R + L = J Part XXIV

[Galen M]

Why does Ned think of this promise at the oddest times? Why does he compare Lyanna's pleading to Sansa's pleading for Lady? Why does he think to himself that he's been living lies for the past fourteen years? Why wouldn't Ned simply tell Jon who his mother is? No theory but R+L=J adequately answers these questions.

To play Devil's Advocate, Ned does bury Lady in the North, so there is a parallel there. There are any number of things that could have occured at the Tower of Joy that could cause Ned to live lies. Jon was what, 14, when Ned left, so maybe he felt that Jon wasn't old enough to understand, and that simply a name wouldn't be enough to satisfy him. He'd ask all sorts of other questions. It's not impossible that we have NA=J, and then RL could equal some other baby.

[The Greatmatt]

There are any number of things that could have occured at the Tower of Joy that could cause Ned to live lies.

Such as?

This is the thing for me. Yes, there could be other explanations, but nobody ever seems to give them when knocking the R+L=J theory because, so far as I can tell, no other explanation has been hinted at in the books. I feel like people arguing this way are essentially thinking about everything other part of the puzzle first, and then just brushing off Ned's guilt as "who knows?".

To me, Ned's guilt is a big enough deal that you've got to start there, and when you do, R+L=J becomes by far the most likely scenario.

[starki]

I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone else who poses that solution: What about it would keep Ned from being able to tell Jon the truth? Brandon and Ashara (allegedly) are both dead. If they were Jon's parents, or if Ashara was his mother, why not just say so? If they were secretly married before they had Jon, he would actually be the legal heir to Winterfell, and Ned isn't the type to screw his nephew out of a rightful inheritance. And if Brandon and Ashara weren't married, Jon would still just be a bastard. Same legal situation as if he were the son of Ned and Ashara. So why not tell him the truth, if Ned was able to do so? This is the same guy who confessed his entire plan to Cersei out of his sense of honor. Do you really believe that he wouldn't tell Jon the truth about his mother if it was safe to do so?

Dany's claim to the throne looks like it will be based more on "I have dragons" and less on "I have the legal right." She may have started out believing the latter, but it's developed into an attitude based on the former. There are also developments in ADWD that weaken your argument about a "hidden" male Targaryen making Dany's storyline pointless. I won't say anything else seeing as you haven't read the book, just that it doesn't really work as an argument anymore.

When Ned and Robert visit the crypt, the reader is somewhat led to believe that Ned's promise was to take her back to Winterfell, but when you actually think about it, this makes no sense. She goes from being afraid to being unafraid as soon as he makes his promise. Over being buried in the family crypt? Ned also recalls his promise during very maternal-instinct-based conflicts, namely Sansa pleading for the life of her wolf. It makes no sense for Ned to recall the promise during that type of situation if it was just to bury her in the damn crypt. It's also clear that Ned's promise continues to haunt him and he feels like he's living a lie. It's an ongoing promise. Lyanna is already entombed in the crypt and has been for more than a decade, so why would the promise, if that's what it was about, continue to torment Ned and make him feel guilty?

Finally, about the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard members protect the royal family. They aren't sworn to members of "a big house in Westeros." At the time that Ned and company find them, both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, and the Kingsguard members know it. Their allegiance would transfer to the next rightful heir immediately after the monarch, crown prince and his known children (namely Aegon) were killed. Ned points out that this should be Viserys. The entire conversation between Ned, Dayne, Hightower and Whent subtly suggests that at that point in time, Viserys isn't actually the rightful heir, because if he was, they already would have gone to Dragonstone to protect him. The value of Lyanna as a protection assignment, if they were only there for her as you suggest, ended when Rhaegar died.

Why would Ned rush to tell anyone about the events at the TOJ ? For theoretical purposes - timeline might be tricky, I admit - Jon may even be a child of Robert and Lyanna. Keeping quiet about a Baratheon heir makes plenty of sense seeing as how Cersei is hunting them down when events start in GOT. He was probably about to tell Jon in AGOT, but events turned out differently...but still, there's Howland Reed to fill in the gaps.

Daenerys' claim is very much based on legal rights (unless some Targaryen male heir comes along and/pending a war with competition in Seven Kingdoms). The dragons will just make it easier. I just expect two more people two ride the other two dragons, and I think she may not be the last Targaryen around.

Royal family. I'm sure the others were, but three of them protected a Stark, and a potential wife to the next King. Rhaegar no doubt made sure Lyanna would be safe. With or without a child.

He was Lyanna's brother. Why would he not be haunted by seeing her die, for the rest of his life ? I'm sure Sansa begging for her wolf brought memories of Lyanna.

And I ask what I always ask the proponents of this theory : think what this does for this story. We're lead to believe Daenerys will take the Throne and/or be TPTWP, she gave birth to dragons...and *poof* enters a Commander of the Night's Watch (irrelevant as soon as the Others come over the Wall, or that big horn is blown and the Wall comes down, whichever comes first) and snatches the legal claim from her.

What would be the point ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why would Ned rush to tell anyone about the events at the TOJ ? For theoretical purposes - timeline might be tricky, I admit - Jon may even be a child of Robert and Lyanna. Keeping quiet about a Baratheon heir makes plenty of sense seeing as how Cersei is hunting them down when events start in GOT.

Daenerys' claim is very much based on legal rights (unless some Targaryen male heir comes along and/pending a war with competition in Seven Kingdoms). The dragons will just make it easier. I just expect two more people two ride the other two dragons, and I think she may not be the last Targaryen around.

Royal family. I'm sure the others were, but three of them protected a Stark, and a potential wife to the next King. Rhaegar no doubt made sure Lyanna would be safe. With or without a child.

He was Lyanna's brother. Why would he not be haunted by seeing her die, for the rest of his life ? I'm sure Sansa begging for her wolf brought memories of Lyanna.

And I ask what I always ask the proponents of this theory : think what this does for this story. We're lead to believe Daenerys will take the Throne and/or be TPTWP, she gave birth to dragons...and *poof* enters a Commander of the Night's Watch (irrelevant as soon as the Others come over the Wall, or that big horn is blown and the Wall comes down, whichever comes first) and snatches the legal claim from her.

What would be the point ?

1. When on earth would Robert have gotten Lyanna pregnant? By the time Jon was conceived, according to Martin's timeline, the war had started and Lyanna was already missing. We also have Robert's bastards as evidence of his features' genetic dominance, yet Jon looks like a Stark. He's not Robert's son.

2. It's not that Ned was "rushing" to tell people what happened. I don't think anyone is saying that he was. But going to Starfall gave him the chance to 1. return Dawn, 2. return Wylla, if she was at the Tower of Joy and 3. leave for the north by a secure port. He may have wanted to "beat" Catelyn and Robb back to Winterfell and have Jon's position in the household secure before their arrival, who knows. And this would be true whether Jon was Lyanna's son or not; he would have been born somewhere in the south, and both non-Lyanna contenders for his mother are Dornish or have Dornish ties.

3. I'm not saying that Dany's claim ISN'T based on rights, just that, for the moment, she can carry out her will primarily through the dragons. Your argument was that another male Targaryen would make Dany's story "pointless," and I pointed out that Martin obviously disagrees with this sentiment, based on what he introduced in ADWD.

4. You're trying to talk about the Kingsguard in the context of Rhaegar's orders. I'm trying to tell you that Rhaegar's orders basically became moot when he died. The only reason they would have to still be at the Tower of Joy AFTER Rhaegar was already dead, instead of on Dragonstone with Viserys, is if the real heir was in the Tower. I don't know how to make it any plainer. They also call Robert the "usurper" when Ned gets there; they're certainly not trying to defend Lyanna in the context of her being his future wife, that's absurd.

5. You didn't really defend the idea that Ned has been haunted for a decade and a half because he promised to bury his sister in the family crypt. I fail to see how that would make him feel guilty and like he was continuously living a lie. And that's completely ignoring other circumstantial evidence, such as the blue rose on the ice wall that Dany sees in her prophecy.

6. As to your last paragraph, I'll just say that you really need to read ADWD if that's your main argument against Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son — "a male Targaryen heir makes Dany's role pointless."

7. You still didn't answer my primary question: If Ashara or Wylla is Jon's mother, why wouldn't Ned be able to say so?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To play Devil's Advocate, Ned does bury Lady in the North, so there is a parallel there. There are any number of things that could have occured at the Tower of Joy that could cause Ned to live lies. Jon was what, 14, when Ned left, so maybe he felt that Jon wasn't old enough to understand, and that simply a name wouldn't be enough to satisfy him. He'd ask all sorts of other questions. It's not impossible that we have NA=J, and then RL could equal some other baby.

But he doesn't think of Lyanna's pleading when it comes time to send Lady to the North to be buried, he thinks of it when Sansa is pleading for her life. Sansa pleading for the life of her pet — an innocent — reminds Ned of Lyanna pleading.

As for Jon being too young, this is a country where 9-to-11-year-old boys become squires, 13-year-olds can be kings and knights and castle lords and young teenage girls can be married. I'm not buying "lack of emotional maturity" as a reason.

[Dragonfish]

Why would Ned rush to tell anyone about the events at the TOJ ? For theoretical purposes - timeline might be tricky, I admit - Jon may even be a child of Robert and Lyanna. Keeping quiet about a Baratheon heir makes plenty of sense seeing as how Cersei is hunting them down when events start in GOT. He was probably about to tell Jon in AGOT, but events turned out differently...but still, there's Howland Reed to fill in the gaps.

No, Robert being the father does not make sense. There is no reason why Ned would not at least tell Catelyn and Jon the truth. And the Lannisters had yet to kill any of Robert's bastards at the end of the war. In fact, the only reason Cersei started doing so in ACoK was to get rid of anything that could "prove" her own children's bastardy. No such motive existed at the end of the rebellion. So really, Ned had no reason to fear that the Lannisters would kill a bastard child of Robert's, and thus had no reason not to tell Robert the truth.

All of this, of course, is assuming that it is even possible for Robert to be the father, which I highly doubt, due to the timeline issues that you mentioned.

Royal family. I'm sure the others were, but three of them protected a Stark, and a potential wife to the next King. Rhaegar no doubt made sure Lyanna would be safe. With or without a child.

None of this explains why the Kingsguard continued to protect Lyanna even after Rhaegar and Aerys were dead and the supposedly rightful king was stowed away on Dragonstone without Kingsguard protection. A legitimate of Rhaegar and Lyanna being at the ToJ does explain this apparent discrepancy.

He was Lyanna's brother. Why would he not be haunted by seeing her die, for the rest of his life ? I'm sure Sansa begging for her wolf brought memories of Lyanna.

It's not her death that he remembers constantly, it's the promise that she pleaded with him to make. There is no reason why Ned would be so haunted by a promise to bury her in Winterfell. He fulfilled that promise, it's done, and he has no reason to be ashamed of that. There clearly is something more to this promise, and no theory but R+L=J explains what it is.

And I ask what I always ask the proponents of this theory : think what this does for this story. We're lead to believe Daenerys will take the Throne and/or be TPTWP, she gave birth to dragons...and *poof* enters a Commander of the Night's Watch (irrelevant as soon as the Others come over the Wall, or that big horn is blown and the Wall comes down, whichever comes first) and snatches the legal claim from her.

What would be the point ?

What would be the point if Jon turned out to be Ashara's child? Why would GRRM build up this mystery for so long, only to offer an anticlimactic solution that everyone already knew about? I really see no benefit for the story if N+A=J.

[benadgatemusic]

Why does nobody here want to accept the fact that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard son? It says so in the books! Even in Ned Stark's POV chapters!

[Dragonfish]

Why does nobody here want to accept the fact that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard son? It says so in the books!

Well, yeah, it says so because everyone in the books believes he's Ned's son, because Ned told them he was his son. No one is really arguing that people don't think Jon is Ned's son. We're arguing that there are clues and hints that point to Jon not being Ned's son.

Even in Ned Stark's POV chapters!

Wrong. Ned never thinks of Jon as his son in his POV chapters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why does nobody here want to accept the fact that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard son? It says so in the books! Even in Ned Stark's POV chapters!

1. Haha because the books have never, ever lied or mislead the reader about anything before.

2. Ned calls Jon his son verbally, to other people. He tells everyone that Jon is his bastard. But in his own mind, in his internal monologue, he never refers to Jon as his son. He refers to him as "the boy." When he's imprisoned and thinking about honor and protecting his family, he does not include Jon when he lists his children. When Catelyn asks, he doesn't say, "Jon is my son," he says that Jon is "my blood." It's clear to me that he can't tell her the truth but he's also trying as hard as he can not to lie outright.

When he prays at the heart tree, Ned asks that Robb and Jon grow up to be "like brothers." But if Jon was Ned's son, they would be brothers, even if only half-brothers. Saying "like brothers" implies that they're not brothers.

[benadgatemusic]

^Good points! Thanks.

[An Ironborn Son]

Finally, about the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard members protect the royal family. They aren't sworn to members of "a big house in Westeros." At the time that Ned and company find them, both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead, and the Kingsguard members know it. Their allegiance would transfer to the next rightful heir immediately after the monarch, crown prince and his known children (namely Aegon) were killed. Ned points out that this should be Viserys. The entire conversation between Ned, Dayne, Hightower and Whent subtly suggests that at that point in time, Viserys isn't actually the rightful heir, because if he was, they already would have gone to Dragonstone to protect him. The value of Lyanna as a protection assignment, if they were there for her only as you suggest, ended when Rhaegar died.

That's what never makes any sense to me in this argument. Why isn't Viserys the rightful heir? He and Dany are the only children of the Mad King left at this point. The only thing that I can come up with is that the knights have given up on any sort of orders and are perhaps following some directive given to them by the King before he died.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That's what never makes any sense to me in this argument. Why isn't Viserys the rightful heir? He and Dany are the only children of the Mad King left at this point. The only thing that I can come up with is that the knights have given up on any sort of orders and are perhaps following some directive given to them by the King before he died.

If Rhaegar had a legitimate son who was still living after Aerys, Rhaegar and "Aegon" were killed, then that son would be the rightful heir, not Viserys. In my mind, the very presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy is the biggest red flag that the legal heir is there.

[Galen M]

But he doesn't think of Lyanna's pleading when it comes time to send Lady to the North to be buried, he thinks of it when Sansa is pleading for her life. Sansa pleading for the life of her pet — an innocent — reminds Ned of Lyanna pleading.

As for Jon being too young, this is a country where 9-to-11-year-old boys become squires, 13-year-olds can be kings and knights and castle lords and young teenage girls can be married. I'm not buying "lack of emotional maturity" as a reason.

Well, if Lady was going to die, maybe Ned was just planning ahead.

Also, men come of age at 16 years old, so it's certainly possible that Ned didn't think a 14 year old was ready to learn about his father's indiscretions.

Don't get me wrong, I believe RLJ, but there are valid arguments to be made in favor of NAJ + RL?, it's just that no one ever makes them well thought out.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Don't get me wrong, I believe RLJ, but there are valid arguments to be made in favor of NAJ + RL?, it's just that no one ever makes them well thought out.

Have any then? ;)

[Dragonfish]

Well, if Lady was going to die, maybe Ned was just planning ahead.

But Sansa is not pleading for Lady to be buried at Winterfell. She's pleading for her life, which for some reason reminds Ned of how Lyanna pleaded. I think it's a stretch to say that Ned is "thinking ahead" about where he will bury Lady in this scene.

Also, men come of age at 16 years old, so it's certainly possible that Ned didn't think a 14 year old was ready to learn about his father's indiscretions.

But Jon already "knows" about his father's indiscretion. His very existence is proof positive that Ned had an affair. So it's not like Ned is really concealing anything important by not talking to Jon about who is mother is. Plus, Ned would not have to go into all the details when he tells Jon. All he'd have to say is "your mother was Ashara Dayne." Surely Jon deserves to know something like that?

[Galen M]

But Sansa is not pleading for Lady to be buried at Winterfell. She's pleading for her life, which for some reason reminds Ned of how Lyanna pleaded. I think it's a stretch to say that Ned is "thinking ahead" about where he will bury Lady in this scene.

But Jon already "knows" about his father's indiscretion. His very existence is proof positive that Ned had an affair. So it's not like Ned is really concealing anything important by not talking to Jon about who is mother is. Plus, Ned would not have to go into all the details when he tells Jon. All he'd have to say is "your mother was Ashara Dayne." Surely Jon deserves to know something like that?

I'm not going to argue about Lady, because I agree with you. However, saying "Ashara Dayne" is not enough. Won't Jon ask, "Why did you do it? Didn't you love Robb's mother?" etc? Maybe 14 y.o. Jon is not old enough to hear the answers to those questions. Although, that doesn't explain why he wouldn't tell Catelyn, unless he didn't want her to hate a dead woman, but I'm not buying that either.

[Dragonfish]

I'm not going to argue about Lady, because I agree with you. However, saying "Ashara Dayne" is not enough. Won't Jon ask, "Why did you do it? Didn't you love Robb's mother?" etc? Maybe 14 y.o. Jon is not old enough to hear the answers to those questions. Although, that doesn't explain why he wouldn't tell Catelyn, unless he didn't want her to hate a dead woman, but I'm not buying that either.

Jon can ask those questions, but Ned can answer in as much detail as he wants to. And I simply don't see why Ned would refrain from telling Jon who his mother is simply because he doesn't want to have to answer Jon's questions. That seem kind of selfish to me, actually.

[PatethePigBoy]

The ToJ events definitely point to a son of Lyanna and Rhaegar - the 3 KG, the "bed of blood", Lyanna's unexplained death, neds conversation w/ dayne regarding Viserys - but what would Ned do with the kid? Lyanna was dying and would want her child taken care of, but it was Rhaegars kid and Ned was just recovering from what Gregor did to his other kids and that robert was ok with it. His honor and love of his sis had to make him accept, but he couldn't tell people that the child was targaren. Ned would take the kid home with him to take care of him.

[benadgatemusic]

Ned considered Bran old enough to see the NW rider get beheaded in the first chapter of the book. I think that sets precedence for Ned's views on when somebody is emotionally mature to deal with things like death and, um, moms. Considering that Ashara Dayne killed herself, this therefore pokes a hole in the argument that he wouldn't tell Jon because he didn't think he could deal with knowing that his mother killed herself .

[Phreadde the Mummer]

But Sansa is not pleading for Lady to be buried at Winterfell. She's pleading for her life, which for some reason reminds Ned of how Lyanna pleaded. I think it's a stretch to say that Ned is "thinking ahead" about where he will bury Lady in this scene.

More to the point, Sansa is begging for the life of an innocent, that Lady not to be killed for the "crimes" of a "family member". If indeed R+L=J, it would be completely probable that that argument was made by Lyanna to have Ned promise a subterfuge to spare the life of the innocent babe. If all that is true, then the resonances of Ned's memories would be more than explained.

I also agree completely with the rationale that the KG were at the Tower of Joy to protect the true heir, as this was what they were sworn to do.