Spornicus Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I don't think Benjen knows, I think he took the black simply because he's the third son of a lord and inherits nothing, and being a northman, it's honorable to take the black in this situation. I'm almost positive the only person who knows the truth about Jon is Howland Reed, and since Jon's parentage is such a mystery, Howland Reed won't show up until the final book to reveal it. It'll be like Harry Potter being the final Horcrux, and even though it was all but confirmed, Rowling waited until the end of the final book to reveal it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It'll be like Harry Potter being the final Horcrux, and even though it was all but confirmed, Rowling waited until the end of the final book to reveal it. Except 1) The theory didn't come up until the release of the penultimate book. Here it came up with the first book.2) There was plenty of evidence on both sides of the debate. Here there is little to no evidence against RLJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spornicus Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The thing is, almost everyone I've talked to was convinced that about Harry, and if horcruxes were mentioned earlier in the series it would have definitely been like RLJ. Plus, being that it's one of the biggest mysteries in the series, these kinds of things are always kept secret til the end to keep the readers anticipating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summer_stark Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 The more I read everything, the more I believe it, but I have a couple of problems with the theory too--they can be explained away, but still ...I just wonder how Ned could have gone from ToJ to Starfall w/o anyone seeing him. Plus, he stays long enough at ToJ to burn the place down. Are we saying no one saw the tower burning and came to see it? Where was he at the time and where was the baby? Plus, how do they keep a baby alive/fed on this little road trip--I suppose goat milk, but this requires procuring a goat. Plus, the baby has to be exceedingly fragile if she dies in a bed of blood--i.e., if she was alive long enough for the baby to be a little less vulnerable, then it's pretty gross that no one moved her out of the birthing bed and cleaned shit up. There are just so many steps in between him getting to his plausible cover story that I wonder whether several other people know. I mean, at the very least, they would have needed to stop at inns or whatever to rest the baby. I suppose a wayn is possible, one that has curtains, but I feel like this also requires dealing with more people. Maybe Howland is the procurer. But then what happens to the baby during that time? Is he hanging out with Ned at the burned ToJ? Is he with Howland? If so, don't people question why he has a baby with him? I mean, I get that a baby is quite small, and therefore, could be fairly easy to smuggle, but at the same time, babies aren't quiet, require constant care and attention, and therefore require stopping. I know ToJ and Starfall aren't that far away from each other, but I was under the impression that there are mountains in between them, so they'd have to go through or around them--if they went through, that seems a bit treacherous for a baby, and if they went around, that seems like it would take at least a few days. Even if it just took 2 days. Where do they stop that night for shelter? Doesn't someone have to see them who isn't in on it? I guess they could hide their identities, but with Ned carrying Dawn, it seems like someone must have seen them and known--or is it just Ned who rides down--this makes it even more confusing to me b/c how is he taking a baby on a horse--tough to hide that. I'm not saying I don't believe it--it does make sense--I just don't get the logistics of getting from point A to point B w/o anyone, who knew who they were, seeing a baby with them. Even just the townsfolk at Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Plus, how do they keep a baby alive/fed on this little road trip--I suppose goat milk, but this requires procuring a goat. Many people theorize that Wylla as at the ToJ, and she could have acted as the child's wetnurse. As for the rest, I just assumed that a desert/mountainous region was sparsely populated, so there wasn't much danger of people seeing him while he was en route to Starfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyMary Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Many people theorize that Wylla as at the ToJ, and she could have acted as the child's wetnurse. As for the rest, I just assumed that a desert/mountainous region was sparsely populated, so there wasn't much danger of people seeing him while he was en route to Starfall. And even if they did see him, I'm sure Ned had already worked out his cover story by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Many people theorize that Wylla as at the ToJ, and she could have acted as the child's wetnurse. As for the rest, I just assumed that a desert/mountainous region was sparsely populated, so there wasn't much danger of people seeing him while he was en route to Starfall. In this quote from a question GRRM answered it sounds like Jon had already nursed when Ned took him. How does that fit in with the ToJ theory. 1. How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, or perhaps did Wylla have a(nother) kid of her own when Edric was born? Or if Edric was lying, and why didn't Arya call him on it?Edric is stretching the term a little... "milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 1. How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch Lysa did... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 1. How could Edric Dayne and Jon Snow be milk brothers if they are several years apart in age - 12 and 16 or so? Can a nursemaid really produce milk for so long a stretch, Yes, woman can continue lactating long after giving birth, for as long as they have a child suckling. That's usually how wetnurses can stay wetnurses. In this quote from a question GRRM answered it sounds like Jon had already nursed when Ned took him. How does that fit in with the ToJ theory... Edric is stretching the term a little... "milk brothers" more usually refers to two infants of different parents who were nursed simultaneously by the same woman, but Jon had long been parted from Wylla's breasts by the time Ned came along. I believe George is referring to Ned Dayne in that last sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuki_no_Jon Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 who's Ned Dayne? I don't think I ever head of him.... :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 who's Ned Dayne? I don't think I ever head of him.... :S Edric Dayne, the boy Arya met while in the company of the BwB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuki_no_Jon Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 thanks! I know him as Edric. Now that you mentioned it, I do remember Arya's reaction on hearing her father's name. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNinja Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 After re-reading AGOT a sentence in the first Eddard chapter made me wonder about the whole R+L=J theory. The sentence happens when Robert and Eddard were discussing why there were so few Northerners on his journey up from Kings Landing. This is right as they were headed down to the crypts so that Robert could pay his respects to Lyanna Stark.Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!" The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. In context it seems to mean nothing but what got to me was that he repeated the word Snow twice. Especially now that we know that there could very well be something hiding under the name Snow. More specifically, Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, Jon Snow. Assuming what many assume is true and R+L=J, could this sentence have sent shivers down Ned's spine. I love how he puts an exclamation point on "Snow, Ned!". It just makes me think that Ned almost jumped out of his skin as if he thought Robert might know his dirty secret. It must have been even more frightening for him seeing how he was in the spooky crypts of Winterfell with all the remains of his family's past including his beloved sister who he was keeping the secret for. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VivaVictarion2 Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Can someone explain the time frame between The ToJ incident and Elia Martell's death (and those of her children) at the hands of the mountain. I thought ToJ was at the very end of the war, but obviously if this theory IS true then I was wrong...Obviously Jon had to be born before Aegon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elenya Westerling Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Jon was born after Aegon by quite a margin, about a year, I believe. Jon was born 8-9 months before Daenerys, who was born about nine months after the sack of King's Landing. Therefore, Jon was probably born a week or two after the sack. Aegon was dead by then. Elia and her children died before ToJ. Why would you be wrong if the theory is true? Am I missing something or have I got my facts wrong? :S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Steelsong Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Can someone explain the time frame between The ToJ incident and Elia Martell's death (and those of her children) at the hands of the mountain. I thought ToJ was at the very end of the war, but obviously if this theory IS true then I was wrong...Obviously Jon had to be born before AegonActually it is not obvious at all but here is the timeline first. Rhaegar abducts Lyanna to the TOJ and Brandon and Aerys subsequent reactions to it kick off the rebellion. After the time Rhaegar takes Lyanna, it seems as if no one knows where he is. He does return to KL right before the Battle of the Trident where Rhaegar is killed. Ned then takes the van of Robert's army to KL to take the city but Tywin and the Lannisters beat him to it. This is where Elia and her children die. Ned and Robert then head to Storm's End and it is after ending the siege there that Ned goes to the TOJ to get Lyanna. When he gets there he with six friends including Howland Reed, he is met by three Kingsguard members and they fight, leaving only Ned and Howland alive. He enters and finds Lyanna in her famed "bed of blood" and the scent of roses. The theory is that Jon was basically just born as Ned arrived. It seems as if Elia was already pregnant before Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. Additionally in ADWD We learn that after Elia gives birth to Aegon, Rhaegar is told that she cannot have another child but Rhaegar still needed one, since he believed that Aegon was the PWWP who needed two siblings to fulfill the prohphesy. Thus a good indication that Aegon may have been born before Rhaegar ever went to the TOJ. Finally with this sequence of events, Jon is born shortly after the sacking of KL (maybe a month or two given travel time and the stop at Storm's End) and his father's death at the Trident and the death of his half siblings in KL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 After re-reading AGOT a sentence in the first Eddard chapter made me wonder about the whole R+L=J theory. The sentence happens when Robert and Eddard were discussing why there were so few Northerners on his journey up from Kings Landing. This is right as they were headed down to the crypts so that Robert could pay his respects to Lyanna Stark. In context it seems to mean nothing but what got to me was that he repeated the word Snow twice. Especially now that we know that there could very well be something hiding under the name Snow. More specifically, Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, Jon Snow. Assuming what many assume is true and R+L=J, could this sentence have sent shivers down Ned's spine. I love how he puts an exclamation point on "Snow, Ned!". It just makes me think that Ned almost jumped out of his skin as if he thought Robert might know his dirty secret. It must have been even more frightening for him seeing how he was in the spooky crypts of Winterfell with all the remains of his family's past including his beloved sister who he was keeping the secret for. Thoughts? It means nothing. Robert is from the south. He never sees snow, especially since it is officially summer, and has been for around 10 years. Robert is just astonished at the presence of snow, even in the north. It's a pretty big deal for a southerner after 10 years of summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuki_no_Jon Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 well, probably is the latter: just seeing snow. but that doesn't mean that Ned -who knew- can't make the connection. I love seeing the scene from that pov! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Can someone explain the time frame between The ToJ incident and Elia Martell's death (and those of her children) at the hands of the mountain. I thought ToJ was at the very end of the war, but obviously if this theory IS true then I was wrong...Obviously Jon had to be born before Aegon Oh no no no. Aegon was born before Rhaegar ever kidnapped Lyanna. Jon's younger than him by, what, at least a year or so. The theory even goes that it was Elia's health, which prevented her from having any more children, that "forced" Rhaegar to have a child with another woman to fulfill the "there must be three" prophecy. Dany sees this in Clash of Kings in the House of the Undying. King's Landing was sacked before the Tower of Joy showdown, i.e. before Jon was born, in all likelihood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VivaVictarion2 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 i could have sworn jon was older then baby aegon, which would obviously screw w/ the theory...are they the same age/how much older is aegon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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