R + L = J Part XXIV

[Yuki_no_Jon]

Ahh - thanks. Man - it's so dense this series - hard to remember everything! :P

Hmm - as you say a very strong indicator. But the Ashara/Brandon/Ned/Harrenhal plot must have some significance if not Jon maybe

YG?

.

Still say it's a possibility though as some pretty large rugs have been pulled from under us so far! I kind of remember having the impression that Ned didn't tell Jon just because there wasn't time to do it properly at that point.

I think the latter was imposed in the tv series. in the book, I never remember Ned implying that he'd love to tell Jon about his parentage but has no time...

other than that, I just noticed that when Ned approved Jon's joining of the NW we were actually seeing Catelyn's POV...

that way, we don't really know what exactly Ned was thinking about this decision

[Winterfelon]

I think the latter was imposed in the tv series. in the book, I never remember Ned implying that he'd love to tell Jon about his parentage but has no time...

other than that, I just noticed that when Ned approved Jon's joining of the NW we were actually seeing Catelyn's POV...

that way, we don't really know what exactly Ned was thinking about this decision

Yeah - not saying Ned implied it himself, more that it was an impression I got from the way everything happened with the departure to KL...

I may be wrong - it has been known :P

[Antoinetta]

I've never really doubted Robert until now. I always saw him as a drunk with a big heart I guess. Still one would think that Lyanna could have dismissed Robert's proposal and suggested Rhaegar? The events are so clouded I guess.

It is even possible that Lyanna killed herself learning of Rhaegar's death... :stunned:

Well, consider the fact that Robert wanted to kill Dany. Ned had some major objections to that, but he wanted her out of the way for sure. Reading these books, I've learned that everyone is in it for themselves. Even they believe they are doing it for the greater good.

[Antoinetta]

" the seed is strong"-jon arryn. Could he mean Jon?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

" the seed is strong"-jon arryn. Could he mean Jon?

No, he's referring to Robert's seed, i.e. his genetics. Meaning, if Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were really Robert's kids, they'd have black hair, not golden.

[Antoinetta]

I was thinking maybe there is another meaning behind that phrase. Besides referring to Robert's seed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I was thinking maybe there is another meaning behind that phrase. Besides referring to Robert's seed.

Yeahhhhh maybe. Doubt it though. ;)

[An Ironborn Son]

I still go back to 3 Kingsguard at the tower...it just doesn't add up to being a royal protection mission. Arthur Dayne should have wanted to protect Elia if he were involved in protecting anyone, the second wife of the Prince wouldn't have matter as much heir or not. Three guardians would have at least appealed to Targaryean sensibilities, especially Rhaegar's preoccupation with the 3 dragon heads. And while I could see them falling back there after the sack of King's Landing and Elia's death but it just doesn't follow to me that the Mad King would allow three of his best warriors to be holed up watching a pregnant woman, because we see how well they guarded Rhaegar's first wife.

So I guess we could see it as Rhaegar begging Arthur to watch the lady for him but that doesn't seem to gel with me after what Jaime says regarding how loyal the old KG was to the king and only the king. It seems like a little bit of a stretch that they'd all go on the Prince's command.

But what if instead of begging Ned to protect her newborn, Lyanna implored her brother to save the rest of the Targaryean's that were still alive? I think that better explains why Ned doesn't want to see Robert kill Dany.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I still go back to 3 Kingsguard at the tower...it just doesn't add up to being a royal protection mission.

See, that's exactly why it DOES add up to a "royal protection mission," in my opinion. Why else would they be there, if not on a royal protection mission?

[The Greatmatt]

See, that's exactly why it DOES add up to a "royal protection mission," in my opinion. Why else would they be there, if not on a royal protection mission?

Agree. "kings guard" is a synonym of "royal protection". It's literally their job to protect the royals, and for any large group of kingsguard to be not with any member of the royal blood is just strange.

[ARYa_Nym]

If this theory turns out to be true I wonder how Jon will take it.

The man who he thinks is father was close friends with his actual father's killer. & it's no secret how pleased Robert was with Rhaenys and Aegon's death. They are his actual siblings. The siblings he thought he had are his cousins.

I feel bad for him. I'd have to reread but I don't remember if Robert directly interacted with him. That would probably haunt Jon in retrospect.

[An Ironborn Son]

See, that's exactly why it DOES add up to a "royal protection mission," in my opinion. Why else would they be there, if not on a royal protection mission?

But that's my problem, clearly the KG weren't protecting anyone else with that kind of seriousness. I mean, maybe if Lyanna were married to the Prince that would make her a VIP but if the three knights were there before the Sack of King's Landing that seems like way too many people for one person. The reason that I think it seems like more than a protection mission is because of the sheer number of knights there. Look at when Myrcella is sent to the Dornish lands she only gets one knight...why would a pregnant lady get soo many and why didn't that attract more attention?

[kg1982]

If this theory turns out to be true I wonder how Jon will take it.

By sulking most likely and then someone like Tyrion slapping some sense into him. I think that the whole idea of Jon's arc is that you have some choice in your family and identity. Even if Rhaegar is his father by blood, Ned is truly Jon's father and he's truly a Stark. Ned sacrificed quite a bit for his nephew; he defied his best friend, risked his life, and besmirched his sacred honor. The only other time he willingly besmirched his honor was to save Sansa's life in King's Landing by confessing to false treason. That would make Jon as much of Ned Stark's child as Sansa, Arya, Robb, Bran, and Rickon.

But that's my problem, clearly the KG weren't protecting anyone else with that kind of seriousness. I mean, maybe if Lyanna were married to the Prince that would make her a VIP but if the three knights were there before the Sack of King's Landing that seems like way too many people for one person.

My theory is that Rhaegar decided that Jon was TPTWP because he was the union between fire (Rhaegar) and ice (Lyanna). I guess third time is a charm when it comes to interpreting prophecies.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

If this theory turns out to be true I wonder how Jon will take it.

The man who he thinks is father was close friends with his actual father's killer. & it's no secret how pleased Robert was with Rhaenys and Aegon's death. They are his actual siblings. The siblings he thought he had are his cousins.

I feel bad for him. I'd have to reread but I don't remember if Robert directly interacted with him. That would probably haunt Jon in retrospect.

Catelyn did protect him from such a meeting by forbidding him to join the feast. jon did saw Robert from away and his though (as was explained in Jon's POV) was that Robert was nothing close to Ned's narrations or like a true king. and that a Jaime Lannister was seeming more of a king - or, to use his words- a king should be like Jaime.

[Phreadde the Mummer]

Well, I feel like a complete Hodor.

I just discovered these forums today, and was chagrined that there was such a long (and completely hashed out) thread on what I was so proud of deducing while re-reading the first four books in preparation for reading the new one.

As for my own reasoning, it may all have been covered in the (many, many) "volumes" of this topic, but here are some I haven't seen in this particular thread:

It is really hammered home that, in Westeros, dark hair is genetically dominant and will "overcome" lighter hair every time. While it's used in relation to the Lannister Twins and their get, it would be equally true of a R + L progeny. After all, even if it isn't said (and it might be, my memory isn't as good as it used to be) that Rhaegar was blond, Dany and Viserys certainly are. That would speak to blond being a trait of the Targaryens. Starks are dark haired, meaning progeny of R + L would be dark haired. Note that it is remarked a number of times that Arya Stark looks and acts much as Lyanna did. Also note that Jon Snow is said to look much like Arya, and obviously has her temperament as well. Ergo, Jon looks like Lyanna and has her temperament.

I conclude that the promise extracted from Ned by Lyanna on her deathbed was to take the infant Jon, the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar Targaryen, as his own, to spare his life from the systematic slaughter of all the Targaryens that was taking place by the Lannisters and sanctioned by Robert. Ned is obviously uncomfortable in the crypts when Robert is mooning after "his" lost Lyanna, perhaps for guilt in not telling his friend Robert that Lyanna came to love Rhaegar and bore his son? Remember, too, on their ride together across the barrows in the north, Robert asks Ned about the mother of Jon, and Ned really gets huffy about not answering "now or ever". Why not? It's not like Robert doesn't go on (and on and on and on) about the wenches he beds (even his Queen wife). Even someone as stolid as Ned would realize that the quickest way to get Robert to drop the subject would be to name the mother of "his" bastard, and make some remark on Summer Love... and that would be that. The only thing that makes sense is that Ned can't tell Robert. Why would Lyanna want Ned to keep Robert from knowing that she bore him a son? What we know of Robert's affection for Lyanna, he would have taken the boy as his prince, surely. No, it only makes sense that Lyanna wanted to keep her son safe FROM Robert, and perhaps spare Robert the painful knowledge that she came to love his sworn enemy. If we take into account that any Targaryen children were being slaughtered, and the reaction of Robert to Dany's marriage and pregnancy, it puts that much sharper a point on the argument that Ned can tell no one.

It makes perfect sense, and sets up Jon to be vital to the future, far beyond his duties on the Wall.

So, while I am late to the party, put me down solidly in the "R+L=J" camp.

[starki]

Is there any solid proof why Jon's parentage isn't the easy solution, ie a Stark* and Ashara Dayne ?

*a Stark got her pregnant, according to Barristan Selmy. It was never confirmed 100% it's Ned. But it would sure sound a lot like Ned to take the blame for it, and raise Jon in his own home.

The popular theory R+l = J sounds too pretty for the world of GRRM, plus it ruins Daenerys' claim to the Throne, with Jon being the older male heir. (assuming they're both still around, I have not read ADWD) It would make all her story pointless. IMO Jon is no King or APTWP, he is just a Commander on the Wall.

Promise me, Ned could easily have been "promise me...you'll bury me in Winterfell" rather than "promise me you'll take care of my child".

Why 3 members of Kingsguard ? For the lover of a crown prince currently at war and member of a big House in Westeros, why is this not enough and there *has to be a child present ?

[Howlin' Reed]

The popular theory R+l = J sounds too pretty for the world of GRRM, plus it ruins Daenerys' claim to the Throne, with Jon being the older male heir. (assuming they're both still around, I have not read ADWD) It would make all her story pointless. IMO Jon is no King or APTWP, he is just a Commander on the Wall.

His place in the succession is immaterial - he took the black.

[starki]

His place in the succession is immaterial - he took the black.

This may be immaterial if the Others charge over the Wall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is there any solid proof why Jon's parentage isn't the easy solution, ie a Stark* and Ashara Dayne ?

*a Stark got her pregnant, according to Barristan Selmy. It was never confirmed 100% it's Ned. But it would sure sound a lot like Ned to take the blame for it, and raise Jon in his own home.

The popular theory R+l = J sounds too pretty for the world of GRRM, plus it ruins Daenerys' claim to the Throne, with Jon being the older male heir. (assuming they're both still around, I have not read ADWD) It would make all her story pointless. IMO Jon is no King or APTWP, he is just a Commander on the Wall.

Promise me, Ned could easily have been "promise me...you'll bury me in Winterfell" rather than "promise me you'll take care of my child".

Why 3 members of Kingsguard ? For the lover of a crown prince currently at war and member of a big House in Westeros, why is this not enough and there *has to be a child present ?

I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone else who poses that solution: What about it would keep Ned from being able to tell Jon the truth? Brandon and Ashara (allegedly) are both dead. If they were Jon's parents, or if Ashara was his mother, why not just say so? If they were secretly married before they had Jon, he would actually be the legal heir to Winterfell, and Ned isn't the type to screw his nephew out of a rightful inheritance. And if Brandon and Ashara weren't married, Jon would still just be a bastard. Same legal situation as if he were the son of Ned and Ashara. So why not tell him the truth, if Ned was able to do so? This is the same guy who confessed his entire plan to Cersei out of his sense of honor. Do you really believe that he wouldn't tell Jon the truth about his mother if it was safe to do so?

Dany's claim to the throne looks like it will be based more on "I have dragons" and less on "I have the legal right." She may have started out believing the latter, but it's developed into an attitude based on the former. There are also developments in ADWD that weaken your argument about a "hidden" male Targaryen making Dany's storyline pointless. I won't say anything else seeing as you haven't read the book, just that it doesn't really work as an argument anymore.

When Ned and Robert visit the crypt, the reader is somewhat led to believe that Ned's promise was to take her back to Winterfell, but when you actually think about it, this makes no sense. She goes from being afraid to being unafraid as soon as he makes his promise. Over being buried in the family crypt? Ned also recalls his promise during very maternal-instinct-based conflicts, namely Sansa pleading for the life of her wolf. It makes no sense for Ned to recall the promise during that type of situation if it was just to bury her in the damn crypt. It's also clear that Ned's promise continues to haunt him and he feels like he's living a lie. It's an ongoing promise. Lyanna is already entombed in the crypt and has been for more than a decade, so why would the promise, if that's what it was about, continue to torment Ned and make him feel guilty?

Finally, about the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard members protect the royal family. They aren't sworn to members of "a big house in Westeros." At the time that Ned and company find them, both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, and the Kingsguard members know it. Their allegiance would transfer to the next rightful heir immediately after the monarch, crown prince and his known children (namely Aegon) were killed. Ned points out that this should be Viserys. The entire conversation between Ned, Dayne, Hightower and Whent subtly suggests that at that point in time, Viserys isn't actually the rightful heir, because if he was, they already would have gone to Dragonstone to protect him. The value of Lyanna as a protection assignment, if they were there for her only as you suggest, ended when Rhaegar died.

This may be immaterial if the Others charge over the Wall.

It would also be immaterial if Jon technically does die at the end of ADWD and is able to be revived.

[Dragonfish]

*a Stark got her pregnant, according to Barristan Selmy. It was never confirmed 100% it's Ned. But it would sure sound a lot like Ned to take the blame for it, and raise Jon in his own home.

Actually, Barristan never says a Stark got her pregnant. He simply says that a "man" dishonored her at Harrenhal, and in an entirely separate sentence he says that Ashara "looked to" a Stark at some point. She could have looked to a Stark as a romantic partner, or she could have looked to a Stark for help. It's not entirely clear which one Barristan means.

But even if Barristan is implying that a Stark "dishonored" Ashara at Harrenhal, this would mean that Jon was conceived at Harrenhal, which is simply impossible given that the tourney at Harrenhal took place about a year before the Rebellion.

Promise me, Ned could easily have been "promise me...you'll bury me in Winterfell" rather than "promise me you'll take care of my child".

Why does Ned think of this promise at the oddest times? Why does he compare Lyanna's pleading to Sansa's pleading for Lady? Why does he think to himself that he's been living lies for the past fourteen years? Why wouldn't Ned simply tell Jon who his mother is? No theory but R+L=J adequately answers these questions.