R + L = J Part XXIV

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Does a septon have to perform/witness the marriage to make it legal or do they have other Targ. ceremonies for marriage? There would have to be some witness, I wonder if we will ever really know because everyone is freaking dead.

ADWD spoilers.

There's a theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married "the northern way," in front of a heart tree. Bran, using his greenseer skills, could theoretically tap into the weirwood network and find out about the marriage and "prove" that it happened. It's also likely that someone — Wylla or Ashara or the Kingsguard — stood as a witness.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Im sure a septon would have had to be present for the marriage to he official. But i could be wrong. As for everyone being dead, if anyone is still alive who knows the truth it would most likely be Varys.

I really don't think Varys knows. He was always closer to Aerys than Rhaegar.

And Varys is behind the entire Aegon sub-plot. If he knew that there was another Targaryen heir, plus Dany, why would he trouble himself with Aegon?

[My blade shall cut lies]

If this theory proves true, do you think Jon will get a Valyrian steel Sword forged from pieces of Blackfyre(the Targaryen ancestral sword) and Ice(the Stark ancestral sword) that will symbolize his heritage and the unity of Ice and Fire?

[KiDisaster]

I really don't think Varys knows. He was always closer to Aerys than Rhaegar.

Fair points. Im just trying to think of living people who would know about a secret wedding between the two. Connington perhaps, Rhaegar definitely trusted him. ADWD spoilers ahead mayhaps.

EDIT: Home now and have the book on hand, things in the spoiler tags have changed.

Caution: complete speculation ahead, dont take this too seriously. Connington could have even been a witness if the timeline permits. He was exiled during the rebellion if im not mistaken, and presumably the marriage would have happened early on or maybe even shortly before. Im not very clear on the timeline, so please correct me if im wrong. Though your other point about them being behind the Aegon plot sort of throws the wrench in the gears here. Though its possible Connington knows about the marriage but not the child. Also possible that Varys is using Connington. EDIT: Nevermind that, the "False Dragon" comment in the epilogue was actually Ronnet Connington, not Varys.

[strifed169]

Would there be any chance that Ser Barristan knows the secret as well? he was one of the knights of the KG at the time wasn't he?

[zmflavius]

Would there be any chance that Ser Barristan knows the secret as well? he was one of the knights of the KG at the time wasn't he?

Ser Barristan has POVs in ADWD which shed some light on it, but none of his thoughts are conclusive, most of them are fairly vague, and the hints in general tend to cut both ways, lending support to both sides. At least, from what I could see.

[King Stannis]

Ser Barristan has POVs in ADWD which shed some light on it, but none of his thoughts are conclusive, most of them are fairly vague, and the hints in general tend to cut both ways, lending support to both sides. At least, from what I could see.

not to mention he has no reason to be thinking about it so it doesn't come up

[Whatever]

I really don't think Varys knows.

and what about the mysterious letter ned wrote when he was in the black cells and varys never sent?

Ser Barristan has POVs in ADWD which shed some light on it, but none of his thoughts are conclusive, most of them are fairly vague, and the hints in general tend to cut both ways, lending support to both sides. At least, from what I could see.

it seemed to me that the evidences in that chapter were AGAINST one of the theories:

the ned+ashara = jon theory.Since jon is born 9 months before dany, a couple of days before/after KL fell he has been conceived like 3/4 months into the war, 2 months after ned's wedding. Now, if ahsara dayne's daughter was conceived at Harrenhall, (about 18 months before the END of the war) her daughter would have been born about 3 months into the war which is exactly when JON was conceived (given or taken 2 weeks). Can you see ashara have sex with ned like, 2 weeks after the death of their (? hers ?) child? I don't think ashara was well enough to travel back then... so, barristan's tale completely against N+A, imo,

which is a shame because that's my favorite jon's parentage theory

Now, i have a timeline question about the R+L theory:

as i said in the spoiler above, we know that jon is born 9 months before dany, who was conceived the night Rhaella left KL (1 day before it fell, or maybe the same night, i don't remember) which means that jon is born the day when KL fell, given or taken a couple of days.

We also know that they day after KL fell, Ned came to know about Elia's death, and he didn't like it. We know he argued with Robert, went to Storm's end first and to the ToJ later.

How long does it take to go from KL to Storm's end and then to the mountains of dorne? KL and Storm's end are indeed quite close, there is a good road and ned was likely rushing ("....had ridden out that very day in a cold rage").. but the distance between storm's end and the ToJ is a little more, and there's no road. So, my bet is that it took ned 20 days, at least, (a month is a better guess, IMO) to go from KL to the ToJ, where, we know, lyanna was dying in her bed of blood.

Now, if lyanna was indeed dying because of a childbirt (which looks likely), how can that baby be jon? He was born like 3 weeks before...

Any thoughts?

[Yuki_no_Jon]

we know that Jon Snow is given birth 8 or 9 months prior to Daenerys. we don't know neither that Daenerys was conceived the last night Rhaenys stayed at KL nor that Rhaenys had a full pregancy. It could well have been that Dany was born primitive or that Jon was born at 9 months and 1 - 2 weeks. that sense would explain both their mothers dieing. In contrast with Elia, Lyanna is supposed to be very strong a woman, so her dieing I can only see it as a very difficult pregancy (in combination with her emotional state and the fear for her baby's future). As well, maybe Lyanna was trying to delay the baby's deliverance in a vain attempt to save it, or to make it look that it couldn't have been Rhaegar's child. [we've seen other similar schemes in fantasy and literature]..

I didn't really understood how you estimated these 3 weeks before, but I think the above can explain it even if it really exists

[Whatever]

we know that Jon Snow is given birth 8 or 9 months prior to Daenerys. we don't know neither that Daenerys was conceived the last night Rhaenys stayed at KL nor that Rhaenys had a full pregancy. It could well have been that Dany was born primitive or that Jon was born at 9 months and 1 - 2 weeks. that sense would explain both their mothers dieing. In contrast with Elia, Lyanna is supposed to be very strong a woman, so her dieing I can only see it as a very difficult pregancy (in combination with her emotional state and the fear for her baby's future). As well, maybe Lyanna was trying to delay the baby's deliverance in a vain attempt to save it, or to make it look that it couldn't have been Rhaegar's child. [we've seen other similar schemes in fantasy and literature]..

I didn't really understood how you estimated these 3 weeks before, but I think the above can explain it even if it really exists

1)we KNOW that dany has born 9 months after KL fell. (She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible - AGOT, daenerys I)

2)And we KNOW that jon is 9 months older (martin stated it). Thus, on the night KL fell or "near enough that it makes no matter" ;)

3)I extimated 3 weeks as the time to go from king's landing to storm's end, break a siege, go looking for a lonely castle in the middle of nowhere and reach it.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

1)we KNOW that dany has born 9 months after KL fell. (She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible - AGOT, daenerys I)

2)And we KNOW that jon is 9 months older (martin stated it). Thus, on the night KL fell or "near enough that it makes no matter" ;)

3)I extimated 3 weeks as the time to go from king's landing to storm's end, break a siege, go looking for a lonely castle in the middle of nowhere and reach it.

I didn't remember the 9 moons part (too early in the series), but now that you state it 9 moons is normally less than 9 months (somewhere around 8, 8 and a half cause moon's cycle's around 28 days rather than 30 -31).

other than that, I don't think either one date or the other are very accurate so that 1 month time can be considered a deviation from the original date.

as about 3. I understand the 1 month to be required to travel.. yet again, if it took Robert 1 month to get from KL to Winderfell (which I think is more distance) with a lot of caravans and such and stopping in every possible inn or castle on the way, I can't stop but think that 7 "soldiers" who want to move fast can make the distance in less than a month in spite of the war situation. and I'm not pretty sure, but I think that Ned solved in a rapid way the Siege at Storm's End...

[Whatever]

yes but he still didn't know where to find ToJ. I think we can low it down to 15 days then. Maybe 10. But it's still too much, and we should also add that ned doesn't leave KL until king bob gets there, and robert wasn't in KL when it fell. He came there later...

[Yuki_no_Jon]

true enough. but I suppose Robert wanted rapidly to accept his claim. I don't see him delay even for a day. especially when he knew nothing of Lyanna's fate. supposedly he did care at the time.

so, I imagine about 20 days after the killing of Aerys, Ned to be at ToJ. that means about 8 months prior to Dany's birth. (GRRM in the mail -as stated in the who are Jon Snow's parents thread- was about 8 to 9 months prior to Dany's)

and one more point. what if Lyanna didn't died instantly at birth? but -as she was supposed to be strong- strived to live? and only when her child's fate seemed taken care for she could die relieved?

in that case, the 3KG wouldn't leave the ToJ due to Lyanna's fragile state. the child would be given birth in an accepting time frame for Rhaegar to be his father and for NS and his northmen to find the 3 KG and Lyanna at the ToJ

[Galen M]

1)we KNOW that dany has born 9 months after KL fell. (She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible - AGOT, daenerys I)

2)And we KNOW that jon is 9 months older (martin stated it). Thus, on the night KL fell or "near enough that it makes no matter" ;)

3)I extimated 3 weeks as the time to go from king's landing to storm's end, break a siege, go looking for a lonely castle in the middle of nowhere and reach it.

I believe it was 8-9 months. If Jon was born 8 months before Dany, and Dany was born 9 months after the sack of KL, and it took Ned one month to go from KL to the ToJ, well, there you go.

[SecretSquirrel]

I was just thinking about how many people are left from those that were at the Tower of Joy. Just Howland Reed?

There is a saying, I think it goes, "Much of what was has been lost, for none now live who remember it."

I think there is a point where R + L = J cannot be proven, and does not need to be proven in order to move the story forward. I think the term is called plot escapement, when a previously important plot point (a fantasy trope really) is no longer important to the continuation of the story.

I think everytime someone types "Tower of Joy" on this site, a crannogman in crannogshire in his crannoghole cackles. Some say this character is Howland Reed, some say it is just the wind whistling over the top of The Wall.

[Dragonfish]

and what about the mysterious letter ned wrote when he was in the black cells and varys never sent?

We don't know if Ned actually wrote that letter or not.

[Whatever]

We don't know if Ned actually wrote that letter or not.

i know, i just want varys to know everything. that guy is cool ;)

I believe it was 8-9 months. If Jon was born 8 months before Dany, and Dany was born 9 months after the sack of KL, and it took Ned one month to go from KL to the ToJ, well, there you go.

okaay, thanks. I read somewhere that was stated "exactly 9 months" and the timeline-related problems gave me a headache

[corbon]

okaay, thanks. I read somewhere that was stated "exactly 9 months" and the timeline-related problems gave me a headache

You used the quote yourself - 9 moons, which is usually slightlye less than 9 months and could be as low as 8 months if it was 'just before' one moon to 'just after' another.

And the likely COD for Lyanna is thought to be puerperal fever. The two actual known historical examples given on wikipedia died one week and 10 days after giving birth respectively. So we could probably give Lyanna up to a couple of weeks after the birth before she dies.

So you see there is plenty of room to fit things in the time-line.

[Ser Waleed Malik]

There were three kingsguard knights there. why would they be there if not to protect royal blood.

[WantSomeFreyWithThat]

I was just thinking about how many people are left from those that were at the Tower of Joy. Just Howland Reed?

There is a saying, I think it goes, "Much of what was has been lost, for none now live who remember it."

I think there is a point where R + L = J cannot be proven, and does not need to be proven in order to move the story forward. I think the term is called plot escapement, when a previously important plot point (a fantasy trope really) is no longer important to the continuation of the story.

I think everytime someone types "Tower of Joy" on this site, a crannogman in crannogshire in his crannoghole cackles. Some say this character is Howland Reed, some say it is just the wind whistling over the top of The Wall.

I think this is true to an extent and at the same time not true to a certain extent. The fact that Jon is committed to the Night's Watch pretty much makes the R+L=J useless, no matter how much evidence he's throwing at us. Somehow, I'm thinking it's a strawman plot of GRRM making us think it doesn't matter because of the Night's Watch, so he can come back with a really good twist. Am I making any sense?

Besides, I don't think the fact that R+L=J being a cliche negates the fact that it most probably is true. And the argument that 3 KG were in the Tower of Joy acts as so strong that I can't help but KNOW (not believe) that R+L=J. Not to mention, I remember reading somewhere that somebody quoted Ned, who named all of his children [at some point during a self-contemplation in GoT], all but one: Jon. And we all know Ned, he's not like to forget ANY of his children. If somebody can look that up for me (since I'm too lazy to corroborate my own evidence) that'd be great too :)