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R + L = J Part XXIV


Stubby

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that's what makes the whole rl=j theory seem superfluous to me--

if jon really is aegon's younger brother, and if aegon really is alive--then who cares? he's not heir to anything, still a bastard (or even if there was some secret marriage--which is totally spec w/o any evidentiary support--he's still w/o parents), and his siblings aren't even his siblings. seems like a no-win for poor jon.

since the rl got married in secret theory is the only way for jon to be heir (w/o aegon in the picture), it got me thinking about brandon as his father--in ADWD, Lady Dustin goes on and on about how much she hates Ned--and how she had a sexual relationship with Brandon right up until he left to marry Cat--this timeline fits with Jon being born b/c Rhaegar had to leave ToJ and go back to KL about the same time, or just after--he's in KL before the battle of The Trident--which is right after Brandon gets killed--so the last time each of them has had sex with their respective mates is around the same time.

Lady Dustin seems a little too pissed about Ned--she was apparently still screwing Brandon right up until he was to marry Catelyn--and Ned did go return Lord Dustin's horse to her on his way back to Winterfell after Robert's Rebellion.

I mean I know he called the banners, but she even says that her husband could have sent other people out, but didn't because he wanted to lead his men--doesn't seem like that's really Ned's fault--though I guess it could be enough to hate him--but why not hate Cat instead? Lady Dustin says that her dad was still hoping to wed her too Ned after Brandon died, but Ned ruined that by marrying Cat--but it seems like that was silly considering the tradition of getting passed down to the next brother, and she doesn't show any interest. She also expresses anger at Ned for not getting Dustin's bones back to her, only his horse--but taking Lyanna's bones back.

just wondering whether anyone finds it interesting that she maps out a bit of a timeline for Ned coming to see her on the way to Winterfell, her only being wed for less than 6 months when her husband left, and Brandon being with her right before he was to marry Cat--so of course, what I'm getting at is a baby. It would be pretty hysterical from a build up pov, though it would make his parentage boring, unless we assume the secret marriage, which everyone is content to do to make the lr=j as heir theory work. Granted it doesn't really have any support, and I don't actually believe it, but it seems interesting to me, if it was more like this (again without any evidentiary support):

1) Lyanna knows b/c Brandon or even Lady Dustin told her (they grew up riding at the rills all the time) and she told Ned b/c Brandon was dead and everyone else thinks the baby is Lord Dustins--

2)Lyanna tells Ned not to take the baby, or not to reveal the secret--

3) Ned is pissed and goes to claim him, but honorable enough to tell her that he won't reveal her secret and will instead let her say the baby died or something. ok this is getting laughable, since there's no evidence whatsoever that she had a baby that I know of--

4) Ned feels bad because Jon could have been raised with a mother who loved and wanted him, and/or Jon is the actual heir to Winterfell, but instead, he took Jon and Lord Dustin from Lady Dustin--and raised him as a bastard.

though, I don't know why he'd want to take Jon, since he's still a bastard, not even his, and would put a major stressor on his marriage--and then of course Jon is just Lady Dustin's and it sure doesn't seem like she gave a shit as she didn't ask about Jon--seems like there's no motive--unless it's so Lady Dustin doesn't try to use the baby as the heir to Winterfell by somehow legitimizing him--somehow being the operative word.

it doesn't make much sense if jon is heir to Winterfell and Ned knows--since Ned is way more honorable than that, so maybe it's that he's Brandon's bastard but Lady Dustin wants to raise him as hers because she had him right after Lord Dustin left for war and it's plausible to the outside world that he's Dustin's--but Ned won't let her or something. doesn't make muh sense, and I can't see any motive or any actual evidence of a baby from Lady Dustin to support this random theory of mine, but it doesn't make much sense for jon to be RL's at this point either because his place is clearly at the Wall fighting the Others (if he's still alive), he isn't the heir to the iron throne since Aegon is alive, and it seems like there's more to Lady Dustin's story than we're getting.

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that's what makes the whole rl=j theory seem superfluous to me--

if jon really is aegon's younger brother, and if aegon really is alive--then who cares?

This is partly why I think YG isn't actually Aegon.

since the rl got married in secret theory is the only way for jon to be heir (w/o aegon in the picture), it got me thinking about brandon as his father--in ADWD, Lady Dustin goes on and on about how much she hates Ned--and how she had a sexual relationship with Brandon right up until he left to marry Cat--this timeline fits with Jon being born b/c Rhaegar had to leave ToJ and go back to KL about the same time, or just after--he's in KL before the battle of The Trident--which is right after Brandon gets killed--so the last time each of them has had sex with their respective mates is around the same time.

I think you have the timeline wrong. Rhaegar came back a few months into the war, Brandon died before the war even began. The Battle of the Trident occurred long after he was dead. And since Jon was born around the Sack of King's Landing (which we know based on a SSM), he was likely conceived a few months into the year-long war, after Brandon was already dead. This makes it highly unlikely that Brandon was the father.

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hm. i wasn't aware that Rhaegar went to KL so long after Brandon was killed and the war was raging--from Jamie's POV in AFFC, where he talks to Rhaegar in KL and begs him not to go to the battle at The Trident, I got the impression that he was pretty hyped to go--and even if he wasn't super amped--he still goes to KL--I remember reading somewhere that he couldn't be bothered to leave ToJ for awhile, but I read that on a board, so if you know what book that's from, please let me know.

1) But what if Aegon is alive--I know you'd like to think he isn't and sure it's possible Aegon is a feint--but you have to allow for the possibility that he's real, especially considering that Tyrion is the one who called him out--i.e., he looks like a Targ. If that's true, then what's the point? And assuming it isn't true--what's the point of him being heir since Jon is needed at the Wall, and in any event, is all about Winterfell and the North? Is he going to fight the Others then win and the Wall is no longer necessary so he decides to go take over the Iron Throne and end all LOTR? That seems kind of lame as an ending to me--not to mention way too much of a copy of LOTR--which is a little too fairy tale for GRRM.

2) In your timeline, Jon is born during the sack of KL--which means Lyanna is kickin it in her birthing bed of blood for probably a month before Ned gets to her--even assuming it's just a few weeks to get all the way from KL to Dorne, you're really saying that there's nothing wrong with the theory that she is never cleaned up in all that time? I just don't buy it. That's fucking gross--I don't care how sick she is, someone is cleaning her--most likely bathing her to keep her fever down, changing her sheets if she shits them.

what is SSM btw?

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hm. i wasn't aware that Rhaegar went to KL so long after Brandon was killed and the war was raging--from Jamie's POV in AFFC, where he talks to Rhaegar in KL and begs him not to go to the battle at The Trident, I got the impression that he was pretty hyped to go--and even if he wasn't super amped--he still goes to KL--I remember reading somewhere that he couldn't be bothered to leave ToJ for awhile, but I read that on a board, so if you know what book that's from, please let me know.

Rhaegar came back soon after the Battle of the Bells (based on what Jaime says in ASoS), which was probably around a few months into the war (because Catelyn says in ASoS that Jon Arryn married Lysa in part because his heir died at the Battle of the Bells, and Catelyn and Lysa's weddings likely took place a few months into the war).

1) But what if Aegon is alive--I know you'd like to think he isn't and sure it's possible Aegon is a feint--but you have to allow for the possibility that he's real, especially considering that Tyrion is the one who called him out--i.e., he looks like a Targ. If that's true, then what's the point? And assuming it isn't true--what's the point of him being heir since Jon being needed at the Wall, and in any event, is all about Winterfell and the North? Is he going to fight the Others then take win and the Wall is no longer necessary so he decides to go take over the Iron Throne and end all LOTR? That seems kind of lame as an ending to me--not to mention way to much of a copy of LOTR--which is a little too fairy tale for GRRM.

I don't really know what the ramifications of Jon being Rhaegar's heir would be. I just think it's likely he's his heir, because otherwise the ToJ scene doesn't make sense.

2) In your timeline, Jon is born during the sack of KL--which means Lyanna is kickin it in her birthing bed of blood for probably a month before Ned gets to her--even assuming it's just a few weeks to get all the way from KL to Dorne, you're really saying that there's nothing wrong with the theory that she is never cleaned up in all that time? I just don't buy it. That's fucking gross--I don't care how sick she is, someone is cleaning her--most likely bathing her to keep her fever down, changing her sheets if she shits them.

I said Jon was born around the Sack, not exactly when it took place. He could have been born up to a month afterwards (based on a SSM where George said that Jon was probably born about 8 or 9 months before Daenerys).

what is SSM btw?

So Spake Martin.

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gotcha. guess

poor old Brandon died long before he had any issue (well long before he could have had Jon, anyway). I figured the theory was pretty silly anyway. I just think Lady Dustin's story is strange--though maybe it's nothing. Either way, I actually hope Jon is Ned's bastard--maybe that's just b/c I love Ned and want Jon to be his natural born son *shrug*. Doesn't make it true just b/c I want it to be though--and as much as I hate to say it, RL=J makes more sense than any other theory out there. I just hope it's a feint.

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I think it is epic if R+L=J but Jon make his decision to stay at the Wall and fight the Others.

Other than that, if Aegon is the real one, then I think it'll be even clearer. The iron throw by heir rights pass to aegon and Jon can stay in the North without feeling honour bound to claim a position that he never ever wanted

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If R+L=J it is not relevant whether or not Jon would be first in line for the throne, the fact that he is really a Targaryen is a big enough secret to keep his true identity hidden.

all this talk of secret marriages and whether Aegon is real doesn't change what we know about Ned, Jon, Lyanna, Rhaegar and the ToJ scene. Aegon may be older but he would not be ice and fire as Jon would be if R+L=J

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i know there's no reason to believe it, but what if Lyanna had twins? twins seem to be a theme throughout the books. The Lannisters, the Redwynes, Arryk and Erryk, Left and Right.

maybe Howland took the older one to Greywater Watch, along with the KG Knights (whom i do not believe could have been beaten by Ned and Howland and friends), sworn to protect the true heir?

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It means nothing.

Robert is from the south. He never sees snow, especially since it is officially summer, and has been for around 10 years.

Robert is just astonished at the presence of snow, even in the north. It's a pretty big deal for a southerner after 10 years of summer.

I'm not saying that Robert knows. I'm saying Ned must be spooked, speaking about Snow a few feet from Lyanna's corpse. That's why I think he followed up with a common answer to the question just to test Robert and make sure he didn't know anything about his secret that he was "hiding".

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