R + L = J Part XXIV

[Jesstadreamer]

This is a little bit of a Crackpot Theory, but here goes.

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon AND Aegon.

Yes, bear with me. The fellas are twins! When Ned went to Starfall, he had J and A using the return of Dawn as a pretense. He and Ashara were in love, and he knew she was grieving for her child. He then gives her Aegon to raise, and she lives as Lemore. Ned returns with Jon saying he is his bastard. As for Ashara's stilborn, he was the Lannister gift.

Aegon and Jon are *the* Song of Ice and Fire. Also, one is TPTWP (Aegon), the other is AA(Jon). Jon will be reborn after his last bit in DWD as AA.

There is a ton to be elaborated(but I wanted to be spoiler friendly just in case.... like the last page of the last Jon chapter in DWD pg919.

Still alotta kinks..but not tooooooo crazy right?

[Yuki_no_Jon]

at some point, I was thinking as well of the possibility of twins and that would explain Ashara's "suicide". But, unfortunately, I can't see it very possible...

especially a combination of the Stark black with the Targaryen silver: there's no way the silver can dominate!

[LadyMary]

Ned also calls it a "bed of blood" when he's reflecting on Catlin giving birth, I think, to Bran. And Catlin thinks about her "bed of blood" when she thinks about when she gave birth to Robb.

I have a question though, why didn't Selmy go to the wall when Joffrey fired him from the KG? I know if he had everyone would be like, see, we told you, but what reason has been discussed to explain this? I doubt it was a secret. The KG were pretty tight.

I get the impression from Baristan's thoughts that he was not as close to Rhaegar as Arthur Dayne and the other Kings Guards who were at the ToJ. He was at the Trident with Rhaegar, wounded, attended by Robert's own Maester and pardoned. Then he (presumably) went straight to Kings Landing. He may not have even known that Lyanna was pregnant, let alone gave birth to Rhaegar's son who was living in Winterfell for 14 years as Eddard Stark's bastard.

That being the case, I can't see why he would naturally decide to go to the Wall. He swore to serve the monarch of Westeros, the false King forcibly retired him, so he found the last true monarch to serve. He might have chosen Stannis, I suppose, but for whatever reason he didn't...Maybe because he doubted Stannis' fitness to rule or he was just fed up with Baratheons and wanted to restore the Targaryens to the throne.

Anyway, there's no reason to think he know about Jon's true identity.

He knows Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but blames that for the deaths of thousands.

He never even once thinks about the possibility that there was a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is a little bit of a Crackpot Theory, but here goes.

Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon AND Aegon.

Yes, bear with me. The fellas are twins! When Ned went to Starfall, he had J and A using the return of Dawn as a pretense. He and Ashara were in love, and he knew she was grieving for her child. He then gives her Aegon to raise, and she lives as Lemore. Ned returns with Jon saying he is his bastard. As for Ashara's stilborn, he was the Lannister gift.

Aegon and Jon are *the* Song of Ice and Fire. Also, one is TPTWP (Aegon), the other is AA(Jon). Jon will be reborn after his last bit in DWD as AA.

There is a ton to be elaborated(but I wanted to be spoiler friendly just in case.... like the last page of the last Jon chapter in DWD pg919.

Still alotta kinks..but not tooooooo crazy right?

This interesting, but I really don't see how the timeline would work. Aegon is older than Jon by enough of a gap that I don't think it's possible for them to be twins. Aegon was also born, if I'm not mistaken, before Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

indeed he was older. as about baristan going to the Wall, that would be -if nothing else- outside of his sense of honour. even if he did knew that there was a child (which I think he didn't for the reason's mentioned above), by the time Jon took the Oath, from Baristan's point of view that make him not the rightful king. not to mention, when on the small council, he learns about Dany's move and Robert's reaction to them. maybe he was already thinking about the Targ's and Cersei's decision was the last drop into his cup...

[GilraenFenix]

The unanswered question that proves R+L=J to me is Lyanna's death. If she wasn't raped and didn't die in childbirth, how did she die?

I dont' know whether anybody else already came up with this thought:

What if Lyanna did not die because of giving birth to a child? What if the Kingsguard had the order from Aerys to KILL Lyanna - if everything went wrong? (And they did?)

(This would not necessarily mean that she did not give birth to a child.)

Doesn't explain why her promises haunt him so much, or why he feels he's paid a price to keep them, or why he compares Lyanna's pleading to Sansa's pleading for Lady, or why he's been "living lies" for the past fourteen years.

As many others I think that Lyanna made him promise to protect the child. But she may have asked more from Ned.

What if she asked Ned to protect the child AND help him to his birthright - which would be to sit on the Iron Throne?

Ned apparently always supported Robert and never made any attempt towards this. On the other hand Jon was still to young until Ned's death.

I thought about why Ned would still send for Stannis - if finally he had somehow in mind to put Jon on the throne. Knowing that Stannis was a just and honorable man - he might have hoped for a smooth transition. From the obviously rightful King Stannis (who should first have helped to dispose of the Lannisters Joffrey and Tommen) to King Jon?

[The Greatmatt]

I dont' know whether anybody else already came up with this thought:

What if Lyanna did not die because of giving birth to a child? What if the Kingsguard had the order from Aerys to KILL Lyanna - if everything went wrong? (And they did?)

(This would not necessarily mean that she did not give birth to a child.)

So, the 3 of them killed Lyanna, but so ineffectively that she lingered on long enough for Ned & his boys to kill all 3 KG and have a conversation with Lyanna?

Nah. 'preciate your creative effort though.

As many others I think that Lyanna made him promise to protect the child. But she may have asked more from Ned.

What if she asked Ned to protect the child AND help him to his birthright - which would be to sit on the Iron Throne?

Ned apparently always supported Robert and never made any attempt towards this. On the other hand Jon was still to young until Ned's death.

I thought about why Ned would still send for Stannis - if finally he had somehow in mind to put Jon on the throne. Knowing that Stannis was a just and honorable man - he might have hoped for a smooth transition. From the obviously rightful King Stannis (who should first have helped to dispose of the Lannisters Joffrey and Tommen) to King Jon?

I feel like I'm missing something. You're proposing a theory that has R+L=J as a prerequisite and then adds more on to it right? What in the stories makes you think that R+L=J is correct, but that it doesn't explain enough?

[GilraenFenix]

I know ... the 3 KG killing Lyanna ... was a thought that crossed my mind. :idea:

Tried to remember who the three were (but could not) and whether they were likely to kill a defenseless woman ... But you have to look at all the possibilities. :leer:

I am not sure I understand your question ... everything in the story makes me believe that R+L=J (firm believer -> *pointing to avatar*).

I was just trying to find an explanation for the question why Ned was so much haunted by his promise. It seems he had not kept the promise - would he otherwise have been so haunted by it? Maybe. Because it cost him so much (his "honour", Catelyn's pain and mistrust, etc.), yes, it's possible. But I tried to come up with a stronger reason for him feeling guilty.

[Dragonfish]

I was just trying to find an explanation for the question why Ned was so much haunted by his promise. It seems he had not kept the promise - would he otherwise have been so haunted by it? Maybe. Because it cost him so much (his "honour", Catelyn's pain and mistrust, etc.), yes, it's possible. But I tried to come up with a stronger reason for him feeling guilty.

I think the fact that Ned is committing treason and lying to all the people he loves is enough to make him feel guilty.

[Eggplant Wizard]

You know, the Jon and Aegon as twins theory would be pretty cool, that would make sense with all of the speculation surrounding Lemore.

[GilraenFenix]

I am racking my brain who or what Lemore is ... I obviously missed something when reading? Or is this something from ADWD???

[The Greatmatt]

I don't know if this is the right place to ask this but why is this line of speculation so strong and where did it come from? I've just finished ADwD and have read all the other books twice in the last year but until I came on this website, R + L = J never crossed my mind. I just kind of went with the idea that Jon's mother was probably a camp follower Ned slept with while he was away fighting. It always seemed to me that Ned had regretted actions he took i.e sleeping with someone outside of his marriage. (altho by now, I should have twigged how the novels work. It's easy to write prophecies when you know what's going to happen :) )

I don't know how it all started on these boards as I'm a relative n00b. I get the impression though that it's been around for a very long time, and I believe it since I went in that direction with ASOS, which was published 11 years ago. Add in that the clues were there from AGOT, so the theories are probably older than that.

I realize in the last few threads I keep talking about my own thinking, but partly it's because I feel like I'm not expressing myself well. Going to try one more time:

-I read AGOT and didn't internalize the Tower of Joy stuff at all. I basically bought Robert's narrative hook, line, and sinker, and when we learned of Ned coming across a dying Lyanna, I just figured Rhaegar had done something to her because he was insane like his father. Regarding Jon's parents at this point, I basically had no reason to dispute that he was Ned's bastard and it was just a question of whether his mother was Ashara or Wylla.

-I read ACOK and had no paradigm shift, but did feel increasing uncertainty about what was going on with Rhaegar with Dany's shade of the evening trip. Rhaegar being obsessed with prophecy didn't make me think he was sane, but it did make it seem like there was more to the story. Still thought Jon was Ned's bastard.

-When I read ASOS, and we got Barristan's perspective on Rhaegar and his father I had a Kaiser Soze moment where all of a sudden you simply know that you have to go back and think through everything in your mental schema while re-evaluating how reliable each narrative was. If someone who knew Rhaegar & the Mad King well sees them being nothing alike, and Rhaegar as a very good man, then the idea that he purposefully hurt Lyanna just isn't a reasonable assumption to make.

-So then the question becomes: What's the most likely reason Lyanna died? Child birth came to my mind. It's a common way for women to die before modern medicine, and the description of the scene not only fits, but GRRM makes a point of using the same phrase "bloody bed" there that he used other places to describe child birth. This then becomes the clear best theory.

-Then comes the question of what happened to the child. Of course it's entirely plausible that a child could die during the birthing process, but 1) pretty unlikely Ned doesn't mention that part in his flashbacks if Lyanna's clutching a dead baby, and 2) We have a major character in Jon with parental mystery born right around the same time as all this is happening who Ned then brings home with him. Once again, we have a clear best theory that answers the mysteries strongly.

-The last thing that really made me convinced was re-thinking about Ned's promise to Lyanna. It seemed odd that Ned would be haunted by the "cost" of a promise to Lyanna that just involved him acting pretty normal. For example, "Promise me you'll bury me at Winterfell" is not something to feel guilty about. Even, "Promise me you won't tell Robert I actually loved Rhaegar" is no biggie. On the other hand, taking R+L's baby and raising him as your own without telling absolutely anyone of his true origin truly is a soul searching promise to make someone take.

So after all that I was convinced.

Now, then there's the aspect involving the Kingsguard which I didn't even think about. Why were there 3 KG there when the only remaining Targs are in Dragonstone? This is actually the place where GRRM gives perhaps the most heavy handed clues, but I NEVER got them until I went on these boards. Ned talks to the 3 KG and is basically "What in the hell are you guys doing here? It doesn't make any sense."

I think as readers getting this theory on their own, much of it depends on a combination of 1) obsession and 2) luck. Obviously if you started reading the books back in the day and have read them several times, that's going to make you ponder all the details more. I'm more on the lucky side where a particular fact in the books made me go "Wait, that means I can't actually rely on anything I thought I knew", which then threw me over on to the obsession side as I tried to re-examine things from scratch.

[ceo408]

GilraenFenix:

She's a character in ADWD

[Elenya Westerling]

I am racking my brain who or what Lemore is ... I obviously missed something when reading? Or is this something from ADWD???

A character from ADWD :)

[CatrionaX]

OK, my twopennorth!

This is copied from the article that zmflavius has put a link to on page 15:

"1) The Story

Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off her, Rhaenys and Aegon. Yet the marriage was political, and at the Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his true love--Lyanna Stark. Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne. There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child. Somehow, Eddard and his battle companions discovered Lyanna's location. They assumed that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free will. Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland Reed are left alive. Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has given birth to the baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she is dying. She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child's true parentage to anyone, lest Robert's hatred of Targaryens lead him to kill the child. Then she dies. Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur Dayne until he was killed in the fighting. There, perhaps Eddard and Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon's mother, to protect Jon. Also, Ashara kills herself. Eddard then rides north with Jon, claiming the son is his and Wylla's to protect Jon from Robert's Targaryen hatred."

This is where my doubts on R+L=J come in - the practicalities. Rhaegar is a Prince of the Realm and Lady Lyanna Stark is a high-born lady. And they just run off together? FOR OVER NINE MONTHS? And no-one else, in the entire Kingdom, notices? Didn't his wife or her family have anything to say about their prolonged disappearance? It's a hell of a long dirty weekend and a hell of a long time to be abducted! Are they on their own in the Tower of Joy or do they have any servants? All high-born women seem to be surrounded by female assistants so you assume Lyanna would have too. Don't any of them have anything to say about this situation?

Secondly and most importantly, no-one else, ever!, notices that Lyanna's got a bun in the oven? Hello? Have you ever seen a heavily pregnant woman? When I was pregnant with Thomas, I looked like 2 people! You certainly couldn't miss that I was expecting! Does anyone notice her vomiting copiously for a few months or expanding rapidly? Does she ever see a maester or midwife during her pregnancy? The Seven Kingdoms seem to be full of gossip, slander and stories but Lyanna's dishonour and Rhaegar's bastard son is completely unremarked upon?

Perhaps my personal intimate knowledge of pregnancy (having enjoyed 18 months of it) is slanting my views and I'm being too practical but it just seems to me that for R+L=J to be true requires a cover-up of almost epic proportions. There must have been several people who would know the truth but no-one ever says anything?

Can't wait to hear your thoughts x

[Dragonfish]

This is where my doubts on R+L=J come in - the practicalities. Rhaegar is a Prince of the Realm and Lady Lyanna Stark is a high-born lady. And they just run off together? FOR OVER NINE MONTHS? And no-one else, in the entire Kingdom, notices?

The kingdom was too busy fighting a war to really care.

Although at one point, Aerys did command his people to find Rhaegar so he could make him Hand, and no one knew where he was. This was just before he made Connington Hand, I believe. Based on this, I think it's fair to say that wherever Rhaegar was, it was not a well-known location and probably had very few people if any. The ToJ fits the bill, but it could have been any old place.

Also, Rhaegar actually came back a few months into the war, so he wasn't truly gone the whole time. The only real puzzle on people's minds would be where he "kept" Lyanna, but again, that wouldn't be high on their list of "things to figure out" because they were still trying to put down a pretty major challenge to Targaryen rule.

[Urien the Ragged]

if R + L = J is correct, would Ned really be lying to Catelyn (or Jon himself, for that matter) if he says:

1. Jon is my son

2. Jon is a bastard

3. Jon is my blood

if, R + L = J, Jon still is Ned's adopted son, I believe that Theon is even referred to as Ned's son by someone, I can't remember who, but that's not important. Jon is, for all intents and purposes, still Ned's son, even if he is not his biological son.

Last time I checked, Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married, so Jon, is, in fact, a bastard.

Last but not least, Ned would be Jon's biological nephew.

None of these are lies unless Ned admitted to Catelyn that Jon is, specifically, his bastard.

[Urien the Ragged]

This is where my doubts on R+L=J come in - the practicalities. Rhaegar is a Prince of the Realm and Lady Lyanna Stark is a high-born lady. And they just run off together? FOR OVER NINE MONTHS? And no-one else, in the entire Kingdom, notices? Didn't his wife or her family have anything to say about their prolonged disappearance? It's a hell of a long dirty weekend and a hell of a long time to be abducted! Are they on their own in the Tower of Joy or do they have any servants? All high-born women seem to be surrounded by female assistants so you assume Lyanna would have too. Don't any of them have anything to say about this situation?

first of all, people noticed. Brandon rode to King's Landing, to the complete horror of Hoster Tully, to challenge Rhaegar to a duel, but was thrown in jail, his father burned alive, and Brandon himself ended up strangling himself trying to free him.

people noticed, but no one knew where she was. it is not mentioned if she has attendants at the ToJ, perhaps the Knights of The KingsGuard were her attendants there.

Secondly and most importantly, no-one else, ever!, notices that Lyanna's got a bun in the oven? Hello? Have you ever seen a heavily pregnant woman? When I was pregnant with Thomas, I looked like 2 people! You certainly couldn't miss that I was expecting! Does anyone notice her vomiting copiously for a few months or expanding rapidly? Does she ever see a maester or midwife during her pregnancy? The Seven Kingdoms seem to be full of gossip, slander and stories but Lyanna's dishonour and Rhaegar's bastard son is completely unremarked upon?

Perhaps my personal intimate knowledge of pregnancy (having enjoyed 18 months of it) is slanting my views and I'm being too practical but it just seems to me that for R+L=J to be true requires a cover-up of almost epic proportions. There must have been several people who would know the truth but no-one ever says anything?

Can't wait to hear your thoughts x

if she was sequestered at the ToJ and attended to by 3 Knights of The KG, Knights that all died, yeah, I doubt anyone would have noticed. It's likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna conceived Jon before the "kidnapping" and Rhaegar sent her away from anyone not sworn to absolute secrecy (3 of the most honorable knights the KG has ever had, knights who would not betray their prince) to hide her pregnancy.

there doesn't have to be anyone else that knows. I personally think that Howland Reed is the only one living who knows, but since Varys seems to know everything, he may know as well. Varys can keep secrets when it benefits him. It's possible that Selmy was told by one of his KG brothers, which would kind of make sense.

[Dragonfish]

Last time I checked, Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't married, so Jon, is, in fact, a bastard.

Not necessarily. Rhaegar and Lyanna could have secretly married, using the Targaryen history of polygamy as a pretext. That would certainly explain why the Kingsguard were at the ToJ when the supposed new king was on Dragonstone.

[corbon]

if R + L = J is correct, would Ned really be lying to Catelyn (or Jon himself, for that matter) if he says:

1. Jon is my son

2. Jon is a bastard

3. Jon is my blood

...

None of these are lies unless Ned admitted to Catelyn that Jon is, specifically, his bastard.

The lie to Catelyn is letting her believe that he has a bastard at all, that he betrayed their marriage bed, that he brought another woman's son (by him) for her to raise, that that other woman was so important to him that he wouldn't even permit discussion of her identity.

She's lived for 15 years with that hanging over her.

Jon has lived with her for 15 years with that hanging over both of them.

It is unnatural, unfair, and evidently a strain, though mostly they all take it in their stride.