, there is no reason whatsoever not to explain the situation truthfully.

It also doesn't explain the other circumstantial evidence about Jon, i.e. the blue rose on the ice wall.

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1. We're told that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. The only people who act like it was a kidnapping are Robert (who was jealous of Rhaegar) and Bran (who's parroting propaganda). Plenty of other people speak about the situation as if they consensually ran off together.

2. Yes, she would've given birth in the Tower of Joy. But I don't think she was "locked away."

3. She didn't love or want Robert at all. That "romance" was entirely one-sided on his part, and she was only marrying him because her father wanted her to.

It's not just Robert, though. Do you think the Lannisters, the same people who had already murdered Rhaegar's other children, would take kindly to the existence of another heir? It absolutely would have been dangerous, to both Ned and Jon, if the secret got out.

At the time Ned brought Jon back, he still didn't know Catelyn very well and wasn't sure if he could trust her. By the time he could, the secret was so ingrained that it was too late. As others have said, the ruse is convincing precisely because Catelyn seems to despise Jon the way she would a bastard. If Catelyn acted motherly or nurturing or overly friendly, people would've started asking questions. Ned keeping Catelyn in the dark also gives her plausible deniability in case the truth is ever revealed; she wouldn't be punished for his crime if she legitimately didn't know.

Good Point. I didn't even consider the Lannisters in this equation. It certainly bring an interesting new direction in the book. IF the secret were to come out somehow. But would Jon, knowing his lineage, fight for the Iron Throne? He would be considered an heir, unlike Robert who simply a usurper.

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Yeah. He was so enamored that he let himself believe that Rhaegar had kidnapped and raped her, rather than face up to the truth.

One thing I don't understand is why would Ned and his brother/father become so enraged over Rhaegar's kidnapping if it wasn't actually a 'kidnapping'? It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar let his father kill the family of his 'beloved'?

I don't believe Ned's honour would allow himself to raise arms against the king, even if his best friend asked him too.

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One thing I don't understand is why would Ned and his brother/father become so enraged over Rhaegar's kidnapping if it wasn't actually a 'kidnapping'? It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar let his father kill the family of his 'beloved'?

I don't believe Ned's honour would allow himself to raise arms against the king, even if his best friend asked him too.

Oh I'm sure that at the time they did think it was a kidnapping. But that doesn't make it so.

My thinking is, communications got crossed or Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't expect their families to respond the way they did, or something. It's entirely possible that if they were living in isolation in Dorne, they didn't know what had happened at King's Landing until a fair bit of time after the fact. There's still a LOT we don't know about exactly what happened — I just see no evidence beyond Robert's bitter ranting that it was actually a kidnapping.

Good Point. I didn't even consider the Lannisters in this equation. It certainly bring an interesting new direction in the book. IF the secret were to come out somehow. But would Jon, knowing his lineage, fight for the Iron Throne? He would be considered an heir, unlike Robert who simply a usurper.

We'll find out, I'm sure.

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I've thought about that, but it still wouldn't explain Ned's reluctance to tell Jon the truth. There's no political danger in telling Jon the truth if Brandon and Ashara were his parents. If Brandon and Ashara were secretly married, Jon would be the rightful heir to Winterfell before Ned, and Ned wouldn't screw him over. If they weren't, and Jon is really just a bastard, there is no reason whatsoever not to explain the situation truthfully.

It also doesn't explain the other circumstantial evidence about Jon, i.e. the blue rose on the ice wall.

Jon would still be a bastard though unless they were somehow married and I think that's a bit iffy on the timelines (Harrenhal tourney about 6 months before the rebellion starts I think).

That scenario does though potentially pose Ned's kids a danger from Jon if Ned were to die (as he knew was a possibility after being asked to be Hand) and Jon for whatever reason turned out to be a weasel/becomes a tool of a rival house etc.

Reason enough not to tell him perhaps - and particularly not to tell him then.

I base this a bit on Barristan Selmy's nameless Stark who

'dishounoured' Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal - there's some interesting specualtion in the DwD forum on that :)

What's the blue rose bit? :)

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One thing I don't understand is why would Ned and his brother/father become so enraged over Rhaegar's kidnapping if it wasn't actually a 'kidnapping'? It doesn't add up. Why would Rhaegar let his father kill the family of his 'beloved'?

I don't believe Ned's honour would allow himself to raise arms against the king, even if his best friend asked him too.

I certainly believe it would. Everyone knew that Aerys was this mad king, a tyrant. I think Ned would go against a tyrant King before going against his friend no matter how much in denial he was. Just my personal opinion.

I think Rhaegar was powerless when it came to his father, the king. If he was that much of tyrant, one can only know what he would've done.

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Jon would still be a bastard though unless they were somehow married and I think that's a bit iffy on the timelines (Harrenhal tourney about 6 months before the rebellion starts I think).

That scenario does though potentially pose Ned's kids a danger from Jon if Ned were to die (as he knew was a possibility after being asked to be Hand) and Jon for whatever reason turned out to be a weasel/becomes a tool of a rival house etc.

Reason enough not to tell him perhaps - and particularly not to tell him then.

I base this a bit on Barristan Selmy's nameless Stark who

'dishounoured' Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal - there's some interesting specualtion in the DwD forum on that :)

What's the blue rose bit? :)

Yeah, if Brandon and Ashara weren't married, Jon would still be a bastard. So in that case, why not just tell him the truth? Either he's Ned's bastard or he's Brandon's. And like you said, the timeline doesn't work — Brandon and Ashara would've had a fling at Harrenhal if anywhere, and Jon is too young for that to be a solution for his conception.

It would only put Ned's kids in danger from Jon if Jon were Brandon's trueborn son (doubtful) or Brandon's bastard and somehow legitimized. At that point in the story (from Ned's perspective when Jon was young), there's no reason to think he would be. I think Ned, given everything that we know about him, would prefer to tell Jon the truth if he could.

The blue rose bit is from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. She sees a blue rose growing in a wall of ice. We've been told repeatedly that Lyanna loved blue roses and she's associated with blue roses. Jon is on the "wall of ice" in the Night's Watch. Ergo, a blue rose growing in an ice wall is basically a knock-you-over-the-head allusion that Lyanna (the blue rose) has some connection to Jon (the wall of ice). Not only that, but the blue rose is connected to Lyanna through Rhaegar — the bouquet he gave her at Harrenhal and the roses she had in the Tower of Joy. The roses in the Tower also accompanied the smell of blood. In that case, the roses have the connotation of childbirth as well.

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Yeah, if Brandon and Ashara weren't married, Jon would still be a bastard. So in that case, why not just tell him the truth? Either he's Ned's bastard or he's Brandon's. And like you said, the timeline doesn't work — Brandon and Ashara would've had a fling at Harrenhal if anywhere, and Jon is too young for that to be a solution for his conception.

It would only put Ned's kids in danger from Jon if Jon were Brandon's trueborn son (doubtful) or Brandon's bastard and somehow legitimized. At that point in the story (from Ned's perspective when Jon was young), there's no reason to think he would be. I think Ned, given everything that we know about him, would prefer to tell Jon the truth if he could.

The blue rose bit is from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying. She sees a blue rose growing in a wall of ice. We've been told repeatedly that Lyanna loved blue roses and she's associated with blue roses. Jon is on the "wall of ice" in the Night's Watch. Ergo, a blue rose growing in an ice wall is basically a knock-you-over-the-head-obvious allusion that Lyanna (the blue rose) has some connection to Jon (the wall of ice). Not only that, but the blue rose is connected to Lyanna through Rhaegar — the bouquet he gave her at Harrenhal and the roses she had in the Tower of Joy. The roses in the Tower also accompanied the smell of blood. In that case, the roses have the connotation of childbirth as well.

Ahh - thanks. Man - it's so dense this series - hard to remember everything! :P

Hmm - as you say a very strong indicator. But the Ashara/Brandon/Ned/Harrenhal plot must have some significance if not Jon maybe

YG?

.

Still say it's a possibility though as some pretty large rugs have been pulled from under us so far! I kind of remember having the impression that Ned didn't tell Jon just because there wasn't time to do it properly at that point.

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I certainly believe it would. Everyone knew that Aerys was this mad king, a tyrant. I think Ned would go against a tyrant King before going against his friend no matter how much in denial he was. Just my personal opinion.

I think Rhaegar was powerless when it came to his father, the king. If he was that much of tyrant, one can only know what he would've done.

I've never really doubted Robert until now. I always saw him as a drunk with a big heart I guess. Still one would think that Lyanna could have dismissed Robert's proposal and suggested Rhaegar? The events are so clouded I guess.

It is even possible that Lyanna killed herself learning of Rhaegar's death... :stunned:

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