R + L = J Part XXIV

[GreenEyesDave]

it can easily being "protection for the child" either that was Rhaegar's or it was another's.

but I'm under the impression that Lyanna had the fight in her and was "deadly" in her own way... so Rhaegar seems the most rational choice...

In addition, the child to be Rhaegar's doesn't deny that she would want to be burnt like the Targaryens.

for the child to be legimatate they could have been married under the weirwoods. the north's way.

in addition, how to protect the child if she claims the Targ ethics for herself? that would be an open provocation.

last but not least, if she'd asked Ned to take the child to Winterfell and he consented then her be buried there would only mean that she would stay closer to her child that she never had the opportunity to get to know

What does the her being deadly have to do with her and Rhaegar being together though ?

The other bit it seems to me that if you were willing to through all of the realm into chaos to be with your supposed belove then why not be wherever Rhaegar is, theres the chance she asked Ned to bury Rhaegar with her but I have yet to see any indication that he did that (lookin forward to Howland Reed settling this or at least clearing it up because it could yield a lot of answers) or whether or not Ned would even allow the man whom cost his sister her life, his brother and fathers life, put the realm in complete chaso and didn't put a end to it ultimately leading to her death to even be awarded that honor. Like i said if your went that far Lyanna why stop there.

The last part is simply to be with her babe wherever he is or where he goes, as the mother she wants to be close to her son, regardless if he is dead or alive.

[GreenEyesDave]

Your version has far more speculation than the original R+L=J theory, very little basis in the text and you're pretty much creating an entire plot IMHO. Is there anything you can quote from the text to back it up?

Well to be honest what text do we have the definently has COMPLETE proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together, the bits and pieces I mentioned in my theory isn't based on what the chacacters believe is true so much does it take into account the natures of the people in question, the history of what had happened leading up to the events, how much little is truly known of there relationship and not from a source that only heard about through rumor but actually knows it all (other then Eddard only Howland Reed knows the truth and we haven't heard anything from him) , and tying together or bits and pieces such as motivation and characteristic of others in the area and time of said event. Theres simply not enough CONCRETE and INCONCLUSIVE evidence to make me strongly think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were a couple. What we know is that someone wanted to through the realm into chaos to remove Aerys and possibly the other Targs (I think this might be Varys and Illyrio first plot), groom some other possible ruling candidates to make the realm whole again (Aegon and Dany) and fix things so the "madness" doesn't come around again.

it simply memories of things people remember about Rhaegar and Lyanna and being under the impression they loved each other. I don't see it.

[GreenEyesDave]

Look bottom line in all this is that I'm trying to paint a picture that has some strings tied to what I theorize happening rather then what is being given right now. The info has bare hints that are rather vague and the characters that it concern simply don't go into what they do and how they do it. Your perfectly within your right to think R+L+J but me personally I think there is far more to it then what is being hinted at. Thats just my thoughts on the matter

[LadyMary]

Well to be honest what text do we have the definently has COMPLETE proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together, the bits and pieces I mentioned in my theory isn't based on what the chacacters believe is true so much does it take into account the natures of the people in question, the history of what had happened leading up to the events, how much little is truly known of there relationship and not from a source that only heard about through rumor but actually knows it all (other then Eddard only Howland Reed knows the truth and we haven't heard anything from him) , and tying together or bits and pieces such as motivation and characteristic of others in the area and time of said event. Theres simply not enough CONCRETE and INCONCLUSIVE evidence to make me strongly think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were a couple. What we know is that someone wanted to through the realm into chaos to remove Aerys and possibly the other Targs (I think this might be Varys and Illyrio first plot), groom some other possible ruling candidates to make the realm whole again (Aegon and Dany) and fix things so the "madness" doesn't come around again.

it simply memories of things people remember about Rhaegar and Lyanna and being under the impression they loved each other. I don't see it.

It's canon that Lyanna disappeared and was believed kidnapped by Rhaegar. Even Rhaegar's friends and family do not dispute that he loved her and ran off with her - although there seems to be a disagreement about whether it was kidnapping or not. The alternative is that Robert and Rhaegar fought a bloody battle for no good reason and the Kings Guardmen were guarding Lyanna in Dorne for reasons completely unknown.

We have Selmy remembering

that Rhaegar 'loved his Lady Lyanna...'

. We have Daenerys remembering the story she'd heard, that Rhaegar ran off with Lord Stark's daughter and

how romantic it was

. We have Ned's memories of Lyanna on her deathbed clinging to the wreath of dead flowers that Rhaegar had given to her at Harrenhal. We have the song written about Robert and Rhaegar fighting in the Trident for the woman they both loved.

It's circumstantial evidence. Maybe that's not good enough in science, but this is fiction. Surely by the end of this series we will know all there is to know, but GRRM still has some secrets that he did not wish to expose at this point in the story. However, the author has given tantalizing hints that the history of Rhaegar and Lyanna is much more complicated than what Robert wanted to believe.

ETA:

And what accounts do we have that SAY Lyanna willingly ran off with Rhaegar, all it mentions to me is a RUMOR stated that Rhaegar had kidnapped her and this kidapping resulted in the war that would end the Targs rein of madness on the throne and allow someone else to sit it instead of hoping the gods would be good and give them and thousand years of piece in the realm for the next few decade rather then leaving it up to the equally possible chance a madman would sit the throne. It mentions nothing about Lyanna falling in love with Rhaegar at least to my knowledge.

This is interesting in that it lays out a theory that is even less supported by the text than R+L=J. Multiple sources in the story confirm that Rhaegar ran off/eloped with/kidnapped Lyanna Stark. Some were friends and admirers of Rhaegar, some were enemies. Ned doesn't dispute it. Robert believed it and fought Rhaegar to death over it. If Rhaegar had not taken Lyanna, surely someone would have come forward and said so, or there would have been even a hint somewhere in the text, in Ned's memories that Lyanna disappeared on her own and not with Rhaegar. As it is, there had to be a reason that Brandon believed it and ran off the Kings Landing.

I read a judgment in your statement that the Targaryen Kings were mad and no other Targs could have ruled in peace after Aerys was deposed. Considering that in the 14 years of Robert's rule there was one uprising and just 14 years after his coronation the nation was once again at war, apparently Targaryens who mananged to rule for hundreds of years with only intermittent unrest, were no worse than Baratheon Kings...or fake Baratheons as the case may be.

Of course, this is irrelevant to the question of whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love.

[zmflavius]

What does the her being deadly have to do with her and Rhaegar being together though ?

The deadly bit really is to emphasize her willfulness. Like, you know, plunging a continent into war.

The other bit it seems to me that if you were willing to through all of the realm into chaos to be with your supposed belove then why not be wherever Rhaegar is, theres the chance she asked Ned to bury Rhaegar with her but I have yet to see any indication that he did that (lookin forward to Howland Reed settling this or at least clearing it up because it could yield a lot of answers) or whether or not Ned would even allow the man whom cost his sister her life, his brother and fathers life, put the realm in complete chaso and didn't put a end to it ultimately leading to her death to even be awarded that honor. Like i said if your went that far Lyanna why stop there.

Because she was? Up until the point he left to go warring.

The last part is simply to be with her babe wherever he is or where he goes, as the mother she wants to be close to her son, regardless if he is dead or alive.

Given that Lyanna was dying, this request would be more than a bit creepy.

but I have yet to see any indication that he did that

This, also is a problem with your theory.

Well to be honest what text do we have the definently has COMPLETE proof that Lyanna and Rhaegar were together,

We don't. Hence, why it's a theory.

the bits and pieces I mentioned in my theory isn't based on what the chacacters believe is true so much does it take into account the natures of the people in question, the history of what had happened leading up to the events, how much little is truly known of there relationship and not from a source that only heard about through rumor but actually knows it all (other then Eddard only Howland Reed knows the truth and we haven't heard anything from him) , and tying together or bits and pieces such as motivation and characteristic of others in the area and time of said event. Theres simply not enough CONCRETE and INCONCLUSIVE evidence to make me strongly think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were a couple. What we know is that someone wanted to through the realm into chaos to remove Aerys and possibly the other Targs (I think this might be Varys and Illyrio first plot), groom some other possible ruling candidates to make the realm whole again (Aegon and Dany) and fix things so the "madness" doesn't come around again.

See, the belief that Rhaegar kidnapped her is also based on what characters believe is true. The dagger of concrete evidence cuts both ways. On the other hand, the throw the realm into chaos to remove the Targs theory is complete speculation on the motives of Varys and Illyrio.

it simply memories of things people remember about Rhaegar and Lyanna and being under the impression they loved each other. I don't see it.

Then, what is there to see about your theory?

Look bottom line in all this is that I'm trying to paint a picture that has some strings tied

To tie strings to a theory, you need, well, strings. More than opposite speculation.

to what I theorize happening rather then what is being given right now. The info has bare hints that are rather vague and the characters that it concern simply don't go into what they do and how they do it. Your perfectly within your right to think R+L+J but me personally I think there is far more to it then what is being hinted at. Thats just my thoughts on the matter

And these are our thoughts. You're welcome to your differences; as there isn't any concrete evidence for either theory, as you put it. What we believe we have is circumstantial evidence, which points to R+L.

[Dragonfish]

A: What PG was it because from what I remember it mentions her taking after Elia but never truly goes into full detail, I never doubted that Jon is Lyanna's son, I just doubt that he is Rhaegars.

George was asked what Rhaenys and Aegon looked like in a SSM, with the features of hair and eye color specifically mentioned. He said Rhaenys looked more like a Martell, and Aegon more like a Targaryen.

B: Convulated huh.........sorry but I think it has far more credence then the current "truth" that you and good number of other buy into without thinking over everything and takin GRRMs word at face value concerning the issue at hand.

This is a laughable statement. What textual evidence do you have for your theory? None. Wishful thinking is not a good substitute for good textual evidence. As has been stated, your theory requires far more speculation than R+L=J.

C: Okay lets review then.

1. You say that she crys during Rhaegar's song but I don't think thats because she is was in love with him and lusted for him, I think it has more to do with her feeling on Robert and how she is unsure or conflicted about what future they have together. Seems obvious to me really.

Obvious? Not in the slightest. The only thing we know about this scene is that Rhaegar was playing, Lyanna was crying, and her brother teased her for it. Nothing in the scene suggests that she was really thinking about Robert. You're reading things into these books that aren't really there.

Now, since we don't know what was going through her head, we can't know for sure that she was or wasn't thinking of Robert. But nothing in the scene suggests that she definitely was, in any kind of "obvious" way.

2. By ambilavant you mean she is basically saying that Robert is handsome but that can't change his nature about being a womanizer.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I think she understood that her duty was to marry Robert, but she was apprehensive about it.

3. Or possibly she is afraid, sick, and weakened by her sickness and childbirth and is clutching the flowers for comfort or support. Rhaegar didn't rape her nor bang her but saved her and given that she is afraid for his health and well being and she owes him her life, afraid of what Robert might do to the child if he finds it or what he would do to her, and the outcome of her beloved brother Ned. Can you blame the poor girl for feeling just a little alone and scared at the moment

This is a really big stretch.

4. This could easily mean that she makes quick choices and doesn't think about her actions., this has no credence at all that she ran off with Rheagar more so then it done how she and her niece act. Nothing more.

Ned specifically says that her death led her to an early grave. That means she's complicit in her own downfall. What other impulsive thing could she have done that would have led to her death?

All in All I stil don't believe her and Rhaegar were and item, it seems more to me that GRRM is putting in the IMPLICATION that they are and the fact that everyone and there mother seems to buy into it and the fact that its taken as "the gospel" by so many just makes me thing GRRM is going to pulling the rug out on everyone and surprise them. It gives the illusion as Rhaegars biggest mistake and his soon to be downfall costing him his throne, his wife and children, Lyanna and what issues came with here, and ultimately his life, whereas it to me simply was a mix of unfortuate circumstance, bad timing, and the fact that some felt the Targs were simply to dangerous to sit the Iron Throne any longer and needed new change in Westeros.

Every single character in these books is in agreement that Lyanna and Rhaegar were an item (whether consensually or non-consensually). Robert, Bran, Catelyn, Cersei, Dany, Viserys, Barristan, they all agree. If Martin decides to upend this consensus and reveal that they never were an item after all, it will be a major Ass Pull.

[CatrionaX]

You appear to be missing rather a lot of the story!

Their disappearing together starts a chainof events that leads directly to Robert's Rebellion and the overthrow of the Targaryen Dynasty. So yeah, a few people noticed.

First, somehow Brandon gets word of what has happened. Against the advice of Hoster Tully he rides off to KL with a handful of friends and at at the gates yells for Rhaegar to 'come out and die' (as told by Jaime, apparently an eye witness).

Rhaegar isn't there (he's disappeared remember*) and no one knows where he is. Brandon and his friends are arrested and Rickard is summoned to KL to answer for his son.

Rickard arrives in KL, demands trial by combat, and Aerys unexpectedly ups his madness several levels and selects Fire as House Targaryen's champion. Rickard is roasted alive in his armour, held over a fire, while Brandon strangles himself trying to reach and help his father out, all played out in front of a silent court IIRC.

Mad Aerys demands Jon Arryn send him Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark's heads (both fostered with John Arryn).

John Arryn refuses and raises his banners in rebellion.

There are some inconclusive skirmishes/battles early on, including Robert getting beaten in battle and wounded, Robert Arryn's only son and heir being killed and then the rebels decisively beat the loyalists in the Battle of the Bells.

The Loyalist commander (John Connington) is exiled as penalty for defeat and a proper royalist army is raised as the rebellion is really taken seriously for the first time.

Rhaegar turns up to take command of the loyalist forces, telling Jaime that after the war there will be some major changes (sounds like he will depose Mad Aerys). It seems he has been away down south with Lyanna at ToJ the whole time, out of the loop so to speak, and came back when he got word about the mess Aerys has created. Probably somebody at KL did know how to contact him, but wouldn't tell the king, and it took some time to do so, and time for him to come back.

Rhaegar and Robert meet in battle, Robert kills Rhaegar and the loyalist forces are broken, but Robert is wounded again.

Tywin arrives in KL with his army and Pycelle convinces Aerys to let him in the gates as a friend.

Jaime, the last KG guarding Aerys is ordered to bring Tywin's head to Aerys, while Aerys also orders the destruction of KL by wildfire. Jaime kills Aerys and prevents the destruction of the city.

Lannister troops sack KL, and rape and murder Rhaegar's family. Ned, riding ahead of the main rebel force enters KL at teh same time and beats the Lannisters to the throne room where he finds Jaime siting on the throne waiting to see what happens next.

Robert arrives, is crowned, and approves the murder of the Targaryen children, so he and Ned fall out.

Ned goes south to clean up the remaning loyalists, taking a few castles, relieiving Stannis IIRC etc.

Ned and a small group of his closest friends ride off alone and turn up at ToJ whee the fight the last three KG and then Ned find Lyanna dying in her bed of blood.

.

Wow! I stand utterly corrected.

But in a good way. Thank you very much for taking the time to put all this down. I'm kicking myself now but I had actually forgotten about all these things, which is hard to believe given how awful these events are from Jaime's comments.

This does answer a lot of my concerns about the R+L=J theory...I'm now actually thinking about becoming an R+L=J believer....

but I don't know! I have always thought of Jon as a less important character and just accepted that his parents aren't known. I actually don't want R+L=J to be true because that means that the most important piece of the story isn't in the book and I find that quite annoying!

Thanks again! x

[GilraenFenix]

Wow! I stand utterly corrected.

But in a good way. Thank you very much for taking the time to put all this down. I'm kicking myself now but I had actually forgotten about all these things, which is hard to believe given how awful these events are from Jaime's comments.

This does answer a lot of my concerns about the R+L=J theory...I'm now actually thinking about becoming an R+L=J believer....

but I don't know! I have always thought of Jon as a less important character and just accepted that his parents aren't known. I actually don't want R+L=J to be true because that means that the most important piece of the story isn't in the book and I find that quite annoying!

Thanks again! x

CatrionaX, we DO NOT KNOW YET whether the most important piece of the story is NOT in "the" book.

Remember, there are two or three still to come. I one way or the other GRRM may pamper us with all the details of the story. As a proper flashback or as the narrative of one of the still living POV characters. At least this is what I hope for - as also to me the events in the year before the battle on the Trident and the Kingslaying seem to me the most interesting of all ...

[Urien the Ragged]

Well yes protect Jon from Robert so he doesn't kill him, whether its Rhaegar's or not I don't see Robert letting the boy live with him and Lyanna or he could possibly kill the whelp right then and there. If she had grown to love the babe then I can see something like that happening regardless of the father.

so, Lyanna is too in love with Robert to cheat on him, yet she has a child with someone who isn't him or Rhaegar? that doesn't make sense.

Another thought is to help Rhaegar win the war and see him through. Rhaegar never harmed her nor touched her but it was him who brought her back to the Tower of Joy, helped her trhough her sickness by offering comfort and support to her, and if need be taking the child back to KL once the war is done and squiring him to make sure he is safe from Robert or anyone else who might harm him

yeah, she loved Robert more than Rhaegar but she wanted Rhaegar to win and have Robert executed for treason. This makes even less sense.

take her bones back to Winterfell so she can be with father and brother (pokes another theory in the R+L=J theory, if she loved Rhaegar enough to marry him and give him a child you would think she would rather be buried next to her beloved or have her bones or body burned in Targ custom, she didn't though and she wanted to be left as a Stark of Winterfell not Rhaegar's Other Women)

Rhaegar wasn't buried. And again, your theory makes no sense. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and married and having a child, they obviously went through rigorous steps to keep Jon a secret. Why would Lyanna, after all that, put her son in danger by insisting to be cremated, oddly, in the Targaryen fashion? And I don't follow the logic that implies that since Lyanna loved Rhaegar, that she would love the Targaryen ways. She was a Stark in life and death, even if she wed Rhaegar.

to uphold her honor as a Stark and have Jon be known as his bastard son rather then her born of rape (I could see ned doing that anyway as a means to protect Lyanna's innocence and circumstances). Any of those things really,

as countless others have said before me, you are reaching. it's far more likely that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, and that Rhaegar fathered her child, whether that be Jon or someone else.

[Urien the Ragged]

not to get off the subject here, but do you think that Howland Reed saved Ned's life with his words, rather than with his sword or arrows?

Could Ned and Arthur been preparing to fight a duel that would decide their fates when Reed stepped in and offered a different solution, one that the others in their party couldn't agree to, causing them to turn on Ned and Howland and consequently being vanquished? Perhaps Arthur, Oswell, and Hightower went with Howland to Greywater Watch to help watch the Neck and protect the North? Doesn't make a ton of sense, really, but just a thought. Perhaps the KG knights are still living.

[zmflavius]

not to get off the subject here, but do you think that Howland Reed saved Ned's life with his words, rather than with his sword or arrows?

Could Ned and Arthur been preparing to fight a duel that would decide their fates when Reed stepped in and offered a different solution, one that the others in their party couldn't agree to, causing them to turn on Ned and Howland and consequently being vanquished? Perhaps Arthur, Oswell, and Hightower went with Howland to Greywater Watch to help watch the Neck and protect the North? Doesn't make a ton of sense, really, but just a thought. Perhaps the KG knights are still living.

I think that the possibility that Howland Reed saved Ned with words rather than arms is very intriguing, and very possible. However, I doubt that the KG lived, simply because Ned makes it clear that only two rode away; him and Howland. Furthermore, Ned raises a cairn for each fallen; which he wouldn't if they had lived. The ToJ is a bit out of the way, so I'm fairly certain the cairns were Ned's own personal tribute.

[IAmNobody]

I personally believe R+L=J.

But something has been gnawing at me. Let me summarize.

Now, after Selmy surrendered to Robert at the Trident, he vowed his allegiance to him. After Selmy's dismissal by Joffrey, Barristan wandered around till he decided to find the true ruler of Westeros.

He we find out that Selmy, brave and bold and honest, with no hidden agenda, went to seek Dany, who he seems to truly believe is the rightful queen of Westeros.

Now, here's the problem. Wouldn't Selmy as member of the kingsguard, who was with Rhaegar at the Trident, know that Rhaegar had a child with Lyanna who on the death of Aegon would be the rightful king of Westeros? If Selmy knew it was Jon, why didn't he try to seek him out after Joffrey's dismissal of him? Was it because he already knew that Jon was now at the NW?

If on the other hand, he knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child but didn't know the child's identity, why did he not make an attempt to find out who this child was? Was it because all who could possibly know were all dead anyway? That doesn't seem like something that would deter Barristan the Bold, who would probably hold Varys by his boot and shake out every secret if need be.

Please tell me I'm missing something and that R+L is indeed J.

[Yuki_no_Jon]

Barristan didn't need to know just by being with Rhaegar! probably, he wasn't faith enough (he did knelt to Baratheons). and he seeked out Dany only after his life under the Lannisters was at a stake

[IAmNobody]

But he was part of the Kingsguard. Isn't it the KG's job to know everything and protect everything about the King and his heir?

Besides I can clearly imagine Rhaegar instructing the KG to protect his three children (the three headed dragon) and especially his child with Lyanna cuz' he is the PwwP. It would be foremost on his mind before going into battle in case he didn't survive. He MUST have put safeguards in place to protect Jon(?) (and the 3 lone KGs at the ToJ don't count - what is three against the might of Robert's wrath and army, as we saw?). The very fact that it was Ned who took Jon back home either suggests that all of Rhaegar's plans went completely awry or he wasn't too intent on protecting Jon(?) in the first place. The latter makes no sense, so we must assume the first.

But one of the things that you MUST assume is that he must have told Barristan the Bold something along the lines of "Listen, in case I don't make it but you do, you must do your duty, as a kingsguard and as my friend, and take care of my children. All three of them. That's right... I fathered a child with Lyanna Stark, and the child is important. He is the Prince who was Promised. He will change everything."

Either way, it just makes no sense. Rhaegar must have done something more than put 3 KGs in place. Why didn't Barristan know/not care about Jon?

[Dragonfish]

Minor ADWD Spoiler

Barristan states that Rhaegar didn't trust him with his secrets as much as he trusted Ser Arthur Dayne. So no, I don't think Rhaegar would've told Barristan.

[BloodOfKingu]

so, if r+l=j, what's jon snows real name?

i always thought edd named jon after jon arryn to further hide his identity, so what name did rhaegar and lyanna actually give him? the same names keep cropping up over and over in westerosi family trees, so there's not that many to choose from.

do you think rhaegar would have named him after a targaryan, or did lyanna name him after a stark?

eddard targaryan, anyone?

[Yuki_no_Jon]

well, as about Barristan, even if he did know that Rhaegar was waiting a child (which I think as almost impossible), he could have though that the child died along with Lyanna. do you suppose that in the first days he changed camps he would be huddling the top most infos?

and -as an honourable man- he could just believe that Jon was Ned's. there's no proof that he knows that Ned rode back north with Jon from teh south...

[ceo408]

so, if r+l=j, what's jon snows real name?

i always thought edd named jon after jon arryn to further hide his identity, so what name did rhaegar and lyanna actually give him? the same names keep cropping up over and over in westerosi family trees, so there's not that many to choose from.

do you think rhaegar would have named him after a targaryan, or did lyanna name him after a stark?

eddard targaryan, anyone?

Maybe his name was left up to Ned to decide and he chose a name for a man that he admired. I have another thought, but its ADWD spoilers so I won't post it but maybe someone else has had the same idea and will be able to hide the spoiler (I'm not sure how)

[Elenya Westerling]

Maybe his name was left up to Ned to decide and he chose a name for a man that he admired. I have another thought, but its ADWD spoilers so I won't post it but maybe someone else has had the same idea and will be able to hide the spoiler (I'm not sure how)

Rhaegar naming him after Connington?

[ceo408]

Yes. That's exactly it. It certainly fits, but at the same time its very convenient for Ned. Then again, some probably wonder why he would "waste" the name Jon on a bastard and not name a trueborn son after his foster father.